PC Shotgun slugs feel unbalanced now with b323

[Kosmic Kerman]

I don’t know what the correct solution is from a balance perspective (increased base damage or increased armor reduction) but I would agree that slugs should not do less damage to a heavily armed target. Who know why this happened but I’m assuming it has something to do with the changes to mod slots and damage added from mods in the most recent release. 

 

[FranticDan]

I don’t know what the correct solution is from a balance perspective (increased base damage or increased armor reduction) but I would agree that slugs should not do less damage to a heavily armed target. Who know why this happened but I’m assuming it has something to do with the changes to mod slots and damage added from mods in the most recent release. 

It's due to the buff that Pumpy and Auto got in b323. Shells got buffed x10 (1 for each pellet) while slugs only got a 1x buff.

Example: Pumpy got a +5 damage buff, so shells do 50 more damage while slugs only do 5 more damage. Auto got a +10 damage buff. Basically, the bigger the buff, the more damage gap between the two ammo types. Auto with slugs does about 44% LESS damage than shells.

The opposite is also true. The Pipe shotgun with slugs is devastating doing 25% MORE damage than shells

 

[theFlu]

If I wasn't, I wouldn't have put the "for each hit" disclaimer in my sentence 

Yeh, I guess it's technically correct, which is the best way of correct of course. But, did you know, saturated fat may decrease your chance of a heart attack.

As for Feral Sense; I don't use it that often, it feels mostly a little artificial. More zeds on occasion, but it doesn't really make the game more interesting, just more strenuous.. or something. When I do, I still stick to a good bow (mostly), or crossbow or a rifle for anything outside "half a room", those things can at least hit reliably. If I'm maining a shotty, I'll just run close enough to hit

 

[BFT2020]

It's due to the buff that Pumpy and Auto got in b323. Shells got buffed x10 (1 for each pellet) while slugs only got a 1x buff.

Example: Pumpy got a +5 damage buff, so shells do 50 more damage while slugs only do 5 more damage. Auto got a +10 damage buff. Basically, the bigger the buff, the more damage gap between the two ammo types. Auto with slugs does about 44% LESS damage than shells.

The opposite is also true. The Pipe shotgun with slugs is devastating doing 25% MORE damage than shells

It's probably something of an oversight now that I think of it.  Before, double, pump, and auto didn't have a boost so there wasn't a reason to look at the code.  Now that they added the boost, it gets added disproportionately on the ammo.  Since they didn't do it before, there was no need to add a special tag to distinguish the difference.

They probably need to add additional code so slugs get the entire boost per shot (so 5 on pump) while the shot gets 1/10 of that per pellet.

Yeh, I guess it's technically correct, which is the best way of correct of course. But, did you know, saturated fat may decrease your chance of a heart attack.

That's me just trolling you at this point.  

 

[theFlu]

That's me just trolling you at this point.  

Indeed; my dietary "may" -statement may not have been an implicit acknowledgement of the possibility..

 

[FranticDan]

It's probably something of an oversight now that I think of it.  Before, double, pump, and auto didn't have a boost so there wasn't a reason to look at the code.  Now that they added the boost, it gets added disproportionately on the ammo.  Since they didn't do it before, there was no need to add a special tag to distinguish the difference.

They probably need to add additional code so slugs get the entire boost per shot (so 5 on pump) while the shot gets 1/10 of that per pellet.

Yeah I'd say so, surely no way it's intentional!
Before the change, slugs were about 5% weaker than shells across the board. Whereas now, slugs get worse in comparison to shells as the tier of shotgun goes up from pipe

 

[FranticDan]

Don't forget the slugs have more range and further damage falloff range.

Slugs damage has been nerfed into the ground with the Pumpy and Auto Shotguns

Since this hasn't been addressed for A21.1, I want to ask the reasoning behind why slugs are WEAKER to soldiers than shells (with the Auto at the very least)?

The info below is with a level 1 character, no points or books read (fresh spawn)





It blows my mind, that a Pipe Shotgun in b317 with slugs dealt more dmg (204.5) than what an Auto Shotgun does in A21.1 (184.8)

 

[Gr.o.m.]

Can you tell mee, at which range did you shoot the soldier boy?

Point blank probably. Where each and every pellet hits and there is no damage drop off because of range.

Please do us the favor and do the same at 5m, 10m and 20m range. Then you might have the answer.

 

[FranticDan]

Can you tell mee, at which range did you shoot the soldier boy?

Point blank probably. Where each and every pellet hits and there is no damage drop off because of range.

Please do us the favor and do the same at 5m, 10m and 20m range. Then you might have the answer.

point blank, and each mod reduces spread so the crosshair was super tight

Range isn't the issue, its the dmg. Range wasn't changed, only dmg

I know WHY this has happened, because each projectile got a dmg buff for pumpy and auto, and since shells have 10 projectiles, shells got buffed 10x more than slugs did.
Which is also why slugs in the pipe is VERY high dmg in comparison to shells, since pipe has a dmg nerf instead of a buff, so the shells got nerfed 10x more than slugs


Before, slugs were great from early game to late game, now slugs are only good in the early game. When compared to shells.
I also want to point out the obvious that slugs penetrate 50% armour, which makes the slugs look even worse when shells do MORE dmg to a 50 armour rating target than slugs that cut that armour down to 25

Pointing out the obvious still, in b217, slugs did over 60% MORE dmg than shells with the Auto, while in A21.1 slugs deal 15% LESS dmg than shells



Counter argument: Would you use AP 7.62 ammo if they did 30% less raw dmg than regular 7.62?

 

[FranticDan]

Here's an extreme example of what I'm talking about slugs being nerfed.
For clarity, I buffed the damage of the Auto from vanilla's +10 and increased it to +50. To help make the dmg difference between shells and slugs a lot more obvious.

Shells, doing a whopping 990 dmg!!!


Slugs doing a pitiful 250 dmg

 

[meganoth]

I assume it is about this line (for auto shotgun):

<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="base_add" value="10" tags="perkBoomstick"/> <!-- damage offset -->




And this line didn't exist in A20 for shotguns while something similar does exist for higher levels of other guns. The initial creator obviously knew of the problem of adding damage to the base damage for the shotgun. Seems like either he forgot why he initially didn't add this line now, or someone new tried to balance it and didn't know.

If they want to cleanly use base_add for the shotgun they probably have to specify the base_damage for shots as the total damage (i.e. 100 for shots) and then divide damage by RoundRayCount (in the C# code where gun shots are handled)

IMHO surely not intentional, needs a bug report. Or maybe @Jugginator is still following this thread.

 

[Gr.o.m.]

point blank, and each mod reduces spread so the crosshair was super tight

Range isn't the issue, its the dmg. Range wasn't changed, only dmg

I know WHY this has happened, because each projectile got a dmg buff for pumpy and auto, and since shells have 10 projectiles, shells got buffed 10x more than slugs did.
Which is also why slugs in the pipe is VERY high dmg in comparison to shells, since pipe has a dmg nerf instead of a buff, so the shells got nerfed 10x more than slugs


Before, slugs were great from early game to late game, now slugs are only good in the early game. When compared to shells.
I also want to point out the obvious that slugs penetrate 50% armour, which makes the slugs look even worse when shells do MORE dmg to a 50 armour rating target than slugs that cut that armour down to 25

Pointing out the obvious still, in b217, slugs did over 60% MORE dmg than shells with the Auto, while in A21.1 slugs deal 15% LESS dmg than shells



Counter argument: Would you use AP 7.62 ammo if they did 30% less raw dmg than regular 7.62?

I don't think you can argue, that only the raw damge matters. Lets assume for a moment the pimps would have changed pelletshells in the following way, without changing the damage: Spread is changed to 180 degree, damge fall off 50% PER meter, to 0 damage for ranges for more than 5 meter. I think we can both agree that that would be a brutal nerv to pellet damage.

Slugs are still verry good. They do more damage at range and at armored targets. And don't forget, that you don't want to shoot at demolishers with shells. 

 

[FranticDan]

I assume it is about this line (for auto shotgun):

<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="base_add" value="10" tags="perkBoomstick"/> <!-- damage offset -->




And this line didn't exist in A20 for shotguns while something similar does exist for higher levels of other guns. The initial creator obviously knew of the problem of adding damage to the base damage for the shotgun. Seems like either he forgot why he initially didn't add this line now, or someone new tried to balance it and didn't know.

If they want to cleanly use base_add for the shotgun they probably have to specify the base_damage for shots as the total damage (i.e. 100 for shots) and then divide damage by RoundRayCount (in the C# code where gun shots are handled)

IMHO surely not intentional, needs a bug report. Or maybe @Jugginator is still following this thread.

I'd hope it is an oversight, because as you can see above in my extreme example, slugs are a joke with base_add =50 when compared to shells
The dmg that shells do is nicely balanced and gets a nice buff with each shotgun tier, whereas the slugs get a tiny dmg increase and the gap between the two ammo types gets bigger and bigger

 

I don't think you can argue, that only the raw damge matters. Lets assume for a moment the pimps would have changed pelletshells in the following way, without changing the damage: Spread is changed to 180 degree, damge fall off 50% PER meter, to 0 damage for ranges for more than 5 meter. I think we can both agree that that would be a brutal nerv to pellet damage.

Slugs are still verry good. They do more damage at range and at armored targets. And don't forget, that you don't want to shoot at demolishers with shells. 

Thing is, the range never changed, at all, only the base dmg. And the dmg is literally the entire point of my post, to point out an possible oversight when they rebalanced all of the weapons and tools.

I used to get excited when unlocking slugs, cause then I could wreck things. Now, they are a waste of time when I can do MORE dmg to ARMOURED targets with shells

 

[Jugginator]

I'll have a look at this at some point soon, but I do want to bring up that damage isn't everything. The fact that slugs are effective from a much larger distance than shells with more accuracy and penetration means that there has to be some trade off, since shotgun shells are only good at a very close range, and if you want ALL the pellets to hit the target you're aiming at then you have to be point-blank -- slugs don't need point blank. Another example, being on top of bars shooting down at zombies on a horde night: with shells, you need to only have 3 - 4 m distance which is risky and mostly enemies may be hit with only one pellet or two - if lucky, more -  while with the slug you can be double that and still hit things with full force. If slugs hit further, are more accurate and more accurate at a longer distance, they do more damage at longer ranges, they penetrate 50% armor and penetrate two targets as a base, AND did more per-shot damage than shells -- why would anyone use shells unless they didn't have any slugs? That aoe is not worth it then. 

 

[theFlu]

why would anyone use shells unless they didn't have any slugs?

Isn't that the case for every ammo type atm, use HiPower instead of normal if you have it, even starting with bows, use iron arrows if you have a forge?

 

[Jugginator]

Isn't that the case for every ammo type atm, use HiPower instead of normal if you have it, even starting with bows, use iron arrows if you have a forge?

Shells are in a different spot because they have AOE, which also is affected by perks. In the cases with hipower and upgraded arrow tips, those are pure upgrades.

 

[Old Crow]

Isn't that the case for every ammo type atm, use HiPower instead of normal if you have it, even starting with bows, use iron arrows if you have a forge?

People use HiPower? I just go for AP, same amount of materials, and helps with armored zombies.

 

[theFlu]

People use HiPower? I just go for AP, same amount of materials, and helps with armored zombies.

Ye, you're not wrong, AP is basically always better. I made the argument with HP as it's a direct upgrade, AP has additional features to invite discussion beyond my point. Somehow I started trying to avoid that...

 

[warmer]

Unless a zombie is deepthroating the barrel of your shotgun, you are very lucky to have every bit of shot hit them. Slug is a guaranteed at center of mass at 5 meters. Huge difference. 

Kill distance is a massive benefit and I think that should be reflected in lower total damage. You are never going to land all shot on a single target at 5 meters unless you are super lucky.

 

[theFlu]

Unless a zombie is deepthroating the barrel of your shotgun

Your overall point is valid, but this is the moment I want my payload to count for the most. Don't really care if the guy 5m away took 30% less damage, I got 300% more loaded just waiting for him to waddle over ...