PC Is ignoring game content the only option?

[meganoth]

I have 4200 hours in this game and have never seen tier 5 of trader quests personally. I've never enjoyed the quest grinding system of this game personally. The changes this alpha have made the rewards way too OP imo. I think I would be happier if the only reward from quests were dukes and then the traders themselves just had better inventory.

Count me in on this scheme. I would be perfectly happy if quest reward would simply be coins. Much easier to balance as well. But I doubt TFP will want to "downgrade" the quest reward system that far.

While we are at it this inspired me to an idea that definitely won't be adopted, but may be worthy of a mod sometime: Once you reached a specific sum (say 7000 dukes) the trader doesn't give you any coins anymore because he is short of them but I.O.U.s from a different trader. You can only collect the money by visiting the right trader and getting the money from him. Same for all other traders. Instead of the 7000 dukes this could alternatively simply replace the rather artifical open trade route quests.

 

[Vaeliorin]

This is actually the opposite that just about everyone here is asking for, which shows very well that people have very different expectations of the game and not everyone can be pleased with any choices the devs make.  You want more from the quest rewards, while most people posting want less.  Though most who want less are focused more on the earlier game so might not care about tier 4+ rewards.

You misunderstand me.  I was brainstorming what may be viable quest rewards if they nerfed/removed weapons and tools from quest rewards, and ways to make T5+ quest rewards worth the time.  I wouldn't mind seeing farming bundles/food bundles/ammo crafting bundles (maybe add a dew collector bundle?) as quest rewards instead of the tools and weapons until maybe you hit T5, and then have Q1-3 for T5 and Q4-6 for tier 6, with it being like 60%/30%/10% for Q1/Q2/Q3 from T5s and similarly for T6.

They'd probably have to nerf the loot in general (why do a T6 when you can just loot a half dozen cars in the wasteland and get a bunch of Q6 gear?) for that to make T5+ quests worth the time, though.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I like the coins only reward as the best idea so far.
 

If the loot within a quest's POI was influenced by some variable that a quest is active, that could be used to increase the chance of providing better loot rewards (but within the quest) while also reducing the benefits of double-dipping.

 

[Archael]

I felt in love and bought the survival horror sandbox game.
Its a shame it went the looter shooter way.
I hate traders and i always tried to ignore them... now its almost impossible

 

[Roland]

Seems to me like the ones who don't like the way things are right now in this particular thread are a majority, not a minority.

Woah, we’re keeping track?

In that case I’ll post to say I like A21 and after going back recently to  retry alphas 9-13 I have to say the recent versions have been so much better. 

 

[BFT2020]

I will post my trader mod tonight, I think it is good enough at this stage for general release.

That sounds excellent. Have you considered doing it in a kind of modular way? Like, giving options to not removing quest rewards, adjusting the time for restocking according to your preferences, etc., and being able to do that in the menu? Is that possible?

It probably is possible, but I don't want to go down that rabbit trail at this point:

• The game is still in development, which includes the UI
  
• I haven't start looking into what this would require in terms of coding and UI changes
  
• I have a lot of work to do on my mods just to get them working in A21
  

I will be including a readme file for the mod along with comments in the xml files to help people figure out what each section does.

 

[Riamus]

Maybe it could work like this:

The first trader offers you tier1 quests (obviously).

When you have completed enough, you get to tier 2 and have the first open trade routes,

both traders will give you tier 2 quests.

Then you have to complete enough tier2 quests for both traders, to get the third trader...then everybody gives you tier 3s, and you have to complete enough for all of them to get to tier 4...and so on.

This would slow down tier progression, and therefore also you will get the good stuff later.

It also would somewhat add to immersion (like the traders all have to "agree" that you're ready for the next step)

And it would end the "I have to start over at tier1 for every new trader" thing, which I think is a bad concept anyway. 

The issue I have with this is that you are requiring a lot more questing to go up in tier with each tier, while each tier has fewer different POI to choose from, so you are getting more repetition.  You are also doing far less low tier quests and so you see very few of the many low tier POI.  I'd rather just see more quests required for each tier.

Also, I don't mind staying over at tier 1 for each trader.  It shows that you need to prove yourself to them.  I would actually like to be able to do the tier completions at all traders, including duplicate traders.

What I could see is having more quests needed for each tier but each time to complete a tier at a trader, the number of quests required for that same tier at the next trader is decreased by 1.  That would slow down initial progression while not making it so much of a grind to complete later traders.

 

[Riamus]

You misunderstand me.  I was brainstorming what may be viable quest rewards if they nerfed/removed weapons and tools from quest rewards, and ways to make T5+ quest rewards worth the time.  I wouldn't mind seeing farming bundles/food bundles/ammo crafting bundles (maybe add a dew collector bundle?) as quest rewards instead of the tools and weapons until maybe you hit T5, and then have Q1-3 for T5 and Q4-6 for tier 6, with it being like 60%/30%/10% for Q1/Q2/Q3 from T5s and similarly for T6.

They'd probably have to nerf the loot in general (why do a T6 when you can just loot a half dozen cars in the wasteland and get a bunch of Q6 gear?) for that to make T5+ quests worth the time, though.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.  That could work okay.  But regarding nerfing loot even more, I don't really agree with that.  I would be fine with nerfing car loot, though.  That would make it harder to get good stuff by just looting cars in the wasteland on day 1.  I don't think cars need to offer any tools or weapons, except perhaps the cop car.

 

[meilodasreh]

The issue I have with this is that you are requiring a lot more questing to go up in tier with each tier, while each tier has fewer different POI to choose from, so you are getting more repetition.

Well requiring more questing to go up in tier, to slow down progression, was the whole point of that suggestion, so...yes.

Repetition, especially for lower tier quests, more depends on where exactly the traders are located (lots of low tier questable pois in the vicinity or not), so maybe yes, maybe not. But why would the number of pois to choose from decrease? I don't get what you mean there. When you have to move around between all traders, you should get more variety in pois overall, even if one trader is placed badly with very few options.

But you're right, just raising the number of necessary quest successes to tier up would do just fine I guess.

 

[Vaeliorin]

But regarding nerfing loot even more, I don't really agree with that.  I would be fine with nerfing car loot, though.  That would make it harder to get good stuff by just looting cars in the wasteland on day 1.  I don't think cars need to offer any tools or weapons, except perhaps the cop car.

Yeah, I'm not saying I'm necessarily in favor of nerfing loot, I'm just saying it's way too easy to get good stuff without any effort if you just run/ride along the wasteland roads so doing high tier quests to get good loot would be kinda pointless.

 

[meilodasreh]

suggestion to rule out repetitive quest pois:

traders couldn't give you individual quests and send you to a specific poi,

but instead kind of a bundled quest like "clear 5 tier1 pois".

Then all questable pois are highlighted on the map, and you choose the 5 different ones you like.

...or there's no such option when receiving the quest, but you just travel around, and when approach a poi you get a little "choice icon" if you want to take this poi as part of your questline or not.

 

[Riamus]

Well requiring more questing to go up in tier, to slow down progression, was the whole point of that suggestion, so...yes.

Repetition, especially for lower tier quests, more depends on where exactly the traders are located (lots of low tier questable pois in the vicinity or not), so maybe yes, maybe not. But why would the number of pois to choose from decrease? I don't get what you mean there. When you have to move around between all traders, you should get more variety in pois overall, even if one trader is placed badly with very few options.

But you're right, just raising the number of necessary quest successes to tier up would do just fine I guess.

Okay, to clarify...

The thing I replied to basically made it so you complete tier 1 at trader 1.  At trader 2, you don't do any tier 1 quests and instead do more tier 2 to complete the tier.  At trader 3, you do no tier 1 or 2 quests but more tier 3.  Etc.  Unless I misread it.  So you will barely do any tier 1 or even tier 2 quests.  Considering that lower tier POI are more plentiful, you are cutting out a lot of content of you do quests but don't really go loot low tier POI otherwise.

What I was suggesting is that you so more tier 1 quests to complete tier 1 at the first trader.  At the second trader, you do one less tier 1 quest to complete tier 1.  At the third trader, it is another 1 less, etc.  So by trader 5, you do 5 less than the first trader.  This let's you avoid having to do a ton more quests while still showing progression because there are more quests to complete for the first trader.

For now clarification, traders aren't done in a specific order.  You can complete tier 1 at one trader at max quests then go to another trader and complete tier 1 quests at one less quest.  If you do tier 2 quests to completion from the second trader, it will be at max number of quests.  If you go back to the first trader and complete tier 2 after completing tier 2 at the second trader, it would be at one less quest.  Think of it as reputation gained that lets you do fewer quests, maybe.

Anyhow, that was just an alternative to the original suggestion that increases quests while not making it take forever to complete quests at all 5 traders and doesn't make it so you don't have to do many low tier quests.  After all, by the time you are doing tier 1 quests at trader 5, you really don't need tier 1 rewards, so you don't need to show the progression at that point of the game.

 

[meilodasreh]

After all, by the time you are doing tier 1 quests at trader 5, you really don't need tier 1 rewards, so you don't need to show the progression at that point of the game.

Yes this is the main reason for me saying this is a bad concept.

When you're at tier 3 for one trader, you're basically geared up well enough to make it rather unattractive to spend time in doing tier ones for another trader. Even if they're close by and short duration, they're still somewhat a waste cause you don't get anything worth the time.

 

[Riamus]

Yes this is the main reason for me saying this is a bad concept.

When you're at tier 3 for one trader, you're basically geared up well enough to make it rather unattractive to spend time in doing tier ones for another trader. Even if they're close by and short duration, they're still somewhat a waste cause you don't get anything worth the time.

That probably depends on the player.  I would not mind being able to do the tier completions at every trader on the map, including duplicates.  But I enjoy questing and the loot or rewards aren't my only incentives.  The quests get me exploring the POI.  Without them, I have little incentive to explore different POI.

I don't know any way to make it worthwhile to do low tier POI for players who don't enjoy questing.  You can't raise the loot rewards because the quests can be completed so easily at higher levels.  Removing the quests just means you have a ton of POI that the player has no reason to ever check out, so that isn't a great option.  The POI don't have room to increase their tier artificially by adding more zombies (infestation is already pushing the limits on many smaller POI), so that isn't really an option.  You aren't required to do quests at multiple traders, so I think that may just have to be enough.  If you want to do them, go for it.  If not, you don't need to.  It isn't ideal but probably the best possible option with how the game is designed.  Personally, I'll do tier 1 quests sometimes just for chance of getting the easy ammo rewards. So there is some incentive there, at least for me.

 

[BFT2020]

Shameless self promotion coming up in 5   4   3   2   1 .....  

 

[ungkor]

I tried giving the 'loot by learning option' a chance.  I started several new games to see how the leveling and crafting progress went, and I have to say I don't like it.

I don't feel like I'm in control of my character's path.   My ability to craft, or play the game like I want to, is basically up to chance.   Having to loot hundreds of books to unlock X crafting is just not fun.  

Maybe go back to basic experience leveling, and then make crafting perks cost more points?   I thought that having level restrictions on certain perks was a perfectly fine way of moderating the progression rate.  

The game is less fun now.   I enjoy crafting and building in equal measures with looting and doing quests.  This change has made quests/looting the only way to progress, and it is just less fun.  

 

[meilodasreh]

But I enjoy questing and the loot or rewards aren't my only incentives.  The quests get me exploring the POI.  Without them, I have little incentive to explore different POI.[...] Removing the quests just means you have a ton of POI that the player has no reason to ever check out, so that isn't a great option. 

Really I don't see why.

The quest reward from the trader is the only difference between doing a poi with or without a quest. (and no zombie indicators for some types)

Why would there be no incentive for you to do the poi as a "non-quest", from the "exploring perspective"?

The poi is all the same in either case, including its loot.

 

[Riamus]

Really I don't see why.

The quest reward from the trader is the only difference between doing a poi with or without a quest. (and no zombie indicators for some types)

Why would there be no incentive for you to do the poi as a "non-quest", from the "exploring perspective"?

The poi is all the same in either case, including its loot.

As it says in what you quoted, the loot and rewards aren't my only incentives.  In other words, they are still incentives.  The rewards may not matter much to me but I still want them.  I'll do quests even if I don't really care about rewards before just running through POI because there are still rewards.  I do run through POI on occasion without quests but it's rare.  The quests give me a reason to go do the POI.

I may be wrong, but I have a feeling that most people who aren't opposed to quests don't explore POI very much if they don't have quests to take them to the POI.  Those who don't want to quest but still want to loot will obviously only go through POI without quests, so those can't really be compared.

 

[vom]

I felt in love and bought the survival horror sandbox game.
Its a shame it went the looter shooter way.
I hate traders and i always tried to ignore them... now its almost impossible

Same.

 

[Archael]

Dont get me wrong. I love that water is more scarce now. I agree with decision of removing jars. but relying on traders in order to build dew collectors is just bad decision.
Maybe we would be able to build dew collectors without water filters, but in this case those would gather water slower, and gathered water is murky water instead of clean.