PC What was the point of the water change?

So you'd need about three collectors running for a day to produce a single drinkable water/glue? That sounds like the distance between my base and the trader would be FILLED with collectors :)
Yes. You could. But it would not be effective. It would require a lot of upkeeping. Imagine walking 200m pressing E and R, and them putting everything on a campfire for boiling down (also, I do think reduce the maximum stack off murky water would be interesting too).  Limiting the maximum stack of murky to 10 or 20 would make is less interesting to hoard murky water from scavenging. 

Don't focus yourself too much on the example number. Think about it how it effects balance. It uses the same logic as preparing glue or gunpowder outside the chem station. You can still do it, but much less effective. You can outcome lesser effectiveness with more raw production. But it does not scale so well. 

Also, how do you make the schematic/recipe available affects this. If you make filters  like craft level unlock. It means you get somehow a linear time to be able to craft and that time will depend if you are improving that crafting, thus, the magazine drop chance. If you make it like a book or a stand alone schematic it will be more irregular to get it done.  It could also be scrapable from filters or sometimes even fridge using the wrench. 

IMO doing so handles some problems:

1) You solve the dependency from vendor. 
2) You nerf dew collectors and make them less scalable. 
3) You nerf scavenging murky water without reducing the amount of collectable murky water. 
4) You can balance how effective it by changing how hard is to make a filter and how hard is to boil down murky water. (This is something the idea of purifying pills could fill in). 

But it also has some flaws:
1) Dew collectors are not rain collectors. They indeed produce pure water but in really slow speeds depending on the humidity. The way I had proposed they are kinda working as a mix of rain and dew collector. I think this is the focus of the @AllTheGoodNamesAreInUse. Using a purifier inside the dew collector feels like it is a rain collector. 
2) There are currently no mechanical in place for this.  I though of using a similar thing as fuel to a campfire. But I don't know how hard is to do that in game, how much effort it would take. It so easy as a player to propose this, but not as easy to a dev to make it. 
3) And it also comes with the discussion that. Worrying about food and water is a early game thing only or not? Do players want to be building steel blocks, crafting AP and hi power ammo and still worry about water? 
 

 
Imagine walking 200m pressing E and R
It would be tedious, pointlessly so, for sure. But if it works, I'd begrudgingly do it - for as long as I wasn't happy with the stored stacks I have. In the current iteration I chill with water collection once I have about 50 waters in my storage box as I don't really plan on using masses of glue, myself. For people who are using plenty for explosives (including myself depending on the playthru) or whatnot .. different story.

For the tedium of boiling water, I don't store murky at all, I just process it whenever I show up at a camp fire with any in my inventory. No point in waiting with it, it's all going into the camp fire anyway.

For the overall system, I just have trouble seeing what is a requirement and what is a workaround.. Everything affects everything, but I'd rather try to solve the game play by starting with the basics: lake water is as drinkable as any form of rain or dew. Especially if you allow actually drinking it.

What you require to purify it can be made into a resource sink and a gameplay element, coal filters, reverse osmosis devices, distilleries, electrocution-by-lightning, radiation chambers, all fine by me. I don't know the nature of the pollutant, and we don't know if our character knows either. Just ... don't let me drink from a lake and be stumped with the concept of finding H2O to make glue. I even have my own bucket.

Make glue production require "beer"? (as beer is used as a replacement for "ethanol" as evidenced by the med kit recipe)

Make duct tape loot only? (slapping horse glue on a piece of cotton string to then tape your AK back together is a bit of a stretch already... :) )

Push glue recipes further down the tech tree, leave drinks for loot only and disable lakes from the world - the outer border water is seawater, allow for a desalination installation in late game if you so choose.

All kinds of things are possible, but it'd require some design. Making drinking water a "get 7k dukes" problem, and glue a "get 7k more dukes" sounds like a lack of design to me, so I can't really help improve upon it. The goals just aren't tangible enough.

 
For the overall system, I just have trouble seeing what is a requirement and what is a workaround.. Everything affects everything, but I'd rather try to solve the game play by starting with the basics: lake water is as drinkable as any form of rain or dew. Especially if you allow actually drinking it.
I would put it that the requirement for this change is make water consumption and production challenging and container management a bit less complex. If you feel like it demands more effort, it means they went on the right direction with this one. If you feel like the solution is only based on a purchase from the vendor (I think this is the first item they restricted that way) I hear you, it feels... not in sync with the whole game.

The filter mod for helmets and head pieces are a workaround, I suspect. It is a way of reducing the overhead of the water management for consumption. I don't use it, but I don't feel like it is a harm. 
 

 
The filter mod for helmets and head pieces are a workaround, I suspect.
The helmet mod is more likely just an oversight, should've disabled it from the game IMO. If for nothing else, to see how the base water economy actually runs. I've gotten the mod in all my starts and I haven't gotten past day 22 yet. Usually within the first week.

Demands more effort.. I dunno really. A little bit of more pre-planning mostly as cooking now takes ages even with doubling the campfires. I'm used to run around looting/questing one trader up to Tier 5's, so the water changes don't really show at all, the helmet mod negates the small effect it might've had. I just spend my first X dukes on filters; or on this latest run I just took 2 filters as Tier 1 Complete -reward and haven't missed a thing. Just doing the trader loop to get everything, as has been The Way for a couple patches already.

The game is slower for the crafting changes, which basically hides any effect the water changes would've had - I have no use for glue, so I have no need for water... :)

 
I think the main point about water is that it is used to create duct tape which this gane demands a lot of for certain recipes. You need jars of water to create. You do not need bowls or cans to create anything but food, no need to re use them. 

Making water hard to get is fine. They need to alter the duct tape recipe then. Take the water out of duct tape. Problem fixed. 

 
Roland said:
I’m certain of the water survival “gameplay” you desire since anything that is added that creates a challenge or a struggle or tough choices gets labeled by you as anti-player hostility by the developers. To you, a water filter hat that removes any water struggle whatsoever is the best thing ever so someone must by lying if they claim to not use it because they wanted to use dew collectors and have to make choices about their limited supply of clean water whether to use it for drinks, cooking, or crafting— at least for a time. 
 

Also, how does me admitting that I sold the filter mod both times I found it invalidate anyone’s point?  The person I responded to criticized the existence of the mod since it instantly solves the water issue just like filling up glass jars from a lake would. My admission only confirms that point. I was essentially agreeing that the filter mod wrecks TFPs new water gameplay loop—which is why I sold them. 
 

But even beyond that, I was simply sharing my own experience and desire to play the intended design which I felt the filter mod would bypass and I didn’t want to do that. That was just me in two of my playthroughs. It doesn’t invalidate how anyone else likes to play. If you let out a huge whoop when you find one on the first day because that is the water survival gameplay you enjoy that doesn’t invalidate me or my point. 

 


Except the filter mod doesn't remove any water struggle - you still need to have jars or water for crafting. If you feel the mod wrecks the intended design, maybe suggest to them that they remove said mod?

 
The reasons I've found for the change:

1. This is a video game, logic belongs elsewhere. Turn off brain, follow prompts.

2. Generated tedium. Who doesn't like the grind of doing a lot of work for little reward?

3. The playable character is dumber than the zombies and would drown himself/herself if they tried to fill empty jars.

4. Dew collectors reduce global warming as water vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas in the atmosphere.

5. Balancing is hard work and an overhaul is just simpler.

 
Except the filter mod doesn't remove any water struggle - you still need to have jars or water for crafting. If you feel the mod wrecks the intended design, maybe suggest to them that they remove said mod?


It doesn't remove ANY water struggle? Are you sure you didn't mean all?

I agree that you still need to gather water for crafting and cooking so there is still a need for it but when none of it has to be used for drinking it significantly reduces the opportunity for tough decisions and eases the struggle quite a bit. I did suggest that they remove the mod but keep the schematic or add it to one of the magazine trees. But, their plan for the game has always been to offer a variety of pathways to players-- even if some are less efficient than others. They are probably okay with someone finding it early like I did. The player can then choose to keep it or sell it depending on how they want to play. So I have no idea whether they would agree with my suggestion or not. They didn't say "Good point, Roland. We'll get that in" And seeing as how I suggested it long before experimental was released it seems like they probably aren't going to go with my suggestion- at least until they see how it goes with everyone.

But then, you probably think I'm making up this scenario anyway.... ;)

 
It doesn't remove ANY water struggle? Are you sure you didn't mean all?

I agree that you still need to gather water for crafting and cooking so there is still a need for it but when none of it has to be used for drinking it significantly reduces the opportunity for tough decisions and eases the struggle quite a bit. I did suggest that they remove the mod but keep the schematic or add it to one of the magazine trees. But, their plan for the game has always been to offer a variety of pathways to players-- even if some are less efficient than others. They are probably okay with someone finding it early like I did. The player can then choose to keep it or sell it depending on how they want to play. So I have no idea whether they would agree with my suggestion or not. They didn't say "Good point, Roland. We'll get that in" And seeing as how I suggested it long before experimental was released it seems like they probably aren't going to go with my suggestion- at least until they see how it goes with everyone.

But then, you probably think I'm making up this scenario anyway.... ;)


I meant exactly what I said. I replied to you when you had said "To you, a water filter hat that removes any water struggle whatsoever" Are YOU sure you didn't mean all?

 
I meant exactly what I said. I replied to you when you had said "To you, a water filter hat that removes any water struggle whatsoever" Are YOU sure you didn't mean all?


I see the disconnect. I said "any water struggle whatsoever" which is synonymous with "all". The whatsoever qualifies the word any. I probably should have just said all. Sorry.

When you responded you left the "whatsoever" off which changed the meaning. So I did mean all when I posted which probably is not fully correct, upon reflection, since I afterward agreed with you that there is still a need to gather water for crafting. But it is a significant reduction in the struggle since all drinking needs are covered and there never is again a need to choose how to prioritize the use your water.

So when you said that the dew-collector doesn't remove any water struggle is that what you really believe or do you admit that the filter does undermine the water struggle if a player chooses to use it?

 
I see the disconnect. I said "any water struggle whatsoever" which is synonymous with "all". The whatsoever qualifies the word any. I probably should have just said all. Sorry.

When you responded you left the "whatsoever" off which changed the meaning. So I did mean all when I posted which probably is not fully correct, upon reflection, since I afterward agreed with you that there is still a need to gather water for crafting. But it is a significant reduction in the struggle since all drinking needs are covered and there never is again a need to choose how to prioritize the use your water.

So when you said that the dew-collector doesn't remove any water struggle is that what you really believe or do you admit that the filter does undermine the water struggle if a player chooses to use it?


I said the filter mod (the one that goes in your headgear) doesn't remove any water struggle. Not the dew collector. The water filter mod in your headgear does help with a drinking water struggle, but not a crafting water struggle.

I see the disconnect now as well and apologize for misreading that part.

 
I've gotten the helmet water filter mods in A21 and I've never used them.  I don't really see any reason to unless you are in a large party.  I'd rather use other mods like the light mod and I don't want to swap mods back and forth.

 
minisith said:
It is a survival game.


So is: "The Forest".

A game where you have to skin your prey, and cook it directly on a fire. It's also a game where you take your cooking pot and dunk it into the water (literally), and then boil it over a fire. Taking pills to drink water isn't a bad solution in all honesty as water purification tablets exist.

This game had decent water mechanics as it was, but allowing the user to drink lake water, but not being able to boil it is absolutely stupid. Literally anyone in the real world would boil it first for about 6-8 minutes. Or they would do 10-12 minutes of boiling depending on the location.

I'm not against increasing the loot abundance in a sandbox game, I'm against ridiculous changes that ruin a survival aspect. The game doesn't have to be "hyper-realisitc", but this is not the way.

 
The real tragic is that this didn´t even make survival harder and food got buffed in loot at the same time. It´s so weird. They just made it more tedious. No additional challenge involved.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Old post i saw on WoW during WotLK kinda applies in the abstract. "Dont look for logic in the game that sends you dragon mounts in the mailbox." Games gonna game even if i sorta agree, just make the water poisonous so you can scoop the water but if you drink it it kills you. Players still are ferried to the dew collectors but if you REALLY wanna get the immersion experience you can have the 7 days version of zomboids drink bleach lol.

 
@Ailin You don´t even need dew collectors in SP if you don´t use the rocket launcher or explosive arrows/bolts. That´s why this change is so weird.

 
@Ailin You don´t even need dew collectors in SP if you don´t use the rocket launcher or explosive arrows/bolts. That´s why this change is so weird.


This argument does not make sense in a game where there are alternatives for some needs.. You don't even need farming as well, lots of alternatives. You don't even need hunting. You don't even need the gyro for travel. You don't even need run&gun perks when using heavy armor and shotgun. You don't even need lockipcking. 

Furthermore I would only assume veterans to get by easy without dew collector. And lastly you yourself mentioned 3 cases where you need them. 😉

 
Back
Top