Rince
New member
Well, it's the apocalypse, scavenging is kinda in the job discription, isn't?
And why they should put it back, only because I liked more? Because it seems that most people don't care.
PC Dew collector nerf in New update?
- Thread starter Slingblade2040
- Start date
And why they should put it back, only because I liked more? Because it seems that most people don't care.
Strange. That would suggest that screamers can not spawn more often than once an hour (but if you reach 200% or 300% maybe they come in groups). Once an hour (aka every 6 minutes) might be ok for a server with 8 people, they should have the manpower to deal with this in more than one way.
Why is a screamer a punishment for you but a wandering horde isn't ?
Slingblade2040
Active member
Screamers are just a ridiculous way to implement a slow down on crafting or gathering of resources. Especially since they can be turned into an exp and loot bag collection farm but I guess that kind of stuff isn't considered bad or an exploit for some reason.
A wandering horde has some element of randomness and its something we more or less have no control of when they show up. Heck I actually liked running into screamers inside some of the PoIs I did but was disappointed to see their scream ability wasn't working which I really hope is a bug.
Honestly I wonder if removing the heat map stuff would make any improvements towards performance.
Lasher
New member
Firstly - go and ask ANY serious game or software dev if a game of this scope should still be in EA after 10 years.
I persoanlly know 2 devs that have worked on AAA titles and another business app dev. They all say exaclty the same thing - but go take your pick.
As for your "scientific" method - the first part is right - try out changes and see if there's something to change or critizise.
Won't you DON'T then do is just stick to that method just to be bloody minded, defend all critizism of it and then try and repair it with gaffer tape and glue.
Which is what happens with TFP.
About as un-scientific as you can get.
And as for testing? Don't make me laugh...
Try reading what I wrote again Rince - because I don't think you did.
I did't say that my opinion was the absolute truth far from it - it's my opinon.
What I was saying is that there seems to be little point posting on these forums if you disagree with TFP.
Anyone that does tends to be shot down by the old guard with exaclty the same old tired, flabby excuses or just told to shut up and deal with it.
THAT'S what i really object to.
These forums should be a place for GENUINE discussion about this game - and with a better balanced dev they might even take a bit of the crit on board once in a while.
But oh no, we can't disagree with anything our lord and masters do...
Still... there's always mods...
BFT2020
Well-known member
You are comparing AAA game development studios and a business app developer with TFP, an indie game developer?
YourMirror
Well-known member
GENUINE discussion? Like callling the devs of this game lazy, incompentent, money grabbing aholes or a combination of all on their own forum? And smashing ANYONE who disagrees with you as "friends of the devs" so they shouldnt have a voice? Yeah sure mate, we all see what you are like. And the way you act, is indeed nothing anyone would listen too. Why should anyone? You act like a 4 year old, not getting his way. Not to mention the weakness of selfproclaimed spokesman of "the community". As said before, that sort of things is used by insecure debaters without arguments. So go mod and stay in the mods thread. Better for anyone.
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Lasher
New member
You are comparing AAA game development studios and a business app developer with TFP, an indie game developer?
As in they'd know what a proper dev process looks like - yes.
hiemfire
New member
If the game day is still 24hrs long then 1 game hour at default time settings is 2 minutes and 30 seconds.
Roland
Moderator
Your problem is that you aren't posting from a position of questioning whether there is a mess or not. You are posting from the foregone conclusion that there is a mess that needs fixing. Because you do that, others who don't think there is a mess or at least still question whether there is a mess or not respond and debate your points. You then take that as people denying the mess and somehow think that TFP is enslaved to those people.
This process of debating is actually what helps determine whether the changes are a mess or not. Just because people disagree with your assertion that it actually is a mess doesn't mean that there is not value in raising your valid points on the forum. You can respond to challenges to your position just as easily as people responded to your original point. It's hypocritical of you to say that you can't post your valid concerns when you are essentially calling for people responding with their valid concerns to be silenced. Patience and being willing to phrase your concerns in compelling ways and then rephrase them if necessary in response to a counterpoint is how good arguments emerge on both sides of any issue.
Ultimately, everyone who has a particular set of preferences that are not represented by the vanilla version of the game is going to have to use mods in order to gain that set of preferences. But that isn't because anyone argued against your point on the forum. It's because the developers made a final decision after testing and feedback and oftentimes lots of debate.
Lasher
New member
Calling it exaclty as I see it.
And where exaclty did I say that I was speaking for "the community"?
Once again YourMirror - learn to read before responding - I'm saying that everybody should be aloowed to have their opinion - whether they agree with TFP or not.
And you talking about the way I post?
The only person who mentioned the word "aholes" is you - which is pretty typical of your posting response to anyone who disagrees with you.
Rich. Pot - Kettle much?
YourMirror
Well-known member
Too easy.
"You'll come up against pretty much the same stock responses over and over and seeing as this often comes from folk in a position of power there's very little you can do about it."
" I personally am also sick to death of members of this forum - usually freinds of the developers simply defending every single action they take with excuses."
"I'm saying that everybody should be aloowed to have their opinion - whether they agree with TFP or not."
So everyone? Fail. BIG fail.
And there you go again. Highlighting one word you obviously didnt say but neglecting the whole point wrapped around it. So you didnt call the devs incompentent, lazy and moneygrabbers who dont care about opinions of anyone who paid already for the game? Yes you did. And best of all, you really think that is gonna get you anywhere with any kind of critisism. Like i said. A 4 year old. Putting fingers in ears and go neh neh nehneh neh.
So advise back learn to read yourself. Especially your own posts. They will get thrown in your face someday. Today is that day.
Lasher
New member
Roland said:
Thanks Roland - for yourr measured response - I do actually appreciate it.
On the subject of "mess" I think you may well be right to a certain exctent - I do most certainly perceive a mess.
Again, much as I know how a lot of folk hate this being brought up, but this game is still unfinished and in EA after 10 years - and after having conversations with several folk who work in the industry the opinon I have from them is that for a game of this scope that's certaily a sign that there's a problem.
What the problem is, I don't know, but I do know that this game has such a huge amount of potential that to see it almost wasted is quite upsetting.
You've mentioned testing, feedback and debate but I honeslty just don't really see evidence of very much of that going on at all - there seems to be an awful lot of "throw it at the wall and see what sticks" - now whether that's true or not I don't know but it chaotic.
So yes, I do certainly see a mess, and I think it looks that way to others as well in different areas depending on your experience and playstyle.
It would be nice if we could somehow have options to fix it - but I'm just gradually thinking that TFP don't care that much.
YourMirror said:
Standing by everything I said.
There are some serious problems at TFP - and if you don't like it just keep taking your copium.
Let's have a look at some of your posts shalll we... Oh no - looks like it was so toxic it got moderated.
Tell you what YourMirror - I'm going to stick you on ignore and I'd VERY much appreciate it if you'd return the favour.
Besides- I don't like punching down.
warmer
Well-known member
if you have enough dew collectors you essentially have unlimited money because you can sell fresh water. Unless I am mistaken. Thats a good 1000 dukes a day for 5 water collectors. the same reason they nerfed corn. Once you have enough to create more wealth resources per day that it cost to create another, the economy completely breaks.Slingblade2040 said:
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Roland
Moderator
I don't know about that. I get that it is your perception and you've admitted as much-- that you realize it is just your perception as well as others you've spoken with and observed. I am in the enviable position of being able to read all of their internal discord chats so I know for a fact that most of the doom-and-gloom speculation is way off. I can't prove it, of course, and someone like you who seems to be invested in choosing all the most nefarious and negative reasonings for motives that you can't really know but are simply assuming isn't going to trust me either.
TFP continues to enjoy greater and greater success as a result of what they are doing. I'm not sure by what evidence you measure serious problems but the 10+ years in alpha doesn't seem to be harming them in the more general population. If you look at Steamcharts the popularity of the game took off with Alpha 18 beyond what it ever was before and has maintained at that new higher level. We've peaked so far today in the 60k range on a Friday morning and are confident we will break records again this weekend. The feedback for the game in its post A18 state including A21 is predominately positive. That doesn't mean those who post negative views are discounted. But it doesn't really speak to "serious problems". If a 10+ year-old alpha development phase was seriously problematic then I'd expect the steam charts to show declining interest.
Your concerns as well as others who agree with you are known by TFP. I would not be surprised if there wasn't a shift towards alleviating some of those concerns because it always seems to happen every update when there is strong dislike for a feature. TFP adjusts it ultimately somewhere in between what the negative feedback demands and what the positive feedback gushes over. Whenever you that has happened we then see posts of people who loved the change disappointed that TFP caved in.
At any rate. I don't think anyone has anything to worry with regards to TFP being in trouble. They are in an extremely good position for finishing up this game and then launching into their next one in a timely fashion and much further ahead in terms of development for their next game than they were when they started 7 Days to Die. They will be starting the next game with their own original assets and art, a firm grip on the ins and outs of the Unreal engine, and plenty of systems and features they've already spent time experimenting. I say all of this to draw a distinction between the long process of their first game in which they have experimented and developed systems--some of which they threw out for this game but could be considered for their next game. This long process will pay off in being able to push out games much more quickly in the future. So their future is still bright.
But none of that is provable. You have to take my word for it with a hopeful attitude. It will eventually be provable, though, when history shows that 7 Days to Die actually completed and TFP followed up with more hit games that were released in a much faster timetable. Or history might show that TFP crumbles and implodes and nobody buys anything they ever put out again. It's possible but not probable. From what I've seen of the preliminary work their next game will be a big hit. But we'll see. I hope for their success. Do you hope for their failure?
Roland
Moderator
Slingblade2040 said:
Could you outline exactly how the game becoming more looter shooter violates the kickstarter promises? Was there a promise to hold the line against looter-shooterness?
Looting and shooting zombies have been a huge part of this game since the kickstarter was released. This game has many elements and there has never been any guarantee that one or two elements might or might not end up being more dominant than others. The game still has crafting, building, mining, farming, cooking, medicating, eating, drinking, driving, and more. Looting and shooting are still among many of the elements that make up this game.
Go to the pinned thread in the Pimp Dreams part of this forum and click on the list of kickstarter promises and specify how an emphasis on the looting and the shooting breaks promises.
Nevermind-- here's a link for your convenience:
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RipClaw
Well-known member
The frustrating aspect is that we are not part of the debate. All debates in this forum take place after the fun pimps have made their decision. And we have no knowledge of what arguments were made in that debate.Roland said:
And the thing with the feedback is not so simple. Player A has bad luck and progresses only very slowly, player B, on the other hand, reports that everything moves much too fast. Whose feedback carries more weight?
Roland
Moderator
I was counting the debate on forums and social media when I said the debate. That's what I meant. You might not see it because you prefer that TFP capitulate all the way to the way you want it but that doesn't change the historical facts that TFP almost always adjusts back to some degree many of the changes they made that caused in heated debates on this forum-- much to the ire and consternation of other forum users who liked the full changes and then claim TFP gave in to "casuals". (I'm not saying I agree with that--just reporting what I've seen every cycle)
I remember the debate over sleeper density in POIs for A17. That was a loud debate: that POIs were now like "Clown Cars". I was disappointed when TFP adjusted the POI populations back towards mostly empty-- although now with infestation everyone can get what they want-- but that's three years after the original nerf based on community debates.
The real problem is your assumption that anything that is implemented today constitutes any developer's final decision. Until we hit 1.0 there are no final decisions and everything is a work in progress. If everyone would just internalize this truth that everything is potentially on the chopping block until they finally announce the game is done, it would really go a long way towards alleviating so many worries. There has been no final decision on anything yet. There are things that are very improbable to happen such as return to LBD but even that or some hybridization between magazines, skillpoints, and LBD still happening could conceivably be possible if TFP decided they wanted to do it. Why? Because of how much debate on the subject there has been and the years of testing and playing and most of all: The final decision hasn't been made yet on anything. Its all WIP.
As to your second point, this is precisely why it takes TFP months to years to make adjustments that people are clamoring for (If they do decide to do it). I know I risk another blow up response by several people claiming that there's no point to posting when I make this next statement:
TFP doesn't value kneejerk response feedback as much as they do aggregate feedback after longterm play collected from many different sources. They've made some changes already that I personally feel were probably a bit too hasty but I have confidence they will find the right spot on each dial over the next year or so.
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RipClaw
Well-known member
I don't expect anything to be completely rolled back but some more communication would be really nice. For example, when a change is announced, the story behind it could help to understand the decision. Why is the change being made, what is the goal and what alternatives have been considered.
I also remember the debates and was surprised that the number of zombies was reduced so much. The way I saw it, it was the small POIs that the players complained about. In a big POI like the waterworks, for example, it's logical to assume that there are a lot of zombies in there, but when 9 zombies come out of a 3x3 room, it seems a bit strange.
I hope that will be the case.
Lasher
New member
Thank you for your response Roland - much appreciated.
I may have my doubts but I certainly do not wish for anyone's failure.
I've put thousands of hours into this game - I'd like it to be as good as it can be.
Riamus
Well-known member
Few developers give this kind of information out, or rarely do. They don't have to explain themselves to us. I agree that more communication is great and I applaud the developers who do provide a lot of details on the process involved in the decisions they make but that is rare and not to be expected.