theFlu
Well-known member
That pipe machine gun is the absolute best of the pipe tier, only real drawback is the tiny magazine. Give it a whirl, ASAP
PC Poll - Which progression system did you prefer?
- Thread starter Lasher
- Start date
Probably if you fixate only at dps.That pipe machine gun is the absolute best of the pipe tier, only real drawback is the tiny magazine. Give it a whirl, ASAP
I think the pipe shotgun ist far more vesatile as a "oh-@%$#-weapon". You get good DPS, plus the slowing effect (at even more than one zombie) and if you take thetier 1 quest reward shotgun ammo, you get 60 rounds more than enough for a long time. All in all you get the most bang for the buck,
theFlu
Well-known member
Sure, the "stun" / slow is good, but the stagger from the PMG is somewhat equally useful. 15 (or 22) rounds means you can drop a couple targets reliably, esp if you bother to go for head shots.
I don't blame you for liking the shotty, but in my eyes it's not really comparable.
Like I said. If you go for raw dps. But you have to pay it with ammo.
The shotty gives you the time to regroup, so you can either go on shooting or do some more wetwork with your meleeweapon.
AtomicUs5000
New member
Ever since LBD was removed, I have seen that mixing core survival attributes with specializations causes problems... regardless of the method used to obtain or distribute skills and perks. Separation may be even more important than the method but there isn't a way to know because we've never seen that yet. It's just my theory.
Certain things everybody wants no matter what type of character you build.
Here are probably most of them:
- Max stamina increases.
- Better stamina recovery.
- Max health increases.
- Better health recovery.
- Increased overall attack speed.
- Increased overall damage against enemies.
- Increased overall defense against enemies.
- Increased overall damage against structure.
- Increased disease resistance.
- Increased ailment resistance.
- Increased mobility.
- Increased stealth.
- Increased collection of resources.
- Increased efficiency of hydration.
- Increased efficiency of satiation.
You take all that and build a core skill system where every player has the opportunity to improve all of these aspects to some reasonable arbitrary maximum value. LBD, LBR, LBP, LBAPPLESAUCE... it doesn't matter. All that matters is that any player can easily build these up for basic survivability.
Now, you add in specialization. Trees and perks must be carefully chosen regardless of the method used to progress.
Besides adding some specific traits, each specialization may increase a couple of the core aspects above a little more but is always tied to the specialization in some way. Each specialization may even be a small detriment to a couple of the core aspects above. However, when comparing one possible specialization to another, the core aspect increases and/or decreases are fairly similar in overall character survivability.
After you master any specialization you unlock the ability to choose some really special perk. For example in stealth, choose either
- damage against enemies using stealth weapons has a 10% chance of being critical.
- no noise or stamina penalty for stealth sprinting.
This doesn't even have to be a one time choice. Perhaps for each specialization you get a different choice of perk at mastery levels 3, 7, 12. Just as an example.
This not only allows for a character to take on some role, a player can build their favorite role in slightly different ways for several playthroughs.
The number of different specializations a character can possibly decide to fully master in a single playthrough is up to a design decision, but even if it was just one, it should not be an unenjoyable experience because your overall survivability was handled outside of the specialization.
Certain things everybody wants no matter what type of character you build.
Here are probably most of them:
- Max stamina increases.
- Better stamina recovery.
- Max health increases.
- Better health recovery.
- Increased overall attack speed.
- Increased overall damage against enemies.
- Increased overall defense against enemies.
- Increased overall damage against structure.
- Increased disease resistance.
- Increased ailment resistance.
- Increased mobility.
- Increased stealth.
- Increased collection of resources.
- Increased efficiency of hydration.
- Increased efficiency of satiation.
You take all that and build a core skill system where every player has the opportunity to improve all of these aspects to some reasonable arbitrary maximum value. LBD, LBR, LBP, LBAPPLESAUCE... it doesn't matter. All that matters is that any player can easily build these up for basic survivability.
Now, you add in specialization. Trees and perks must be carefully chosen regardless of the method used to progress.
Besides adding some specific traits, each specialization may increase a couple of the core aspects above a little more but is always tied to the specialization in some way. Each specialization may even be a small detriment to a couple of the core aspects above. However, when comparing one possible specialization to another, the core aspect increases and/or decreases are fairly similar in overall character survivability.
After you master any specialization you unlock the ability to choose some really special perk. For example in stealth, choose either
- damage against enemies using stealth weapons has a 10% chance of being critical.
- no noise or stamina penalty for stealth sprinting.
This doesn't even have to be a one time choice. Perhaps for each specialization you get a different choice of perk at mastery levels 3, 7, 12. Just as an example.
This not only allows for a character to take on some role, a player can build their favorite role in slightly different ways for several playthroughs.
The number of different specializations a character can possibly decide to fully master in a single playthrough is up to a design decision, but even if it was just one, it should not be an unenjoyable experience because your overall survivability was handled outside of the specialization.
Spidey2832
New member
Anything but learn by reading/looting.
We already did it once years ago and it SUUUUUCKED and now for some inconceivable reason it was brought back (improved a bit admittedly) and now it just sucks. I said it in the development thread like a year ago when I heard the news. Massive step backwards. I think learn by looting can be a part (small) of progression. But being the primary means is the absolute worst option. Id rather go back to spam crafting stone axes.
I understand this was also an attempt to get people to move about the map and explore which is fine I guess but theres like a bunch of other features that have been asked for or promised long long long ago (cough cough raiders cough cough) that continually get de-prioritized for art and redoing systems that maybe weren't perfect but were fine. Things like NPC communities, raider, quests that are more than just go 500m away and fight some zombies over and over. Make the long distance trader quests more appealing to take on. There's a multitude of ways instead of repeating a mistake from the past and also simultaneously ruining progression for folks in a group who are the "home body".
Hoping Darkness Falls and other mods can once again fix the mess.
We already did it once years ago and it SUUUUUCKED and now for some inconceivable reason it was brought back (improved a bit admittedly) and now it just sucks. I said it in the development thread like a year ago when I heard the news. Massive step backwards. I think learn by looting can be a part (small) of progression. But being the primary means is the absolute worst option. Id rather go back to spam crafting stone axes.
I understand this was also an attempt to get people to move about the map and explore which is fine I guess but theres like a bunch of other features that have been asked for or promised long long long ago (cough cough raiders cough cough) that continually get de-prioritized for art and redoing systems that maybe weren't perfect but were fine. Things like NPC communities, raider, quests that are more than just go 500m away and fight some zombies over and over. Make the long distance trader quests more appealing to take on. There's a multitude of ways instead of repeating a mistake from the past and also simultaneously ruining progression for folks in a group who are the "home body".
Hoping Darkness Falls and other mods can once again fix the mess.
ninjagranny
New member
Don't post ofeten as in general i just love playing this game - been playing it since it came out
The new set of extra books is horrendous - it changes the game from survival into zombie hunting . TBH we play co-operative so maybe the pvp people will like it but currently not being able to get weapons and tools up to a decent level unless you randomly loot something is rubbish - sorry i love this game but this is a seriously poor change .
Im going back to 20 until i can finish the mod for getting rid of the new books - currently the simplest way seems to be to leave them in but effectively give 10 books each time you skill up in a normal tier - its a bit clunky but means that you can still specialise rather than hunt zombies for the chance of gettitng what you need .
At least go back to v16 method which makes some sense - you use stuff you get better at using it . rather than oops i have found a peice of paper and now am better at random skill .
The new set of extra books is horrendous - it changes the game from survival into zombie hunting . TBH we play co-operative so maybe the pvp people will like it but currently not being able to get weapons and tools up to a decent level unless you randomly loot something is rubbish - sorry i love this game but this is a seriously poor change .
Im going back to 20 until i can finish the mod for getting rid of the new books - currently the simplest way seems to be to leave them in but effectively give 10 books each time you skill up in a normal tier - its a bit clunky but means that you can still specialise rather than hunt zombies for the chance of gettitng what you need .
At least go back to v16 method which makes some sense - you use stuff you get better at using it . rather than oops i have found a peice of paper and now am better at random skill .
Last edited by a moderator:
Riamus
Well-known member
I'm not sure I understand your meaning. Hunting zombies to get magazines? That doesn't give you magazines. If you are talking about looting and scavenging instead, then yes, that is pretty much required.ninjagranny said:
As far as being better from reading something... that's hardly unrealistic. Ever read a manual that gave you the necessary information to put something together? Same thing. In fact, these are basically the same thing as getting the schematics except that it takes multiple magazines instead of one schematic. Also, these only affect crafting, not a skill or the ability to use something.
These do seem to do what the devs stated they wanted - get people to craft more. Unfortunately, after you get to the top stuff in the game, you realize that crafting is pretty broken with the huge amounts of required duct tape to make everything. Far easier to buy or loot stuff. It also doesn't scale well. Depending on the number of players in your group and how much questing/looting you do, you are either going to be able to craft things far better than what you'll be able to loot or buy or you'll find and buy things far sooner than you can craft them. This unbalanced scaling gets worse as your game progresses unless you're right at the "sweet spot" where it stays with you.
bloodmoth13
New member
Current system is the best so far, you really get your build online fast and speccing into something feels great.
I hated buying skills it always felt like @%$#, like you buy a forge and you immediately find the schematic afterwards.
Learn by doing probably had the longest longevity and it made sense but honestly it wasn't good. Making a million stone axes and bugging the server every night was just yuck.
I hated buying skills it always felt like @%$#, like you buy a forge and you immediately find the schematic afterwards.
Learn by doing probably had the longest longevity and it made sense but honestly it wasn't good. Making a million stone axes and bugging the server every night was just yuck.
You spec into miner, go to mine and... never get anything better than stone axe q1... so fast and so best.
bloodmoth13
New member
Right that's the only issue is players are forced to loot.
It's a good direction that might need a few holes plugged but I don't think tfp want players to succeed as underground moles all game as mining forever isn't what the game is designed around, if you mine at night and loot during the day it's fine
ninjagranny
New member
Sorry I obviously didnt explain myslef well enough
In a multiplayer game we tend to have a zombie masher a cook a/ gardener a crafter a builder and a miner (although different people can take whatever specialisation they want and someteimes we have no zombie masher etc )- so they specialsie in what they want to do . With the new system you cant - you have to go out and loot / fight zombies .. I have 1300 hours in game so far and have used minor mods to remove the huge xp form trader quests and reduce xp from zombie kills etc . nothing massive ( oh yea and remove the autokill traps like the blades as they make end game way too simple and put blood moon up by 10 times .)
Even single player you cant for example spec into a stealth bowman for example as you have to loot the correct magazines to even be able to make basic items .. it just random grindfest without being able to specialise . Quest xp is ridiculoulsy high and you can cane through levels if you leave it like that - I have re-instaleld a 20 and am digging through the huge amount of changes to get rid of the magazines
In a multiplayer game we tend to have a zombie masher a cook a/ gardener a crafter a builder and a miner (although different people can take whatever specialisation they want and someteimes we have no zombie masher etc )- so they specialsie in what they want to do . With the new system you cant - you have to go out and loot / fight zombies .. I have 1300 hours in game so far and have used minor mods to remove the huge xp form trader quests and reduce xp from zombie kills etc . nothing massive ( oh yea and remove the autokill traps like the blades as they make end game way too simple and put blood moon up by 10 times .)
Even single player you cant for example spec into a stealth bowman for example as you have to loot the correct magazines to even be able to make basic items .. it just random grindfest without being able to specialise . Quest xp is ridiculoulsy high and you can cane through levels if you leave it like that - I have re-instaleld a 20 and am digging through the huge amount of changes to get rid of the magazines
Why not?
Game is suppoused to be towerdefence, survival, sandbox game. Why in such game im not suppouse to succed as underground mole?
Right not THE ONLY thing to do is to loot, and maybe do quests at the same time because its even more loot.
you cannot spec into anything other than looting, because doing anything other will not bring you magazines and not allow you to do any other activity.
Spam-crafting stone axes to improve the stone axe crafting skill was entirely goofy. I remember just joining a game, and constantly dropping stone axes because you can't salvage while crafting. Just queuing up hundreds of stone axes.
I can't relate to people who thought that was a good system.
It made me feel powerful to be so quickly and reliably gaining progress, but it completely ruins immersion.
I like A21's system, but honestly I'd prefer it to be different than any of the previous iterations.
You know what'd be cool? Combining all 3, and adding a little extra.
I think what I'd like to see done, is:
1. Have crafting skill books, like we have in A21.
2. Have "learn by doing", but not have it apply to crafting. So you don't spam-craft things to get better at crafting.
3. Have two types of "perk points". One of them the way it currently is, and maybe a second resource like "specialization points" where you start with 1 and only get 1 every 25 levels or so.
4. Make "quality 7" weapons require you to be specced into the weapon perk before they're even added to the loot table.
So with my suggestion, A21-style crafting skill books primarily dictate crafting.
Combat / gathering would be primarily a combination of perk points and learn-as-you-do.
And having hard specialization points allow you to carve out a niche within a co-op group.
As well as the best loot not just being based on RNG, but actually requiring you to actually invest skill points to obtain the best loot of its type.
I've always found it super unfair (since the change ages ago) that if "Player A" invests their perk points into, let's say Pistols, uses pistols primarily, crafts pistols, and basically does everything in their power to specialize in one thing, and with A21 they max out the skill book tree 100/100, they can still only craft Quality 5 pistols. Meanwhile "Player B" just has to loot things with zero investment or specialization, and they can get Quality 6 pistols.
I think obtaining the highest quality (let's call it "quality 7") should require investing specifically into that weapon/tool/item to be able to find it in loot. Quality 5 for crafting, quality 6 for looting, quality 7 for investing points and then looting.
I can't relate to people who thought that was a good system.
It made me feel powerful to be so quickly and reliably gaining progress, but it completely ruins immersion.
I like A21's system, but honestly I'd prefer it to be different than any of the previous iterations.
You know what'd be cool? Combining all 3, and adding a little extra.
I think what I'd like to see done, is:
1. Have crafting skill books, like we have in A21.
2. Have "learn by doing", but not have it apply to crafting. So you don't spam-craft things to get better at crafting.
3. Have two types of "perk points". One of them the way it currently is, and maybe a second resource like "specialization points" where you start with 1 and only get 1 every 25 levels or so.
4. Make "quality 7" weapons require you to be specced into the weapon perk before they're even added to the loot table.
So with my suggestion, A21-style crafting skill books primarily dictate crafting.
Combat / gathering would be primarily a combination of perk points and learn-as-you-do.
And having hard specialization points allow you to carve out a niche within a co-op group.
As well as the best loot not just being based on RNG, but actually requiring you to actually invest skill points to obtain the best loot of its type.
I've always found it super unfair (since the change ages ago) that if "Player A" invests their perk points into, let's say Pistols, uses pistols primarily, crafts pistols, and basically does everything in their power to specialize in one thing, and with A21 they max out the skill book tree 100/100, they can still only craft Quality 5 pistols. Meanwhile "Player B" just has to loot things with zero investment or specialization, and they can get Quality 6 pistols.
I think obtaining the highest quality (let's call it "quality 7") should require investing specifically into that weapon/tool/item to be able to find it in loot. Quality 5 for crafting, quality 6 for looting, quality 7 for investing points and then looting.
youcantgetridofme
New member
I am poll voter 103 (the 46.79%). Seems clear so far, what people preferred - LBD. If it's not broken, there's no need to fix it, but it got fixed repeatedly.
RipClaw
Well-known member
Let me get this straight. You abused the system with spam crafting to make fast progress and now you complain that the progress was so fast?
The problem was not LBD but players that felt the need to progress faster. I started with Alpha 15 and never resorted to spam crafting to progress quickly. I was still fighting the horde with bow and arrow on day 35. Nowadays, players complain if they don't have some kind of firearm on day one.
With Alpha 16.4 the spam crafting problem was solved anyway and we had a hybrid system instead of a pure LDB system. With Alpha 17 came the skill tree and some players started farming screamers and spamming quests instead of crafting stone axes to progress faster. And in Alpha 21 the same players run from mailbox to mailbox and pump out as many T1 quest as they can to get the magazine bundles.
The alpha where we sat in our base crafting 1000 axes every night sucked, the multiple alpha's where the trader gave you a motorcycle in week 2 sucked, the alpha where I spec'd fists and didn't get a steel knuckle drop for 72 days (at which point I quit) sucked. A21 progression is the best I can remember.
theFlu
Well-known member
He didn't complain the progress was fast, he complained it wasn't immersive.
There's no "abusing" spam crafting if spam crafting is designed to be both possible and productive. It's just a bad design when the only limiting factor is the annoyance you can tolerate. If that's the design, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that people get annoyed...
RipClaw
Well-known member
The point is that those who complain about LBD always act as if the game forced them to do this. Nobody forced them to do anything. They did all this to themselves.There's no "abusing" spam crafting if spam crafting is designed to be both possible and productive. It's just a bad design when the only limiting factor is the annoyance you can tolerate. If that's the design, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that people get annoyed...
That is just a mindset that some players have. They have to play in the most efficient way. If that means crafting stone axes, they'll do it whether it's fun or not. If that means farming screamers and spamming quests, then that's what they'll do.