PC To fix stealth... nerf stealth?
- Thread starter theFlu
- Start date
theFlu
Well-known member
Yeh, it's always felt a bit of an afterthought at best, but they Have dragged it along for now. With this New Design (tm), it's going to take something like the introduction of Flashbangs (blind and deafen, effectively freeze in place all zeds in LoS Or Range). Which could become interesting, but I really doubt they'll go that far for stealth.
hiemfire
New member
If they did it would spike the heat map by 50-60 points per use and guarantee a scout spawn when it causes the heat map to break 100.
They'd also be steel tier and cost more than a frag rocket each to prevent screamer horde farming.
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zztong
Well-known member
I've had a few weekends to play A21 and a number of the new POIs through Tier 4. I had a pretty good time in the OPS Distribution Center. (I think that's the name.) Before that was a "Hogzilla" POI. I've been "double dipping" them so the first time I was more likely to fall for tricks and the second time I was somewhat informed, though sleepers don't always spawn in the same locations, so it can be still a bit of a mystery.
In A20 I'd say 80% of the zombie volumes could be handled via stealth and of those that couldn't, the encounter was usually mild enough that switching from bow to club was more than enough to cope. The revised Crack-A-Book (Tier 5) could be cleared 100% with stealth.
My second pass through OPS Dist Center (Tier 4) today was pretty satisfying with stealth, but the first pass had some surprise moments. I can see why folks aren't happy. Again, most of the surprise activations weren't a major complication, but the final encounter got me into a running gun battle and a significant injury. I can get too confident and that can set me up. It did in this case. You can't always just "crouch and go." Sometimes you have to control your movements to keep the stealth meter low. In the second pass through I cleared the final encounter entirely with stealth and without destroying part (walls) of the environment to give me shots. This was AGL 5, and 3 Perks towards sneaking and stealth damage, all cloth armor, primitive bow 6 with 4 mods. I even took a screenshot while standing amongst the final loot with bow aimed toward the last zombie. I was super cautious in that approach, using single steps to keep the stealth meter around 1, rather than an extended "crouch and go" stealth walk with a stealth meter around 8. I kept my distance, clearing out boxes to give me good angles to shoot.
Hogzilla has a couple of spots I don't know if I can stealth. There's a pair of zombies that have a "rear slope" position up in the ceiling and they activate when you enter the room. I think there's 1-2 more Zeds in that room that activate. Here I feel a little cheated, but it isn't a huge deal as I have a way to withdraw and trade space for damage.
I've heard other POI designers talk about the clever things they can do with new volume options. I've had my concerns that making zombies appear behind people in areas previously cleared are likely to be unpopular. In some cases, designers are trying to suggest zombies wandered in behind the player. I see some merit in that. The thing is players aren't going to get a chance to see the designer placed the zombies by the doors, by the air vents, or wherever they were supposed to come from. Players are just going to know there's a big ruckus behind them. Plus, players are used to zombies stumbling around outside the POI. We can hear them. They're kind of fun when they detect you and "add" themselves to the situation because they'll do neat things like tear a hole in wall for you. I mean, I like exits from buildings and I'm happy to loot and look around why a zombie makes one.
I guess I'm rambling here. The ideal stealth experience is a matter of individual taste. Designers have some new tools. I think with details and feedback, a happy medium is possible, but I think A21's new tools can be taken too far. I don't think a POI has to be 100% doable with stealth. I do appreciate the POIs that make me think and take my time, presenting a stealth puzzle. It isn't the most efficient way to level, but I find it fun.
In A20 I'd say 80% of the zombie volumes could be handled via stealth and of those that couldn't, the encounter was usually mild enough that switching from bow to club was more than enough to cope. The revised Crack-A-Book (Tier 5) could be cleared 100% with stealth.
My second pass through OPS Dist Center (Tier 4) today was pretty satisfying with stealth, but the first pass had some surprise moments. I can see why folks aren't happy. Again, most of the surprise activations weren't a major complication, but the final encounter got me into a running gun battle and a significant injury. I can get too confident and that can set me up. It did in this case. You can't always just "crouch and go." Sometimes you have to control your movements to keep the stealth meter low. In the second pass through I cleared the final encounter entirely with stealth and without destroying part (walls) of the environment to give me shots. This was AGL 5, and 3 Perks towards sneaking and stealth damage, all cloth armor, primitive bow 6 with 4 mods. I even took a screenshot while standing amongst the final loot with bow aimed toward the last zombie. I was super cautious in that approach, using single steps to keep the stealth meter around 1, rather than an extended "crouch and go" stealth walk with a stealth meter around 8. I kept my distance, clearing out boxes to give me good angles to shoot.
Hogzilla has a couple of spots I don't know if I can stealth. There's a pair of zombies that have a "rear slope" position up in the ceiling and they activate when you enter the room. I think there's 1-2 more Zeds in that room that activate. Here I feel a little cheated, but it isn't a huge deal as I have a way to withdraw and trade space for damage.
I've heard other POI designers talk about the clever things they can do with new volume options. I've had my concerns that making zombies appear behind people in areas previously cleared are likely to be unpopular. In some cases, designers are trying to suggest zombies wandered in behind the player. I see some merit in that. The thing is players aren't going to get a chance to see the designer placed the zombies by the doors, by the air vents, or wherever they were supposed to come from. Players are just going to know there's a big ruckus behind them. Plus, players are used to zombies stumbling around outside the POI. We can hear them. They're kind of fun when they detect you and "add" themselves to the situation because they'll do neat things like tear a hole in wall for you. I mean, I like exits from buildings and I'm happy to loot and look around why a zombie makes one.
I guess I'm rambling here. The ideal stealth experience is a matter of individual taste. Designers have some new tools. I think with details and feedback, a happy medium is possible, but I think A21's new tools can be taken too far. I don't think a POI has to be 100% doable with stealth. I do appreciate the POIs that make me think and take my time, presenting a stealth puzzle. It isn't the most efficient way to level, but I find it fun.
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Uncle Al
Active member
It definitely feels cheesy, but rather than pipe bombs, might I suggest using explosive arrows/bolts. Somewhat surprisingly, they get the full (3.5x + 0.5 per hidden strike rank) modifier to sneak damage which makes an explosive arrow out of stealth the most devastating alpha strike in the game.True, at least partially. They do make for the easiest of targets. But assuming only that the current volume-spawned zeds would get up and start wandering upon being loaded in.. none of the current jump scares could be designed, and you could still clear a room just by adding a couple extra pebbles on your toolbar. Lure them into a corner and start throwing bolts. Or pineapples at that point. Heck, I've started to use pipe bombs for stealth in A21 vanilla. Can't quite the headshot behind the kitchen counter? The arc above is usually free... sneaky AF
NekoPawtato
Moderator
I've noticed if I place frame blocks in the locations where the zombies are supposed to spawn in later, the game won't spawn them when the volume is triggered, but that requires you to know where they'll all spawn in from (like by looking at POI editor) haha... but that's my way of cheesing it a littlebut having checked how the prison works.. all bets are off, likely just outside the door.. no more clearing areas for safety
theFlu
Well-known member
You may, they're great, but they're also duct tape and a crucible away..
Pipes, plant fiber, gunpowder sounds a little easier combo; and the trader is literally demanding me to take some throwable boombooms in the early game ..
zztong
Well-known member
There was a smaller warehouse I did today -- I don't recall the name -- but it had some Z's spawn behind me. They were behind a strong door that I didn't pry open, but it opened on a trigger. To your point, it had me thinking maybe I need to be leaving spikes behind me. Yet I still want to have an egress. Then I thought maybe putting spikes against untrusted doors when it comes to approaching a final encounter.
theFlu
Well-known member
Might as well, not like the designers are going to complain. I myself, will rather hang up the game though...
NekoPawtato
Moderator
Yeah I'm also considering bringing forged iron with me so I can repair any flimsy doors so I can get more breathing room and focus on one group of zombies at a time, or ya know, prepare some exploding arrows to shoot in their face once they all bunch up by the door
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hiemfire
New member
Isn't there an on and off again @%$# fest over "nerd poling"? Watch it gain stronger dev backing to eliminate it when they see people blocking spawn points with frames...
theFlu
Well-known member
Ehh.. if that bothered the designers, they'd just spawn a dozen rad vultures on anyone detected outside the POI roof bounds..
hiemfire
New member
Give them time...Ehh.. if that bothered the designers, they'd just spawn a dozen rad vultures on anyone detected outside the POI roof bounds..
They were floating the idea during GNS interview i think it was? of only allowing completely free frame uses inside Land Claims, I dont know if they are still considering that.Ehh.. if that bothered the designers, they'd just spawn a dozen rad vultures on anyone detected outside the POI roof bounds..
pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
Wich would simply lead to people using landclaims at the POI´s they are going to loot. You can have 3 active landclaims at once now. On a dedicated server you can even have as much as you want. So i don´t think that´s going to happen.
What hopefully happens, is that sleepers spawning in behind me after i entered a room is going to be fixed.
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theFlu
Well-known member
Yeh, that ain't gonna fix it either. They'd have to make the installation of a land claim into a timed event like the old concrete drying. Which wouldn't negate the base building aspect, but if successful it would destroy the nature of their world.
The main unique thing in the game is the free environment. Take that away, and you have a standard issue static game with absolutely nightmarish lag. Because of the lag and other issues cause by the world (generally slowness), they won't be able to match any static game in the AI side, or I'd guess encounter design.
Having to design _against_ the builder game they have is a clear indication that they are trying to do things that aren't a good fit for it.
They could, in a "Tier 1 introductory Fetch" tell the player ..
"Craft a ladder"
"See that broken ladder there, repair it by installing a new one"
"Get the satchel"
and "Talk to Trader" ..
And go from there.
Make the building an expected part of the quest experience. Let the players be creative. If they mess up, they mess up, but ..
Don't give them buckets, trucks and a sandbox only to then cover the sand in concrete to make it into car track. Fixing the car track can be half the fun.
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I think the most realistic solution would be to just remove stealth from the game. There's no shame in design by subtraction.
It's clear TFP has 100% stealthing of POIs on their "wrong play" list. I don't even think that they are wrong to target stealth because, as some have noted here, it can be downright OP. But their attempts to "combat" stealth through level design don't moderate stealth, they just kill it. It doesn't feel balanced. There are POIs you can stealth without issue and possibly with little skill investment, there are POIs you absolutely cannot stealth 100% with ANY amount of skill investment and there's also no way of knowing without diving in. So without a major overhaul, the only options are to leave stealth a haphazard mess or totally dump the stealth system. Maybe a bandaid fix of advertising which POIs are stealthable and which aren't, to at least keep players informed.
There are other solutions but they will require major rework to existing POIs and systems. Not sure it's a good investment at this point.
It's clear TFP has 100% stealthing of POIs on their "wrong play" list. I don't even think that they are wrong to target stealth because, as some have noted here, it can be downright OP. But their attempts to "combat" stealth through level design don't moderate stealth, they just kill it. It doesn't feel balanced. There are POIs you can stealth without issue and possibly with little skill investment, there are POIs you absolutely cannot stealth 100% with ANY amount of skill investment and there's also no way of knowing without diving in. So without a major overhaul, the only options are to leave stealth a haphazard mess or totally dump the stealth system. Maybe a bandaid fix of advertising which POIs are stealthable and which aren't, to at least keep players informed.
There are other solutions but they will require major rework to existing POIs and systems. Not sure it's a good investment at this point.
stryker290
New member
Anybody else notice the nerf to the pipe smg? Use to stealth around with that silenced, now i'ts got the mp5 audio and it's loud and awful.
I'm a fan of stealth playstyle, but I agree it's OP in A21. Day 5: 3/5 bows + 3/5 hidden strike + primary bow + stone arrow = one-hit most of the zombies (even the fat ones). On the other hand, it's more difficult to go ninja-mode in a POI, because more zombies are behind obstacles and now zombies trigger-spawn awaken (see other topic).
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pottervogel
New member
I hope not, that would kill the best part of the game (building whereever you want whatever you want)