PC A21 Learn by reading: a cool system, but super imbalanced.

[Roland]

I did, it is just this game became a looting-first person shooter, when it used to be survival-crafting-base building. It was one of my favorite games and I have been waiting for the bandits to make it hit every itch. But it looks like I must stay at A20 if I wanna keep playing *sighs*.  I just do not enjoy hacknslash or FP shooters. Because building a self-sustaining base is the main goal for me.

It’s interesting that you say that when in every game I play with A21 I am still surviving, crafting, and building. I’m still prepping for horde nights. I’m still doing everything I have done plus more since I began playing this game. 
 

Another thing that is interesting is that you talk about how much you dislike the amount of looting and shooting but at the same time can’t wait for bandits. What do you think bandits are going to bring to the game if not more looting and shooting?  Did you think the bandits are going to help you survive, craft, and build? They’re not. They will be new targets to shoot and their lairs will be new places to loot. 

This game is meant to be played in the default version by doing many activities that complement each other. Only wanting to focus on a few of them is fine but it is going to require some adjustments to settings or modding. Maybe it used to not be that way but that was only because there were so many unfinished aspects of the game. 
 

Perhaps things aren’t turning out the way you and some others wanted but to say this game is only a looter shooter when it used to be a survival crafting and building game is simply a narrow and extreme view. Most players still build, craft, survive, loot, shoot, melee, explore, cook, mine, farm, quest, and accomplish whatever personal objectives they’ve given themselves. And that is because, in reality, all of those elements are still in the game despite the extreme perspective of a few. 

Thankfully there are mods for people who want to change the game to whatever they think defines a game as a survival, crafting, and building game. 

 

[Vaeliorin]

In SP i am gonna get rich af with those magazines. Not sure about balance yet, but it does slow down progression wich was much needed. Not like that though.

It slows down progression in some things, but not in others.  I could make q5 iron tools on Day 3.  I'm on day 11 now, and have a q5 iron spear.

Unfortunately, looting for gear seems worthless so far, outside of armor.  I'm still finding stone stuff (admittedly q6) but can make q2 motor tools.

 

[boban]

 there were so many unfinished aspects of the game.

Are

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

It’s interesting that you say that when in every game I play with A21 I am still surviving, crafting, and building. I’m still prepping for horde nights. I’m still doing everything I have done plus more since I began playing this game. 
 

Another thing that is interesting is that you talk about how much you dislike the amount of looting and shooting but at the same time can’t wait for bandits. What do you think bandits are going to bring to the game if not more looting and shooting?  Did you think the bandits are going to help you survive, craft, and build? They’re not. They will be new targets to shoot and their lairs will be new places to loot. 

This game is meant to be played in the default version by doing many activities that complement each other. Only wanting to focus on a few of them is fine but it is going to require some adjustments to settings or modding. Maybe it used to not be that way but that was only because there were so many unfinished aspects of the game. 
 

Perhaps things aren’t turning out the way you and some others wanted but to say this game is only a looter shooter when it used to be a survival crafting and building game is simply a narrow and extreme view. Most players still build, craft, survive, loot, shoot, melee, explore, cook, mine, farm, quest, and accomplish whatever personal objectives they’ve given themselves. And that is because, in reality, all of those elements are still in the game desire the extreme perspective of a few. 

Thankfully there are mods for people who want to change the game to whatever they think defines a game as a survival, crafting, and building game. 

You need to loot to the extreme to keep up with your gamestage. Especially if you don´t want to stay in the forest the whole game. So yeah, it´s looting, looting and more looting. Wich many did before, but now it´s a must for everyone. The freedom is gone. It´s linear now.  Combined with all the arcady stuff added it´s very much a loot shooter with survival and tower defense elements. Wich no one could tell by looking at the kickstarter or even just looking at the development from release up to A20. So no, i don´t think loot shooter is an extreme point of view here. 

 

[canadianbluebeer]

Getting the books is one thing, getting the PARTS, well....

Day 9 (90min days), and the books while plentiful, you do need a bunch to get to the GOOD stuff.

Agonizing over taking the bullets or books as quest reward.

Grinding a bunch to spend 15k on a crucible to make steel.  (Jen had one.  got to 15,036 dukes...)  

Finally got to where I could cook tacos/chilidogs and now shepards pie.  That took a LOT of cocckery books.

(psgetti is next.. my fav)

Can't make many of the good foods, but have over 200 meat and 78 eggs.  (yes, eggs are plentiful, and chickens/wabbits and bambi...)

Still can't get motorized transport yet, and GAS is miserly. Have a couple hundred shale that A) don't know how to make gas, B) can't make chemstation yet.

So, yeah, some books climb fast, but doesn't mean you can DO much with it.

However, since you CAN make lower tier stuff out of what you do have....

Oh, water for making glue -> duct tape  -> stuff  is still slow.

Gonna buy a buncha tape soon.  75 per tape, yet 120 for 1 water.  umm...

I'm a fan of the books now.

 

[boban]

You need to loot to the extreme to keep up with your gamestage. Especially if don´t wanna stay in the forest the whole game. So yeah, it´s looting, looting and more looting.

They designed all those beautiful POIs, so you should be forced to visit them! /s

Seriously though, that was the trend since A17 (since introduction of 'dungeon' type POIs). I don't mind looting, I like to vary my game. But now I feel that if I'm not looting, I'm wasting my time / not progressing. I.e., now I feel like I'm forced to constantly loot and do quests.

 

[Lasher]

Perhaps things aren’t turning out the way you and some others wanted but to say this game is only a looter shooter when it used to be a survival crafting and building game is simply a narrow and extreme view. Most players still build, craft, survive, loot, shoot, melee, explore, cook, mine, farm, quest, and accomplish whatever personal objectives they’ve given themselves. And that is because, in reality, all of those elements are still in the game desire the extreme perspective of a few. 

It's interesting to me that every time TFP change a mechanic that people don't particularly like the feedback is that they're being "Narrow minded" and "Extreme".

Yes players are still crafting and building, because they HAVE to - but what does the new progression system do for their progression I wonder?

Here's an idea - seeing as there seems to be a general sentiment that it's a "minority" view - how about we put up a pole on the front page of the forums - "Which type of progression did you prefer - Learn by doing, Skill perks, Or the new Learn by Looting"?

Now, I'm not suggesting that TFP would EVER change the system back based on player feedback - that's just not their way - we're supposed to play the game the way THEY want us to play it (the very definition of sandbox <sarc&gt but it would once and for all put to bed the idea that these are "Minority" opinions by "narrow minded and extreme" players.

I posted some time ago that people may not like these changes and was met with replies of "well we're sure they'll change it if people don't" - Nonsense.

So how about a poll?

Sound fair?

 

[boban]

it would once and for all put to bed the idea that these are "Minority" opinions by "narrow minded and extreme" players.

It wouldn't. You'll hear and argument that "average forum poster isn't an average player". Which I can guess is valid response. If they would put a poll on the start menu of the game that might be better (but not without issues as well, e.g., possibly majority of current players never experienced LBD before A17).

 

[Lasher]

It wouldn't. You'll hear and argument that "average forum poster isn't an average player". Which I can guess is valid response. If they would put a poll on the start menu of the game that might be better (but not without issues as well, e.g., possibly majority of current players never experienced LBD before A17).

Yeah - true enough - not that it would make a blind bit of difference anyway - but it would be funny to see the results.

 

[Roland]

It's interesting to me that every time TFP change a mechanic that people don't particularly like the feedback is that they're being "Narrow minded" and "Extreme".

Yes players are still crafting and building, because they HAVE to - but what does the new progression system do for their progression I wonder?

Here's an idea - seeing as there seems to be a general sentiment that it's a "minority" view - how about we put up a pole on the front page of the forums - "Which type of progression did you prefer - Learn by doing, Skill perks, Or the new Learn by Looting"?

Now, I'm not suggesting that TFP would EVER change the system back based on player feedback - that's just not their way - we're supposed to play the game the way THEY want us to play it (the very definition of sandbox <sarc&gt but it would once and for all put to bed the idea that these are "Minority" opinions by "narrow minded and extreme" players.

I posted some time ago that people may not like these changes and was met with replies of "well we're sure they'll change it if people don't" - Nonsense.

So how about a poll?

Sound fair?

Its not the criticism that prompted me to say they were being narrow-minded. It was their apparent definition of what makes a game a survival, crafting, building game because if this isn’t one then nothing is. 
 

A poll? Go ahead. Users can create polls. We can do one now and another in a few months for the first impression result and then the more long term game loop view. 
 

I never said they would change it if people didn’t like it. I said they may make adjustments to it if people didn’t like it. But right now it is a very mixed bag with quite a few people also very much enjoying it. It is going to take a few months to get a clear picture. Some people who like it initially may change their mind after a long term play and some who dislike it at first try will change their mind and like it after a long term play. 
 

it’s still the first week. 

 

[Roland]

Are

Yeah, it’s not finished but it is getting closer and with each development cycle the game gets closer to the design the developers desire which means that if your desires run contrary to theirs then you may have to alter the game in some way. The good news is that it is easy to alter so there will be many many variations out there for anyone to get the experience they want.

 

[Cattrina]

It’s interesting that you say that when in every game I play with A21 I am still surviving, crafting, and building. I’m still prepping for horde nights. I’m still doing everything I have done plus more since I began playing this game. 
 

Another thing that is interesting is that you talk about how much you dislike the amount of looting and shooting but at the same time can’t wait for bandits. What do you think bandits are going to bring to the game if not more looting and shooting?  Did you think the bandits are going to help you survive, craft, and build? They’re not. They will be new targets to shoot and their lairs will be new places to loot. 

This game is meant to be played in the default version by doing many activities that complement each other. Only wanting to focus on a few of them is fine but it is going to require some adjustments to settings or modding. Maybe it used to not be that way but that was only because there were so many unfinished aspects of the game. 
 

Perhaps things aren’t turning out the way you and some others wanted but to say this game is only a looter shooter when it used to be a survival crafting and building game is simply a narrow and extreme view. Most players still build, craft, survive, loot, shoot, melee, explore, cook, mine, farm, quest, and accomplish whatever personal objectives they’ve given themselves. And that is because, in reality, all of those elements are still in the game despite the extreme perspective of a few. 

Thankfully there are mods for people who want to change the game to whatever they think defines a game as a survival, crafting, and building game. 

The main difference is now I have to loot to be able to build. It is bottle-necking my enjoyment. I am stuck doing nothing but looting until I can build a workbench, forge, get a crucible. There is no point building with cobble. I need concrete. So I live in a gas station hoping to one day find the magazines I need. It has been 5 real life days. On day 22 now in game. I am on 16/75 on workbenches.

Oh the bandits are not gonna come to you and attack? I was hoping they would come in and steal my stuff. oh, well.

 

[OgreSlayeR]

How is everyone's experience now with the latest patch that nerfed finding mags a bit? So far I feel it feels a lot better and balanced (although a bit early to say, perhaps), but it's hard to compare it cause I had godly RNG with my first world being spawned near a big city with a big Crack- A-Book store, tons of mail boxes, a trader etc.

My current world is decent with a small town near the trader and I looted 1 small Crack -A-Book store and several mail boxes and other misc boxes. I'm currently sitting with a Q2 Wood Club compared to a Q5 Stone Spear (which was achieved right before Day 2) on the morning of Day 2.

 

[meganoth]

The main difference is now I have to loot to be able to build. It is bottle-necking my enjoyment. I am stuck doing nothing but looting until I can build a workbench, forge, get a crucible. There is no point building with cobble. I need concrete. So I live in a gas station hoping to one day find the magazines I need. It has been 5 real life days. On day 22 now in game. I am on 16/75 on workbenches.

Oh the bandits are not gonna come to you and attack? I was hoping they would come in and steal my stuff. oh, well.

The RPG-style progression was always "in the cards" for this game. If your goal in building is to survive the bloodmoon horde then cobblestone is quite on par with the horde you get at that time and not useless. And since it is upgradable it also isn't a dead-end.

If your goal in building is artistic though you should turn on creative menu. The same goes if you are megalomaniac builder without time

 

[RipClaw]

If your goal in building is to survive the bloodmoon horde then cobblestone is quite on par with the horde you get at that time and not useless.

In A21, it depends on which biome you're in. In the desert, a horde on day 7 might be too much for cobblestone, and if you're in the winter biome or the wasteland, concrete is the absolute minimum. But for the pine forest, the point is true. I fought the day 7 horde in a cobblestone base and had hardly any damage.

 

[Lumpus]

A21 Build 317 really nerfed the skill book bundles.... but skill boxes were way too OP and common (imho) earlier.  Now in my new game, I'm actually picking different rewards, sometimes.  The intent was clearly to slow down the player game progression... and this has definitely done that.

 

[BFT2020]

I found it also depends on where you spawn in.  I spawn in next to a very small town with not a lot of POIs in it.  Progression is slower because you don't have all of those news stands to loot.

Right now, as an agility build, I can only craft Q2 bone knives (though I already found enough magazines to unlock the workbench).

 

[OgreSlayeR]

I found it also depends on where you spawn in.  I spawn in next to a very small town with not a lot of POIs in it.  Progression is slower because you don't have all of those news stands to loot.

Right now, as an agility build, I can only craft Q2 bone knives (though I already found enough magazines to unlock the workbench).

Very true, spawning near a city will give you a big head start cause you will find mags everywhere just it won't be quite as insane as it was before.