PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

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It takes 70 workbench magazines to craft a crucible. Steel craftables start becoming available much earlier. And now you nerfed the magazine finds with today's patch. I'm good with everything taking longer to reach but now you are making the level 70 workbench goal negligible as players are far more likely to either find it or buy it off the trader before ever coming close to 70 magazines.

 
Guys, what the hell?

  • Increased the price of water filters 
This is already difficult for to have a susteinable water source for glue farming, drinking water and food and harder in multiplayer while playing with friends, why make it even difficult?? 

  • Reduced the quantity of crafting magazines in quest reward bundle from 3/3 to 3/2 
  • Reduced the quantity of crafting magazines found in mailboxes, file cabinets, book piles, and crackabook shelves 
The problem is not the aboundance of magazines, but the kind of books to receive. I keep receive books about vehicles, robotics and explosives when I am at day 5 and unable to build a forge yet because I didn't found the right book. Now it's even hard and I fear that I have to grind and explore everything and wasting time instead of preparing for the horde in day 7, not fun at all.

  • Reduced attack range and damage of short zombies 
  • Reduced attack range of crawler and spider zombies 
At least this is a good fix, can we also please fix the zombies that hit your legs when they're downed by a club but they insta teleport into prone position on the other side of the door and hit you through that door? That's really annoying.

Personally I despise the dew farming thing and the book system. I don't like it at all. Makes the game a lot less fun to play but more grinding while leaving less time to prepare for horde.

 
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Not too sure what happened but uh, I guess good bye to that save with today's patch, spawned in to a death and after doing a quest I realized that the character itself is entirely reset progression-wise and has only 1 skill point after leveling up once from the quest.

 
I haven't been able to log in yet, what was the price increased to? 1500 was pretty cheap and reasonable for the filters prior to the change.
I'm confident that milage will vary dramatically with regards to having the cash. I usually can afford one, even buying food and water, before I have the plastics to make the collector. However, I quest a decent amount, while I can image folks who don't quest as much and take things at a more casual pace could find it pricey.

 
I'm confident that milage will vary dramatically with regards to having the cash. I usually can afford one, even buying food and water, before I have the plastics to make the collector. However, I quest a decent amount, while I can image folks who don't quest as much and take things at a more casual pace could find it pricey.


That's a good point. I had around 1500 dukes or so just doing T1 quests, but I forgot not everyone enjoys questing.

 
Hi guys. Just Registered after a loooong time reading only.  Just a Short feedback about a21:

Pros

Nice new items, pois, traders

Shorter loading time

Water survival feels a bit weird without bottles but kinda challenging at times

Rebalancing bioms and their difficulties + loot. high reward for high risk is amazing.

Contra

I really miss the skills. Skills should be linked to the actions the player does. It feels way off with the magazines. I just loot for days to progress without mining, building, don't care much about specializing in certain weapon/class. After the second feral night I feel quite powerful in several weapons without having used such a lot, powerful in mining tool without mining at all, powerful in salvaging without actually salvage a lot... I guess you get the idea...

Maybe my playstyle is wrong or old fashioned (sticking to previous alphas)

I think I would have to wait for undead legacy then. Please, subquake, keep the skills in!

Besides that a nice alpha so far. Thanks for your effort. Will try out the building aspect now with  new blocks.

 
Not too sure what happened but uh, I guess good bye to that save with today's patch, spawned in to a death and after doing a quest I realized that the character itself is entirely reset progression-wise and has only 1 skill point after leveling up once from the quest.


This is often the case during experimental. Often mistake the term "stable" to mean bug free but what it really means is that your save game is stable and won't break with each new update. There is no guarantee of that with experimental. I've had to restart the game countless times over the past year as new builds break previous ones. They usually do give warning and if they didn't it was simply because they overlooked the skill reset on characters.

 
Okay, so I got to do my GS75 horde and it was fun as heck... then we got the update so, wiped everything, cleaned everything, made a new random world and started fresh.  I love this part of the game.  However, may I say that, though I agree magazine reduction was necessary, I really, REALLY miss that option to choose the magazine bundle for EACH quest reward.  For the folks that don't want them, fine, take something else.  After all, you have quite a few more choices than in a20.  The sheer number of magazines needed to gain significant proficiency in any one area cannot be downplayed.  Yes, you were getting several magazines for each quest.  However, you never knew WHICH magazines you were going to get since the weighting didn't always carry through for that reward.  I mean, why on earth would I have wanted 46 magazines of a type I wasn't going to use until possibly late game?  It's a crap shoot, and a good one!  Sometimes you get the good stuff, sometimes you don't.  I would like to have them back as guaranteed rewards.  

Thank you very much for the adjustment to zombie smackdowns.  That was so annoying and I sure do hope the constant bleeds are repaired.  I've not gotten a significant one yet, so... maybe?  LOVING THIS ALPHA!

 
Possibly. What and when entity network data is sent has been optimized. Data is sent less often when farther away. More when close. Player outfits and anims are being redone for A22, which they are already working on.


Sounds great, one thing I was hoping to get an answer to is does it currently network the velocity and do the animations use that for the walk animations, if this is the case then to me that would be an relatively easy fix to just have the velocity calculated client side based on the position alone which would make it look a lot better already. Assuming it doesn't make it to A21 I will consider to just mod this myself, however this requires EAC to be disabled and the mod would only make sense for multiplayer so thats a bit unfortunate if we have to actually wait for the next release to have somewhat reasonable player animations and the update rate wouldn't even matter then.

 
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Is the remade Navezgane map supposed to always spawn you in the middle of nowhere and the trader is always Joel who is also in the middle of nowhere?

Tried six games with various spawn locations but always the result I mentioned above.  I thought I would try out the new and improved Navezgane but if this is intended I will go back to a random map.

 
The game is setup for 1 to 8 players. If the players actually cooperate then 8 players will probably be ~5 times faster at crafting progression than a single player. And a major reason is that 8 players get 8 times the quest rewards for a quest than a single player and in each quest reward is a guaranteed magazine pack. While the amount of magazines they found in the POI is fixed no matter how many players there are.

I am playing in a group of 4 and we hardly had any time in the game. We are just on day 4 or 5 and I can craft tier 1 quality 5 weapons while loot is somewhere at tier0 quality 3.  Though the progress is very random, it seems I was lucky with the drops.

So for me the conclusion is that TFPs decision to put less magazines into the quest reward is absolutely correct and severly needed. And I except they need to reduce it even further.

My suggestion would be to change the magazine reward into showing the specific magazines you get, because then players in large groups will more often select a different reward that benefits them directly instead of picking the magazines that someone else wants.
Ok, so it works for the larger groups but not for smaller?  The original way worked for both but benefited the larger groups more.  I think this shows a clear imbalance in the system that needs to be addressed.  For one, I don't really think magazines should be a reward at all because it greatly pushes the game toward questing rather than being more open to doing what you want and progressing in a relatively similar rate.  And I quest a lot, so I'm not saying that as someone who doesn't want to quest.  It also helps to unbalance the game by putting too many magazines in the player's hands too quickly, imo.  But let's skip that for now... the thing we're talking about is quantity in the world.  As it was initially, it was just barely keeping up with loot progression.  I could loot stuff slightly faster than I could craft in, on average, in a 2 player game with default loot settings.  By reducing magazines, it means that I'll be crafting even more slowly and so I will loot weapons, tools, armor faster than I can craft them, putting me in the same situation as A20, where I might end up not crafting again because I find everything before I can craft it.  As I had said in what you quoted, we'll see.  I have obviously not tested it yet to know and am making an assumption based on the rate of crafting skill compared to loot/quest rewards for weapons/armor/tools in the original numbers of magazines and less magazines would suggest crafting will progress more slowly without any change to loot/quest reward progression.

Now, this comes down to a couple of things and this is a major reason why balance is an issue.  We do not go out trying to hit all the mailboxes right away or loot crack a books regularly.  We loot these as we come across them but do not seek them out.  As such, crafting will progress more slowly than those who seek them out.  So, in regards to balance, do you balance it so those who rush to get magazines will only be able to craft a little better than what they are looting and getting as quest rewards, which in turn makes it so those who do not are easily outpacing crafting with loot/quest rewards?  Or do you balance it so those who do not rush to get magazines are able to craft a little better than what they are looting and getting as quest rewards, which in turn means those who rush to get magazines will craft things much faster than they loot and quest rewards progress?  The question there is which do you consider the "normal" way to play or the "recommended" way to play?  You should balance for that and not for those who play in other ways.  To me, the rush method is a min/max method and not what you'd balance for.

So we are left with trying to balance this based on number of players as more players means it's faster to gain crafting skill as well as balancing based on whether or not people rush magazines (min/max method) or play in a more "normal" way.  And you'll never get a real balance between these.  It would be better for magazines to scale based on number of players but they game isn't designed for that.  I think that, in the end, you need to balance it based on not rushing magazines and on a 3-4 player game as that is likely your average number of players per game over all games (check actual data and use whatever is the average) because then you're at least balanced for the average game even if not for everyone.  No way to balance it for everyone with this system.  To be clear, I do like this system.  But it has clear drawbacks for balancing it.

 
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Probably been said, but I'll say it anyway. The dew collector could speed thing up a bit, or several, when it rains, no?


No. If it did that you could stand next to a dew collector when it rained and collect more or less infinite water.  What they could do though, which would be a nod to collecting rain without being massively OP, is leave the dew collectors ticking along at their usual pace while it's raining then set them to full when it stops raining.

 
But let me ask you: If bringing back magazines is such an advantageous method in the game that you call it perfect play or the player a perfect player then isn't that proof that there is an incentive to doing it?
Well, if you'd noticed that I'd argued multiple times by that point that it doesn't solve anything, then you could've concluded rightly that it wasn't hyperbole but sarcasm to call it "perfect".  🙄
 

If you still think there is an issue here, please answer this question: Exactly which magazines does a builder need to read for himself in your opinion?
Considering that when I offered what I think are potential solutions of bumping up the exp gain on resource gathering and the prices to sell bulk materials to the trader before following that with "and 'maybe' ensuring that tool mags were always available", so that the stay at home can buy their own books and tools, your conclusion should've been that magazines aren't my emphasis. 🙄

This may already be partially solved dependent on RNG in (b313), by there at least being a chance to find an affordable tool that will synergize with resource gathering perks.

  • Adjusted quality ranges of tools and weapons in trader inventories for more variety.
And as of (b317) the dynamic between quester and stay at home has shifted again, both in that it's reduced the crafting skill gap and that it's reduced the number of transferable magazines, especially the ones that are quickest to transfer to the stay at homes, the quest reward bundles. 

  • Crafting magazine bundle is no longer fixed as a guaranteed quest reward 
  • Reduced the quantity of crafting magazines in quest reward bundle from 3/3 to 3/2 
  • Reduced the quantity of crafting magazines found in mailboxes, file cabinets, book piles, and crackabook shelves 
     
Right now we all are just guessing like we have done for months
This isn't exactly true since I've had it since streamer weekend and the problem comes up in early game, which makes it a breeze to restart and retest. (b317) will be my third restart focusing on the first 7 days, and my 4th in total as I'm also playing one through to watch for changes in progression over the longer game. You wouldn't believe how much time you have to play when you're old and retired. 😂

 

So who was moving the goal posts to level 35 exactly? 😉
That would be you. The struggle is pretty much over after the first 7 days and unless you're playing on 300% exp you're just not going to make lvl 35 in that time and you're definitely not going to do it without questing.

 

Oh, come on, is this a contest now where we have to try to find more rhetorical strategies/fallacies than the other?
Then maybe don't do that and I won't respond likewise?

 

Have you tried this with A21?
Yes, I gave an approximation of hours played by restricting it to the first 7 days and the number of restarts, besides engaging in every possible harvesting task and turning those into building tasks the only viable adaptation is questing, and I understand the push to get more people questing, but an awful lot of people are just never going to do that until they're 'ready' and making it more difficult for them to get that way is counterproductive to that goal.

Our role in EA besides spectator is tester, not analyst.
It's a good thing that's not my job and I'm not applying for the position then, huh? 😂

 

Yes. This is very difficult to balance. Someone here said he has done 10 tier1 quests on the first day.
That wouldn't be surprising if they spawned with a trader near a city, wilderness and Navezgane spawns not so much.  I don't think that anything that I've suggested would make those city spawns more OP. In fact, city spawns might already be a wash for the stay at homes because of the number of cars and other resources available from scrapping, but I really like wilderness and Navezgane spawns.
 

but he went on quests as well.
That's the kicker right there. 

Yes, it needs tested, and maybe tweaks.
Agreed.
 

 
Suggesting the other player turn up loot abundance means they will get a lot more of everything when they only want the crappy magazines.

That may be a temporary remedy, but is a cheap, sloppy, insulting suggestion which does more harm than good.
That was addressed at their play style, which actually needs more of all loot. As an example, if I had 3 people hanging out at base and not wanting to loot, so I was the sole looter supporting them, then I would certainly turn up loot abundance to feed them all the items they want. Granted I now have a transport issue, but I would not be going so far as nearby loot containers would have x2. If it was me, I'd tell them to do their own looting and not have to change abundance.

Hardly temporary as you would be playing the whole game like that.

Not too sure what happened but uh, I guess good bye to that save with today's patch, spawned in to a death and after doing a quest I realized that the character itself is entirely reset progression-wise and has only 1 skill point after leveling up once from the quest.
Sometimes data changes break things. It can be worked around. My daughter's game is on day 42. She used the giveselfxp console command to get her level back up and used the creative menu to get magazines back to approximately where she was.

 
Now I am @%$#ed. The update today reset my level and all my read books to 0 I got all my stuff but cant make stuff now.
See the topic in General Discussion for info on regaining that.  Note that this is experimental and such things are going to happen with updates.

 
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