PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Roland]

The disadvantage of such a specialization is that you have to rely on this person. If the person is not online, then you can collect all the magazines you want, but no one will be able to make better tools for the group.

 Yes, well that is simply a matter of coordinating  rl schedules which can be problematic for any game. The fact that you DO actually have to rely on each other enhances the team building feeling of the game and more than compensates for those times when someone can’t get on to play because it really makes you work as a group. I love that and yes sometimes it’s a bummer when someone can’t get on for an evening— it always is. Then you just have to make do with what you have for that evening. 

 

[Archer]

 Yes, well that is simply a matter of coordinating  rl schedules which can be problematic for any game. The fact that you DO actually have to rely on each other enhances the team building feeling of the game and more than compensates for those times when someone can’t get on to play because it really makes you work as a group. I love that and yes sometimes it’s a bummer when someone can’t get on for an evening— it always is. Then you just have to make do with what you have for that evening. 

Yeah this aspect of things does not bother me, personally. 
Edit: In fact, we already depended on one another, we already sorted books out to people who used/depended on them more, and we already had very niche, role based jobs for everyone in the group. 

That's kind of why this update seems to be so out of left field with this *one* aspect of the update itself, it just makes no sense why people who aren't usually crafters - they're typically out focused on actually getting loot - not crafting, are going to be the ones who have an increased chance of getting books/magazines for stuff that they themselves are not really usually allocated to making for the sole fact that they're usually already busy doing other things, specifically *looting*. 

This is why I've actually bothered to make a forum account after 10 years, it's just such a bizarre change that seems to be targeted entirely at solo players who get bored sitting around their bases by themselves, and want 'more content' to keep them busy. 

It just sounds like the dev team is trying to make both types of players happy and having trouble keeping one side balanced, while making the other side engaging enough. 

 

[Roland]

Honestly, we never did read every book we've always been good at funneling those to the right person, none of us just read books we picked up, we even had crates dedicated just to books based on the specialized role they had in the group for what they did. 
The problem is that certain things now look like they're going to take longer to get to the people who need them. 
Someone who loots is rarely the same person who crafts tools and items. 
However, the person looting gets the increased odds of a thing they spec'd into dropping a corresponding mag/book. 
Which sounds like the people back at base - who need the recipes the most to be able to build better tools or whatever - are going to be the last in line to getting the stuff they need, unless that person doing the looting is also spec'd into building the better tools like the person back at base waiting on a magazine/book if I'm understanding the new system correctly

In my experience you get further up the crafting tiers easier and faster in group play than you do in single player. It does take some coordination as a group to make it all work but it really does. It becomes intuitive and if your group already shares books well you will slip into the new feature seamlessly. I found the coordination and “work” of helping others advance in their craftsmanship to feel very rewarding and definitely one of those emergent objectives that great games always have. You’ll be celebrating with your cook whenever you find a cooking mag for THEM to read. 
 

If your looters don’t care about crafting they will very quickly grok that reading mags for them is a waste. They’ll learn to bring them back as a type of resource just like people who bring back iron, wood, stone, and clay for others to make stuff in the forge. 

Also you can tell them to loot POIs with a building theme like Working Stiffs and they’ll find plenty of building mags regardless of what they are perked into. The nine mags you get from quest rewards are pretty random as well. 
 

Really it just comes down to how fast you want to progress. If you want best tools fast then get out there and help loot and quest. If you’re okay with a slower progression to best tools then stay home and build and the mags will come to you in time. 

 

[Archer]

In my experience you get further up the crafting tiers easier and faster in group play than you do in single player. It does take some coordination as a group to make it all work but it really does. It becomes intuitive and if your group already shares books well you will slip into the new feature seamlessly. I found the coordination and “work” of helping others advance in their craftsmanship to feel very rewarding and definitely one of those emergent objectives that great games always have. You’ll be celebrating with your cook whenever you find a cooking mag for THEM to read. 
 

If your looters don’t care about crafting they will very quickly grok that reading mags for them is a waste. They’ll learn to bring them back as a type of resource just like people who bring back iron, wood, stone, and clay for others to make stuff in the forge. 
 

I must be doing a poor job of communicating what my concern is lol I'm sure you're answering me as best as possible (It looks like you've probably been dutifully answering these questions for hours), maybe my brain is just too much mud to understand what you're saying. 

I *understand* that getting the right mag to the right person is a thing any of us can do.

What I *dont* understand, is why we're giving the increased chances for a person to get a magazine, to a person who is usually not going to be using that magazine, because they're usually spending their time on the server out looting, sometimes spending 3-4 days or more in-game time away from the base out gathering resources we use for the base on blood moon. Yet the new mechanic is giving those looting a perk for things they spec in.
 
Looters don't *need* perks for magazines to drop to build tools, at least not in groups, because it's the builders and crafters at the base who are the ones building the tools, thus are the ones who need the recipes, yet there's no perk or bonus for the ones back at base to get the drop they need. The individual out looting doesn't get a drop bonus for that individual who needs it more back at home, so the effect of the drops increasing are never going to funnel to the person who needs/deserves the increased chances to obtain the magazine so they can make the tool. 
Which is why I've said a few times here and in other places, this seems to be tailored to cater to single players or duos of players, and while it makes the game more engaging for people who are playing it solo, it throws a weird wrench into things for the groups. 
 

 

[Roland]

Most cabinets and sink cabinets do not open after looting them despite already having open versions made for them. I've seen it in all the streams (I watched like 7 different ones already? lol) in every gameplay mode, so I believe devs know? If not, they do now?

Yeah, I’ve noticed some don’t turn. I don’t know what the intention there is whether it’s a bug or they haven’t finished updating them or if they plan to keep it where some do it but others don’t. 
 

I must be doing a poor job of communicating what my concern is lol I'm sure you're answering me as best as possible (It looks like you've probably been dutifully answering these questions for hours), maybe my brain is just too much mud to understand what you're saying. 

I *understand* that getting the right mag to the right person is a thing any of us can do.

What I *dont* understand, is why we're giving the increased chances for a person to get a drop, is going to a person who is usually not going to be using that drop that they had the increased chance of getting, because they're usually spending their time on the server out looting, sometimes spending 3-4 days or more in-game time away from the base out gathering resources we use for the base on blood moon. Yet the new mechanic is giving those individuals a perk for things they spec in. 
Looters don't *need* perks for magazines to build tools, because it's the builders and crafters are the ones building the tools, thus are the ones who need the recipes, yet there's no perk or bonus for the ones they need to drop, just because someone who they're playing with is out looting it *for* them if that makes sense.
Which is why I've said a few times here and in other places, this seems to be tailored to cater to single players or duos of players, and while it makes the game more engaging for people who are playing it solo, it throws a weird wrench into things for the groups. 
 

You’re placing too much emphasis on the perk boost. The boost isn’t a min/max mechanic that makes it stupid for certain people to open certain containers. It is simply a safety net so that you don’t get completely screwed by RNG and never find the mags you need. Your looters will find a wide variety of magazines especially with multiple people all looting and questing. They will find plenty of cooking, farming, and building type mags even if they’re perked into machine guns. I’ve often been able to craft a better unperked weapon than my perked weapon for a time because it is still random and the boost guarantees nothing other than never not finding what you need. 
 

No doubt if you join in quests and looting you’ll move up the building tools crafting faster but If you don’t loot or quest at all you’ll still move up. 
 

The bigger concern would be looters staying away for 3-4 days at a time. I suspect they’ll either come back to base more often or you’ll want to make a run to whatever outpost they have your stack of magazines stored at…

 

[Archer]

Yeah, I’ve noticed some don’t turn. I don’t know what the intention there is whether it’s a bug or they haven’t finished updating them or if they plan to keep it where some do it but others don’t. 
 

You’re giving too much emphasis on the perk boost. The boost isn’t a min/max mechanic. It is a safety net so that you don’t get completely screwed by RNG. Your looters will find a wide variety of magazines. They will find plenty of cooking, farming, and building type mags even if they’re perked into machine guns. 
 

No doubt if you join in quests and looting you’ll move up the building tools crafting faster but If you don’t loot or quest at all you’ll still move up. 
 

The bigger concern would be looter staying away for 3-4 days at a time. I suspect they’ll either come back to base more often or you’ll have to make a run to whatever outpost they have your stack of magazines stored at…

After the game progresses to a certain point, if you're supporting a population of more than 10 individuals, the 'looted' radius around the base grows quite quickly after a couple of weeks, and you have to go further, and further, and further out to find an adequate amount of a particular item or resource. Brass especially becomes a difficult thing, and we sometimes in very late game in the current build would melt down a lot of our dukes (I mean thousands of 'em) to make it through the next blood moons in the later game stages in the 200+ range. 

So it becomes fundamentally necessary for looters to go further out, and thus be gone longer and longer to get to and from those places. Even with all the vehicles unlocked and available in the game, it takes a lot of time to support a base with a big crowd of people. 

 

[RipClaw]

You’re placing too much emphasis on the perk boost. The boost isn’t a min/max mechanic that makes it stupid for certain people to open certain containers. It is simply a safety net so that you don’t get completely screwed by RNG and never find the mags you need. Your looters will find a wide variety of magazines especially with multiple people all looting and questing. They will find plenty of cooking, farming, and building type mags even if they’re perked into machine guns. I’ve often been able to craft a better unperked weapon than my perked weapon for a time because it is still random and the boost guarantees nothing other than never not finding what you need. 

It has always been said that it is a safety net but then you would expect an approximate equal distribution in the magazines. But if you look at the streams, you'll notice that players are finding significantly more magazines for their specialization. Either luck is on the players side or the boost is bigger than you think.
 

 

[Old Crow]

Here's another thing I had a question on @Roland if you happen to know - "Explosion kills can trigger buff effects"

What's this mean? Would a zombie death by say, a contact grenade, trigger the stamina regain of Flurry of Blows rank 3?

 

[Roland]

It has always been said that it is a safety net but then you would expect an approximate equal distribution in the magazines. But if you look at the streams, you'll notice that players are finding significantly more magazines for their specialization. Either luck is on the players side or the boost is bigger than you think.
 

All I can speak to is my own experience and we have had streamers ask on the discord if the boost was functioning because they didn’t feel like they were finding the parts and mags that lined up with their perks. Those same streamers could start a new world and have a different experience. I’ve seen it both ways but I’ve always always gathered in a large variety of magazines and with multiple looters you find a ton that everyone can use. 
 

After Monday we will have threads reporting that the progression is too fast because the boost is too strong and threads demanding that the boost be fixed because it’s Day 7 and their perked weapon is still an orange level primitive…

 

[Jost Amman]

Someone who loots is rarely the same person who crafts tools and items. 

How is that a problem?

Suppose that the guy who goes out looting is specialized in shotguns. He will need better shotguns, right?

Well, you said that back at home, you have the "crafters". That guy will also find more shotgun related magazines, but he will bring them back to the crafters so that they can become great at crafting shotguns. Once they do, they'll craft better and better shotguns for their friends who are looting.

The same goes for every other type of specialization, every looter will need better versions of what they use as a weapon/armor or tool, so the crafters will have more magazines to support them by crafting what they need.

That's the PLUS of the new system. Now let's get a look at the NORMAL part.

Your crafter builders will want to be able to craft better tools, some workstations and maybe some vehicles, so they need magazines for that.

In this case, they won't get the BONUS on loot, because their friends won't be specialized into that stuff.

But that's easily counterbalanced by the fact that a lot of people who go out looting will still find A LOT of other magazines for stuff they're not specialized into, PLUS they can go to "themed" POIs where you know you'll find MORE of the magazines your friends need, PLUS, the "questers", can get Magazine Bundles as quest rewards and have a bigger chance to get also magazines for their friends, PLUS you can BUY magazines from the trader.

All in all, it doesn't look that bad to me.

Also, I don't think it's fair, both in real life and in a game, to get rewards for things you don't do yourself (e.g.: if you stay home, fine, but why should you get the loot bonus??).

 

[Roland]

Here's another thing I had a question on @Roland if you happen to know - "Explosion kills can trigger buff effects"

What's this mean? Would a zombie death by say, a contact grenade, trigger the stamina regain of Flurry of Blows rank 3?

Sorry. I don’t know for sure. I doubt it would affect flurry of Blows since that is specific to clubs but it may affect buffs you currently have from candy like bonus xp gain from kills etc. Just guessing. 

 

[Neminsis]

I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the new progression.

And I think that you're not taking into account how the exp gain rate for miners and builders is tied to the quality of the tools they're using.

 

It actually hurts the group for looters to read everything they find.

And yet the looters are incentivized to do just that by the sheer number of books, the overall generous amounts of loot, and the limits of inventory and encumbrance. 

We've been testing this dynamic specifically, and yes the stay at homes can keep up levels wise for a time, but once the looters have a bicycle their exp gain takes off. If you do not do those quests at the same rate as the looters you're left behind. The looters are incentivized to progress through the quest tiers as quickly as possible, which only widens the gap in exp gain and equipment levels. 

Part of the problem is that looters need the same tools as the stay at homes, which sets up competition for the tool crafting books. It's somewhat offset by the ability to sell bulk resources to the trader and buying books, but the area around the base is quickly stripped and then you're facing mobility problems. You have to quest and when you do you'll be under equipped and subject to the same party game stage 'bonus' so your solo questing will be extra difficult or you're playing tagalong. It really doesn't matter how altruistic your teammates are, you have to quest.

 

[PoloPoPo]

After the game progresses to a certain point, if you're supporting a population of more than 10 individuals, the 'looted' radius around the base grows quite quickly after a couple of weeks, and you have to go further, and further, and further out to find an adequate amount of a particular item or resource. Brass especially becomes a difficult thing, and we sometimes in very late game in the current build would melt down a lot of our dukes (I mean thousands of 'em) to make it through the next blood moons in the later game stages in the 200+ range. 

So it becomes fundamentally necessary for looters to go further out, and thus be gone longer and longer to get to and from those places. Even with all the vehicles unlocked and available in the game, it takes a lot of time to support a base with a big crowd of people. 

In my opinion you are overthinking the whole magazines topic. If you have 10 people looting the whole time simultaneously they will bring back hundreds of magazines to your base per day. You, as the crafter / builder / whatever, that never leaves the base, will read magazines much more frequently than a solo mode player could ever dream of simply because the amount of found magazines is multiplied by the amount of people looting. If your looters don't read the magazines themselves but bring them back to you there won't be any problems, I am sure just from what I have seen in the A21 streams yesterday.

 

[Old Crow]

Sorry. I don’t know for sure. I doubt it would affect flurry of Blows since that is specific to clubs but it may affect buffs you currently have from candy like bonus xp gain from kills etc. Just guessing. 

No worries! I was using the current Flurry of Blows as an example but I get what you're saying.

 

[Aldranon]

I bet spears get nerfed in a week if not sooner.

I hope not, because it would be fun to try a "fully operational" spear build for a few months.

 

[Archer]

How is that a problem?

Suppose that the guy who goes out looting is specialized in shotguns. He will need better shotguns, right?

Well, you said that back at home, you have the "crafters". That guy will also find more shotgun related magazines, but he will bring them back to the crafters so that they can become great at crafting shotguns. Once they do, they'll craft better and better shotguns for their friends who are looting.

The same goes for every other type of specialization, every looter will need better versions of what they use as a weapon/armor or tool, so the crafters will have more magazines to support them by crafting what they need.

That's the PLUS of the new system. Now let's get a look at the NORMAL part.

Your crafter builders will want to be able to craft better tools, some workstations and maybe some vehicles, so they need magazines for that.

In this case, they won't get the BONUS on loot, because their friends won't be specialized into that stuff.

But that's easily counterbalanced by the fact that a lot of people who go out looting will still find A LOT of other magazines for stuff they're not specialized into, PLUS they can go to "themed" POIs where you know you'll find MORE of the magazines your friends need, PLUS, the "questers", can get Magazine Bundles as quest rewards and have a bigger chance to get also magazines for their friends, PLUS you can BUY magazines from the trader.

All in all, it doesn't look that bad to me.

Also, I don't think it's fair, both in real life and in a game, to get rewards for things you don't do yourself (e.g.: if you stay home, fine, but why should you get the loot bonus??).

You make some good points here, but I still have to point out that the need for 'looted-only-stuff' in the game goes up significantly under this mechanic, and you mentioned 'a lot of people who go out looting will still find a lot of other magazines', in most servers I've ever played in at least since A15, that's usually 1 out of 10 people. Most of us either stay at base, go collect a particular resource like wood or minerals, and 1 or 2 people quest, 1 or 2 might be a scavenger/looter.

This makes it sound like we'll need more people in that role now to go out and find these magazines, which may be a thing that was intended but the 'Crafting' part under the title of the game is honestly what drew my crowd into it.

And as a sort of final comment on it - *why* are we again changing the dang perks? They were *fine* before and have been fine for quite a long time  I love everything else in this update but the new system (and again, I've played this since like, early 2014) just seems the most convoluted/weird/unnecessary out of all the changes I've seen from the game over the past 9/10 years. I'm rarely the type of person to go and make an account on a game forum lol. Maybe I'm just getting old and it feels like the grocery store has rearranged its aisles again, but I'm not sure this really should have been overhauled the way it was done, if it should have been overhauled at all.  Without trying it out, I can tell you that if you'd left it the same as it was before, you'd still have gotten another 1,000 hours at least of play out of the crew and me, if not more. 

In my opinion you are overthinking the whole magazines topic. If you have 10 people looting the whole time simultaneously they will bring back hundreds of magazines to your base per day. You, as the crafter / builder / whatever, that never leaves the base, will read magazines much more frequently than a solo mode player could ever dream of simply because the amount of found magazines is multiplied by the amount of people looting. If your looters don't read the magazines themselves but bring them back to you there won't be any problems, I am sure just from what I have seen in the A21 streams yesterday.

The big thing is that most of us just like to build / mine / harvest . 1 out of 10 people maybe loot, the rest are mining iron, coal, lead, others are working the forges and making forged iron or steel to upgrade the walls, others are making bullets and sorting out the sorting box that looters drop their inventories into after they come back from a long run. 90% of us are playing to just build stuff, and fight off the big hordes that come on the blood moons. The quests, the missions, etc. all that stuff is done by literally less than 2 or 3 people for 12-15-20 humans all online at once. 

Most of us play this for the *Crafting* part of the title, and we were able to stay mostly around our little area and play. 

It was fine, that didn't need to be 'fixed', we're happy just trying to stay alive long enough to reach gamestage level 300, we've done it off and on for years like that. We had enough of a forced need to loot with brass as it was. Now we have this as well.

 

[Neminsis]

If you have 10 people looting the whole time simultaneously

If you have less than that though...Not so much.

2 players, it doesn't work very well.
3 players, it might work better because of the increased inventory of the 2 looters.
4+ players it would definitely work if the base was actually near enough building/mining resources and you planned on building something gigantic, you still wouldn't keep up in levels with the looters after a point.

 

[katarynna]

Archer, another thing you are not considering is that your looters don't need to read ANY magazines.

ALL that the magazines affect is crafting quality. You can have all of the other up to 30 people feed magazines to the one builder/crafter that is on most often until he finishes a category, then start a second crafter on magazines.

If you want to speed rush one particular item... say workstations... you could also have your looters sacrifice 1 point each into the perk related to workstations so that they will get more of those magazines. Or have each looter put one point into one assigned specific perk so that looter A finds more workstation mags and looter B finds more cooking magazines, etc.

If you are concerned about weapons specifically, have them prioritize questing at locations that have a high rate of shotgun messiah crates. If you are concerned about tools specifically, focus working stiff crate locations.

Since you say most of your group are stay-at-home builder types, you could go together once per day to do a t1 quest as a group. It will take 2 hours max in game time in a large group, you never need to move up to t2 or higher quests to keep it quick and easy, and you often get magazines offered as a reward.

Those are just some of the things that came immediately to mind. I am sure there are many others.

Also, all the perk points your builder/crafters used to use to get recipes can now be spent on other things to improve yourselves.

If you are creative and positive, you almost definitely won't have problems. And if you do, provide feedback in a constructive manner. Note what methods your group used to try to make the system work and how it failed you. This is the first implementation of this system. Feedback based on actual gameplay by people who tried to work with the system but couldn't get a successful outcome will be invaluable for future balancing passes.

 

[PoloPoPo]

90% of us are playing to just build stuff, and fight off the big hordes that come on the blood moons. The quests, the missions, etc. all that stuff is done by literally less than 2 or 3 people for 12-15-20 humans all online at once. 

Just play A21 and see how it turns out

Maybe your group has to tweak things a little bit but that should be expected when participating in an Alpha. If you can't find more people being happy with looting and exploring the map you guys could do burried supply quests to get the magazines as quest rewards from time to time. Or buy more magazines. Or just be happy with slower progression because who cares?

If A21 is not for your group (which I doubt) you could always go back to A20 and play another 1000 hours there.

[...] you still wouldn't keep up in levels with the looters after a point.

So what? Who says players that stay at a single spot all the time on a huge open world map should keep up with levels of players that explore the map, loot and kill thousands of zombies? If I was a builder I'd be happy to craft and build and certainly wouldn't be bothered with my team mates' levels.

 

[Neminsis]

Archer, another thing you are not considering is that your looters don't need to read ANY magazines.

No, but they do have to carry them in the same slots as other resources and at the same encumbrance as those other resources...and that's where the problem lies.