PC General FPS Habit

[Riamus]

Of note, this is actually how you are trained in real life too.  Not after one shot of course but I was trained that you count your shots and reload early keeping your half spent magazines in a different pocked than your fresh ones.  You absolutely never want to be out of rounds at the moment you need to fire.

Yeah, it's bad enough in the game when you hear *click* instead of *bang* when being attacked.  In real life, that may be the last thing you hear.

 

[bobrpggamer]

It is a good habit to have.  If you are not engaging a zed at the time, there is just zero reason not to reload.  You have to be a bit more economical about it with the M60 because of the long reload time but anything else should be reloaded constantly.

Of note, this is actually how you are trained in real life too.  Not after one shot of course but I was trained that you count your shots and reload early keeping your half spent magazines in a different pocked than your fresh ones.  You absolutely never want to be out of rounds at the moment you need to fire.

Have you ever added bullets to your clip instead? This would take some time if you have say a box of 7.62 or 5.56 and you added a bullet on top of bullet into your clip, that would be the most economical way but would take a lot of time. That is why revolvers and double barrel shotguns may not be worth using in a close firefight. A bolt action rifle in a close fight would be worse than any of them. Probably why you get a pistol along with your rifle in most loadouts in a lot of games.

 

[Ananais]

Have you ever added bullets to your clip instead? This would take some time if you have say a box of 7.62 or 5.56 and you added a bullet on top of bullet into your clip, that would be the most economical way but would take a lot of time. That is why revolvers and double barrel shotguns may not be worth using in a close firefight. A bolt action rifle in a close fight would be worse than any of them. Probably why you get a pistol along with your rifle in most loadouts in a lot of games.

You know that sounds like it could be an interesting way to play, I wonder if it could be done in a mod..

 

[FA_Q2]

Have you ever added bullets to your clip instead? This would take some time if you have say a box of 7.62 or 5.56 and you added a bullet on top of bullet into your clip, that would be the most economical way but would take a lot of time. That is why revolvers and double barrel shotguns may not be worth using in a close firefight. A bolt action rifle in a close fight would be worse than any of them. Probably why you get a pistol along with your rifle in most loadouts in a lot of games.

?

We are talking about in the field, you do not carry boxes of ammo in the field.  Any ammo you bring into the field will be in a mag.  I do not understand the question.

 

[bobrpggamer]

?

We are talking about in the field, you do not carry boxes of ammo in the field.  Any ammo you bring into the field will be in a mag.  I do not understand the question.

Probably seen it in movies. I guess that maybe the magazines are created that way at an ammo dump or whatever, as I doubt that they are made on a assembly line. But you did answered my question in that it does not happen that way and that the clips are all you take in the field, which does make sense of course. If I did not see it in TV or movies I would not have even thought of it.

 

[theFlu]

Probably seen it in movies. I guess that maybe the magazines are created that way at an ammo dump or whatever...

Likely depends on the army as well. Things might be a tad different for NATO "operations" and the Ukrainian "fighting for your life on your own turf" crowds.

As far as this thread goes, refilling a mag yourself is a whole lot more likely than throwing away a half spent mag, just because you pressed the reload button..

And we're talking about an apocalypse game, ammo doesn't come in mags from assembly, someone has to put it in. You're the only one around..

For a game mechanic, refilling mags could be a thing, but it would be quite.. boring. For a game to manage to keep it interesting, you'd have to have really structured encounters to force a specific pacing - so you'd have to do it "in combat". Decide when to etc.

 

[Riamus]

That's a good point that it may vary depending on where you are and what you're doing.  Still, you're going to be much better off if you take the time to fill your spare mags before you go out to fight than if you're trying to fill them while in the middle of a fight.  Far easier to carry around X number of spare mags and swap them than to carry around a ton of loose ammo and fill the mags in the field.  I'm not sure how many people know the weight of ammo but it's heavy.  And loose ammo isn't easy to hang onto, even in a box, if you're running around.  Mags can be carried far more easily and are far faster to swap.  And unless you're caught unexpectedly and unprepared, you can usually make time to fill the mags before the fight or at certain lulls in the fight.  Games that make you fill the mag in the middle of fighting are actually less realistic, imo.  Now, filling a shotgun or bolt action rifle is going to require manually putting the ammo into the gun but that's why those aren't generally used for combat in modern days or are used as a secondary weapon when there is time to do that.  A bandolier only hold so much ammo, after all.

 

[bobrpggamer]

Ukrainian "fighting for your life on your own turf"

Everyone in the free world (other than you know who) want them to win their country back.

Well the double magazine in the image could be a mod or just crafting it with duct tape early on as its realistic. I think that extending the capacity of your weapons in the game with the weapon mod is a bit ridiculous with some weapons, as you would have to alter the magazine in some way and this would not be something you could do realistically. I always add the mod anyway of course but the double magazine in the photo with some duct tape could work in the Tactical Rifle and AK47. I do not know if the M60 in game is supposed to be belt fed or not but the drum magazine mod in game could work in the M60,  just like the M249 which I think could carry 200 rounds but could be altered easier than a standard magazine based weapon.

This could in game take less time than a reload but would only work as a capacity of twice the ammo as the magazine and would not take any more time than a reload, but only in a realistic mod I think it would be useful or just using duct tape early on as a crafting option.

One way of doing it, but in a very organized army this may not even be allowed. I believe I have seen this in the 1962 WWII TV show Combat!

 

[FA_Q2]

Probably seen it in movies. I guess that maybe the magazines are created that way at an ammo dump or whatever, as I doubt that they are made on a assembly line. But you did answered my question in that it does not happen that way and that the clips are all you take in the field, which does make sense of course. If I did not see it in TV or movies I would not have even thought of it.

I do not think you are using those terms correctly.

You do not take clips into the field, at least not for decades.  I am sure there are some weapons still in use that take clips but generally magazines are just better.  You take full mags.  You do fill them yourself before going into the field but once in the field you got what you got.  They are really easy to fill and certainly do not 'come that way' but when you are actually engaged you are not going to take the time to stop and focus on anything that is not combat.

A simple example here would be room clearing.  If you have to clear out multiple rooms you are going to form up outside the room, breach in one action with your team and if you expend any ammo you will likely reload before breaching the next set of rooms.  There is no reason to go into a situation like that without doing so.  You do not toss a half mag of course, you just store it in a different location and fall back on those if necessary.

 

[bobrpggamer]

I do not think you are using those terms correctly.

You do not take clips into the field, at least not for decades.  I am sure there are some weapons still in use that take clips but generally magazines are just better.  You take full mags.  You do fill them yourself before going into the field but once in the field you got what you got.  They are really easy to fill and certainly do not 'come that way' but when you are actually engaged you are not going to take the time to stop and focus on anything that is not combat.

A simple example here would be room clearing.  If you have to clear out multiple rooms you are going to form up outside the room, breach in one action with your team and if you expend any ammo you will likely reload before breaching the next set of rooms.  There is no reason to go into a situation like that without doing so.  You do not toss a half mag of course, you just store it in a different location and fall back on those if necessary.

I am using clip instead of magazine because I always thought they were basically the same. With a clip you drop the empty clip and put in another for a pistol and in an assault weapon you drop the empty magazine and inset another magazine, in the same way, so I did not think to say clips for pistols and magazines for assault rifles.

OK I just did as google search and I see the difference.

 

[Riamus]

Everyone in the free world (other than you know who) want them to win their country back.

Well the double magazine in the image could be a mod or just crafting it with duct tape early on as its realistic. I think that extending the capacity of your weapons in the game with the weapon mod is a bit ridiculous with some weapons, as you would have to alter the magazine in some way and this would not be something you could do realistically. I always add the mod anyway of course but the double magazine in the photo with some duct tape could work in the Tactical Rifle and AK47. I do not know if the M60 in game is supposed to be belt fed or not but the drum magazine mod in game could work in the M60,  just like the M249 which I think could carry 200 rounds but could be altered easier than a standard magazine based weapon.

This could in game take less time than a reload but would only work as a capacity of twice the ammo as the magazine and would not take any more time than a reload, but only in a realistic mod I think it would be useful or just using duct tape early on as a crafting option.

One way of doing it, but in a very organized army this may not even be allowed. I believe I have seen this in the 1962 WWII TV show Combat!

View attachment 27968

Two mags taped together like this are done this way to make it very easy to swap mags quickly as the mag you're removing and the mag you're adding are attached and so you only have to reach for another after expending 2 mags.  So when you run out of ammo in the first mag, you grab it, release it, flip it, insert it and done rather than having to reach down to grab a new magazine.  But it doesn't actually extend your ammo capacity before reloading.  This really only increases reload speed slightly instead of adding ammo capacity.  And unless you have multiple sets of mags taped like this, it's really just good for one time and then you're reaching for individuals unless you tape another set up between fights.

As far as realism in extended mags, this isn't that unrealistic.  Many weapons have extended mags available for them and drum mags are a thing for certain weapons as well.  Maybe it's a little strange with certain weapons we have in the game - I don't really know what real life versions of these weapons do or do not have extended mag sizes - but it isn't all that unrealistic.  I don't think there's anything wrong with what we have for ammo capacity mods right now.

I will say, in terms of the rest of the conversation here, that two mags taped together would likely be used in such a way that the first mag would be run empty before reloading, or at least close to empty.  After that, it would probably be swapped out at specific points in a battle where you know you're going to need a lot of ammo and you are low enough in the mag that it just makes sense to swap before the next shootout.  Depending on what you're expecting, you might be swapping at 50% or not until 25% or some other amount and it also depends on what's going on.  If you're in the middle of a fight, you're more likely to use everything before swapping because the time to swap won't be any different if you empty the mag versus swap early.  It between fights that you're likely to swap a mag that isn't completely empty with one that is full.  So, in that, I do tend to reload at times that wouldn't be smart in a real fight.  I often find myself reloading a 44 after only 2-3 shots and sometimes have zombies coming at me as I do so.  That wouldn't be the smartest option in real life.  The game reminds me of that when I hit reload only to have a zombie start eating me before the reload completes. 

 

[bobrpggamer]

Two mags taped together like this are done this way to make it very easy to swap mags quickly as the mag you're removing and the mag you're adding are attached and so you only have to reach for another after expending 2 mags.  So when you run out of ammo in the first mag, you grab it, release it, flip it, insert it and done rather than having to reach down to grab a new magazine.  But it doesn't actually extend your ammo capacity before reloading.  This really only increases reload speed slightly instead of adding ammo capacity.  And unless you have multiple sets of mags taped like this, it's really just good for one time and then you're reaching for individuals unless you tape another set up between fights.

As far as realism in extended mags, this isn't that unrealistic.  Many weapons have extended mags available for them and drum mags are a thing for certain weapons as well.  Maybe it's a little strange with certain weapons we have in the game - I don't really know what real life versions of these weapons do or do not have extended mag sizes - but it isn't all that unrealistic.  I don't think there's anything wrong with what we have for ammo capacity mods right now.

I will say, in terms of the rest of the conversation here, that two mags taped together would likely be used in such a way that the first mag would be run empty before reloading, or at least close to empty.  After that, it would probably be swapped out at specific points in a battle where you know you're going to need a lot of ammo and you are low enough in the mag that it just makes sense to swap before the next shootout.  Depending on what you're expecting, you might be swapping at 50% or not until 25% or some other amount and it also depends on what's going on.  If you're in the middle of a fight, you're more likely to use everything before swapping because the time to swap won't be any different if you empty the mag versus swap early.  It between fights that you're likely to swap a mag that isn't completely empty with one that is full.  So, in that, I do tend to reload at times that wouldn't be smart in a real fight.  I often find myself reloading a 44 after only 2-3 shots and sometimes have zombies coming at me as I do so.  That wouldn't be the smartest option in real life.  The game reminds me of that when I hit reload only to have a zombie start eating me before the reload completes. 

The 2 taped magazines would be a bit better than swapping mags you may have in whatever pocket real combatants carry them in. Its just pull it out and put the other side in. This may take half (or possibly less) the time to add a new magazine. Also you may only have 3 extra magazines to take, so you would be taking 4 extra magazines instead because the taped magazine would be attached to your first magazine you are going to use and this would not require any extra storage space. I also imagine that any modern army such as in the US and UK among others that would not allow this as it looks a bit silly and I'm sure there would be rules you would have to abide by in these armies that are very strict in what you do, possibly even in a firefight.

I guess in game the taped magazines would only work in a realism overhaul mod that does away with vanilla weapon mods. Your right in that it would not be necessarily good in vanilla unless both magazines count as one in a loaded gun. It would make no sense seeing how if it only takes a tiny bit of time to reload your guns in game anyway and that you do not take magazines in your backpack either,  just bullets and shells.

 

[theFlu]

This may take half (or possibly less) the time to add a new magazine.

I'll have to go with a strong disagree on this one. The taped mags are a movie gimmick. If it was better to swap like that, they would come from the factory like that - just not done with electrical tape.

In an actual combat vest, you have mags right under your right hand, ready to pull out just as fast as a knife from a sheath. While reloading, you have one hand to operate the mags, the other is usually needed to hold the weapon. Rotating that taped double monstrosity one-handedly is slower than just dropping the old and pulling a new. Sure you could train to be stable and fast at it, but there's no real advantage to be gained over just training your normal.

Even if a factory would be crafting them like that, you have the bottom of the mag now being an exposed hole with your bullets showing. No resting your rifle on anything unless you want to risk getting your second mag full of dirt, or misaligning your first round. Not the biggest of deals, necessarily, but a pointless increase for your jamming risks.

 

[Riamus]

The 2 taped magazines would be a bit better than swapping mags you may have in whatever pocket real combatants carry them in. Its just pull it out and put the other side in. This may take half (or possibly less) the time to add a new magazine. Also you may only have 3 extra magazines to take, so you would be taking 4 extra magazines instead because the taped magazine would be attached to your first magazine you are going to use and this would not require any extra storage space. I also imagine that any modern army such as in the US and UK among others that would not allow this as it looks a bit silly and I'm sure there would be rules you would have to abide by in these armies that are very strict in what you do, possibly even in a firefight.

I guess in game the taped magazines would only work in a realism overhaul mod that does away with vanilla weapon mods. Your right in that it would not be necessarily good in vanilla unless both magazines count as one in a loaded gun. It would make no sense seeing how if it only takes a tiny bit of time to reload your guns in game anyway and that you do not take magazines in your backpack either,  just bullets and shells.

That's basically what I said that you quoted. 

I'll have to go with a strong disagree on this one. The taped mags are a movie gimmick. If it was better to swap like that, they would come from the factory like that - just not done with electrical tape.

In an actual combat vest, you have mags right under your right hand, ready to pull out just as fast as a knife from a sheath. While reloading, you have one hand to operate the mags, the other is usually needed to hold the weapon. Rotating that taped double monstrosity one-handedly is slower than just dropping the old and pulling a new. Sure you could train to be stable and fast at it, but there's no real advantage to be gained over just training your normal.

Even if a factory would be crafting them like that, you have the bottom of the mag now being an exposed hole with your bullets showing. No resting your rifle on anything unless you want to risk getting your second mag full of dirt, or misaligning your first round. Not the biggest of deals, necessarily, but a pointless increase for your jamming risks.

This is a good point.  I was thinking of how it shows in movies as I have never been in combat and didn't think of the open mag pointing down issue or potential difficulty flipping a mag over versus just grabbing one.  I don't think you'd be dropping your mag to the ground, though.  Especially when not entirely empty.  It would likely end up either on another side of the combat vest to avoid mistakenly grabbing it or in a bag or something as you may want it later.  But even so, it isn't likely that time consuming to do that.

 

[theFlu]

I don't think you'd be dropping your mag to the ground, though.  Especially when not entirely empty.

Well, you don't want to. But if time is of essence (the whole reason for the taped stuff), you should. And for clearing a jam, you can't trust the mag that the jam happened with, it's trash until you can check it.

And since you won't Want to, you want to train To do so. Just so you don't find yourself looking for a spot to put the spare while getting shot at with your weapon inoperable. I haven't had that much weapons training, but that is one of the drills we repeat.. dispose of the old mag as fast as you can to get in the next one. Ready your weapon, secure the situation, then start considering how far down the priority list your old mag is.

Ye it felt bad tossing the flimsy pieces of plastic all over the place, but it just makes sense

 

[bobrpggamer]

I also have no training in firearms, but would love to, ever since playing Jagged Alliance 2 I have been a gun nut.

I don't know what movie it was, but there was a movie where a kid was being held hostage and without any training with firearms he used his endless FPS gaming to be able to use the firearms enough to get himself free of the hostage takers. He may have even learned to take cover with games like Call of Duty and used some tactical maneuvers in Counterstrike.

It was pretty funny that his dad thought playing those games was a complete waste of time until he walked out of the place he was being held hostage with no help whatsoever.

 

[Riamus]

I also have no training in firearms, but would love to, ever since playing Jagged Alliance 2 I have been a gun nut.

I don't know what movie it was, but there was a movie where a kid was being held hostage and without any training with firearms he used his endless FPS gaming to be able to use the firearms enough to get himself free of the hostage takers. He may have even learned to take cover with games like Call of Duty and used some tactical maneuvers in Counterstrike.

It was pretty funny that his dad thought playing those games was a complete waste of time until he walked out of the place he was being held hostage with no help whatsoever.

That might make a good movie but someone would need extreme luck to do that in real life.  Anyone can shoot a gun.  That part is easy.  Hitting what you are aiming at if it isn't point blank isn't.  And anyone who hasn't killed someone before is likely going to have a very hard time actually doing it and there is a good chance the shock of doing it if they managed it would cause them to not be able to do much for a bit after besides standing in shock staring at the body or vomiting or whatever.  Especially for a kid.  Part of weapons training anywhere where you might need to shoot someone such as police or military training is teaching you how to handle actually shooting someone.  Even then, there tend to be psychological evaluations and such after you shoot or kill someone because it is traumatizing even with training.

I've only ever fired hunting rifles but even with them, the actual experience is far different from what you get in a game.  I'm not saying a game might not give you a general idea of how to aim or how to use cover but at the same time, I think most people can figure out that you point a gun and shoot or that if someone is shooting at you, you try to hide behind cover.  But a game isn't going to give you real experience that is going to help you against anyone who has real experience.  Maybe if the kidnapper had no experience whatsoever with weapons or fighting, then they'd be relatively evenly matched but it still is far-fetched.

 

[bobrpggamer]

've only ever fired hunting rifles but even with them, the actual experience is far different from what you get in a game.  I'm not saying a game might not give you a general idea of how to aim or how to use cover but at the same time, I think most people can figure out that you point a gun and shoot or that if someone is shooting at you, you try to hide behind cover.  But a game isn't going to give you real experience that is going to help you against anyone who has real experience.  Maybe if the kidnapper had no experience whatsoever with weapons or fighting, then they'd be relatively evenly matched but it still is far-fetched.

Well it might help. The movie I believe is a comedy and not too be taken too seriously. I looked up key words in google but I cannot find the movie or TV show that had this scene in it.

I have a decent knowledge of the different types of guns by playing a lot of FPS games but I agree with you in that it still takes training to know how to clean them, fire at targets, fire at moving targets and so on. There was an episode in The Walking Dead where Shane was training Andrea to use a pistol at a moving target and she was not doing so well, the episode was season 2, episode 6, "Secrets".

As you can tell I have only learned about types guns and how to use them in the media and gaming. I have no real experience at all with any type of guns. I always blamed my father, who was a WWII veteran in the Pacific Theater and was a sharpshooter and BAR gunner in not teaching me how to use at least a pistol or hunting rifle. He did not even allow me to use BB Gun, I remember that when I was 20 or so my dad let me use the BB Gun and I made a target that looked like a person and my dad took the BB gun away. I guess that making a target that was not a bulls eye and instead cutting out a target out of cardboard that looked like a person was a little disturbing to my dad and I guess I could see that today but as a young man I did not think it was that bad.

 

[Riamus]

Well it might help. The movie I believe is a comedy and not too be taken too seriously. I looked up key words in google but I cannot find the movie or TV show that had this scene in it.

If I could I would have a lot of guns in a house that had some land (as this day and age it would be a good Idea) and get trained by a veteran or gun expert and learn how to use them. I have a decent knowledge of the different types of guns by playing a lot of FPS games but I agree with you in that it still takes training to know how to clean them, fire at targets, fire at moving targets and so on. There was an episode in The Walking Dead where Shane was training Andrea to use guns at a moving target and she was not doing so well. The episode was season 2, episode 6, "Secrets".

Just keep in mind that most of what you see in movies and TV shows relating to gun use is adjusted to make it more exciting and isn't necessarily accurate.  And games even more so.  A lot of things you see just wouldn't be done by someone with knowledge of weapons or would be done in different ways.  Think of it like trying to fly a plane after playing a bunch of games where you fly planes around.  With the *possible* exception of a very realistic flight sim that is designed to work exactly like a real plane, you flying around in planes in a video game might give you a general idea of how planes work but wouldn't make you very good at actually flying (the landing and takeoff are the parts that are most difficult).  It is the same with guns.  You might have a general idea of how to use them but that doesn't make you good at using a real one.

And, like I said, actually trying to shoot or kill someone if you're not trained to do so is not something most people can do, even to save their life without a lot of time to work past the fears that will come up.  Even in a life and death situation, most people are going to freeze up and not be able to pull the trigger and either get shot themselves or have the gun taken from them.  This is mainly because people just don't naturally want to kill others.  At least, not unless there is some psychological disorder that makes them willing to do so.  It takes training to get past that for most people.  There are certainly many people who wouldn't care about killing others but they typically have been taught that they should (like in gangs) or trained to do so (like military or police) or they are psychologically unstable.  Of course, even if someone couldn't do it to save their own life, they might not have the same trouble if it was to save their child or someone else they care about.  That changes things.  Even so, they'll likely be traumatized by it.

 

[bobrpggamer]

And, like I said, actually trying to shoot or kill someone if you're not trained to do so is not something most people can do, even to save their life without a lot of time to work past the fears that will come up.  Even in a life and death situation, most people are going to freeze up and not be able to pull the trigger and either get shot themselves or have the gun taken from them.  This is mainly because people just don't naturally want to kill others.  At least, not unless there is some psychological disorder that makes them willing to do so.  It takes training to get past that for most people.  There are certainly many people who wouldn't care about killing others but they typically have been taught that they should (like in gangs) or trained to do so (like military or police) or they are psychologically unstable.  Of course, even if someone couldn't do it to save their own life, they might not have the same trouble if it was to save their child or someone else they care about.  That changes things.  Even so, they'll likely be traumatized by it.

Well I hate to sound like a psycho but I know I could do it if it was necessary. The reason I have never bought a gun to use as defense in my home or apartment is that I am too psychologically unstable and might shoot a neighbor that is really screwing with me. The only way I would get guns is if I had a lot of land to protect, but in a general suburban type house I could not be trusted with it.

I asked my dad to loan me his .45 service pistol back around 1990 and he knew at that time I was psychotic and paranoid so he did not give it too me. I look back on that and can see how I was in a a dark time and having a gun would be dangerous. I cannot go into detail what I was thinking back then and even though it was kind of funny now I do still remember what a bad place I was in back then.

I have to keep my love for guns in FPS's and tactical strategy games like Jagged Alliance or X-Com Type games. Still I sure would like to try out that Italian Benelli M4 semi auto shotgun in you can use in Counterstrike Source.