PC Glass Jars Question, A21

[FA_Q2]

This was one of the changes that I did not like when it was announced as it really messed with a lot of things that work just fine.  However, after playing subnautica I have a new appreciation for the idea of normalizing how resources and items work.  It was a glaring hole in that game and made it feel amateurish as it was all over the place.

It makes sense that they would be normalizing the way it works across the various resources here.

 

[Vintorez]

I'm not convinced it's going to be received well even after players actually try it, having the jars just disappear and not be able to be used to fill up is the kind of thing that will just pull players out of the experience. Every time they go to drink it's just going to be like "Oh here's that thing the developers are making me do" rather than just being immersed in the survival aspect. In real life I can fill a jar or cup or whatever and boil it to make it drinkable, having the game literally bend reality to make that impossible won't feel good even if it functionally still works. 

IMO there are more simple, believable ways to achieve the dev's goals;

Make a glassblowing pipe required to craft jars and make it as rare/expensive as desired, like on par with a crucible. Now a forge + sand no longer equals infinite jars by day 3. Making the jars take longer to craft also would make bulk crafting take more commitment.

Have Tin Cans of water not stack anymore. Can't seal them, can't transport them efficiently. Logical and makes a player have to decide between inventory space or having water for travel without hindering them when rehydrating at base. Gives some player choice in how they want to manage their hydration in the early game.

Make most looted water be in tin cans (for murky) or in cracked jars (for pure) with cracked jars being lost when used, hydrating slightly less, and with a chance to cause a bit of damage. Intact jars could be somewhat rare loot that would be quite valuable for players who have yet to acquire a glassblowing pipe, slowly weaning off the need for inefficient cans of water.

I'm willing to give the new system a fair shake but I can't imagine it not feeling jarring (ha) whenever I need to manage my thirst meter and have to do so in these new somewhat roundabout ways.

 

[Ananais]

I have been holding off on forming an opinion until I have a play through on a21 vanilla, but honestly I cannot remember the last time I actually needed jars for survival, even with lower loot percentages and no respawn.

Now when I get to the point of mass producing glue, that could potentially call for a bit of modding, but we will see how it plays first!

 

[RipClaw]

Every time they go to drink it's just going to be like "Oh here's that thing the developers are making me do" rather than just being immersed in the survival aspect.

Actually, they only have to do one thing to get the immersion right. The character just has to throw the glass over his shoulder after drinking and you have to hear that the glass breaks.

 

[meganoth]

I'm not convinced it's going to be received well even after players actually try it, having the jars just disappear and not be able to be used to fill up is the kind of thing that will just pull players out of the experience. Every time they go to drink it's just going to be like "Oh here's that thing the developers are making me do" rather than just being immersed in the survival aspect. In real life I can fill a jar or cup or whatever and boil it to make it drinkable, having the game literally bend reality to make that impossible won't feel good even if it functionally still works. 

IMO there are more simple, believable ways to achieve the dev's goals;

Make a glassblowing pipe required to craft jars and make it as rare/expensive as desired, like on par with a crucible. Now a forge + sand no longer equals infinite jars by day 3. Making the jars take longer to craft also would make bulk crafting take more commitment.

Just try to think a few minutes about ways to circumvent your own scheme (and your others). Maybe you will find holes large enough for a truck to drive through.

Have Tin Cans of water not stack anymore. Can't seal them, can't transport them efficiently. Logical and makes a player have to decide between inventory space or having water for travel without hindering them when rehydrating at base. Gives some player choice in how they want to manage their hydration in the early game.

Make most looted water be in tin cans (for murky) or in cracked jars (for pure) with cracked jars being lost when used, hydrating slightly less, and with a chance to cause a bit of damage. Intact jars could be somewhat rare loot that would be quite valuable for players who have yet to acquire a glassblowing pipe, slowly weaning off the need for inefficient cans of water.

I'm willing to give the new system a fair shake but I can't imagine it not feeling jarring (ha) whenever I need to manage my thirst meter and have to do so in these new somewhat roundabout ways.

You have been using gas cans and acid bottles in very similar systems for years now without noticing anything jarring I would guess.

 

[Crypted]

Actually, they only have to do one thing to get the immersion right. The character just has to throw the glass over his shoulder after drinking and you have to hear that the glass breaks.

This is a lot better than the glass jar just going poof or eating the glass, just throwing it on the ground. But maybe the throwing part would take some time with each jar of water you drink from and the glass breaking noise might get annoying. So it's best to wait until the 7DTD community gets there hands on Alpha 21 to say anymore. 

 

[Roland]

I'm not convinced it's going to be received well even after players actually try it, having the jars just disappear and not be able to be used to fill up is the kind of thing that will just pull players out of the experience.

The initial WTF moment is something that I worry about. When played for the first time after the change was made I had no idea that it had happened. I was confused and a bit lost on how I was supposed to get enough water. At that time you could not drink from a water source yet either. So I asked someone what happened and found out about the change. I went back to the game and started working towards building my dew collector and after about an hour of playing never thought about jars again.

It will be a WTF first moment-- especially for those who don't follow the development announcements and so still have no idea about the change. There will be lots of posts from frustrated people asking how the heck they are supposed to get enough water. But I do have absolute confidence that within an hour of playing once understanding the change, people really won't think about it. The jars still exist but only in inventory to show units of liquid. Our imaginations fill in the rest. I assume there are empty jars but I just don't directly deal with them. They are glossed over. Never do I stop to agonize about a universe in which empty jars don't exist.

So...I think it will be a very interesting first couple of weeks on the forum with lots of posts by people who got used to it and absolutely love the water survival progression over the nonexistent water survival progression of before. There will also likely be every day someone new posting asking how to keep from always being thirsty and how to get water. There will be posts from those who didn't get past the adaptation process and decided right away they hate it and refuse to play it or try to get used to it. Some will call it innovative and unique and a fresh feeling compared to other survival titles they've played. Some will call it tedious and grindy and too long of a process to reach water abundance. Some will mod it back to how it was before ASAP.

This stuff is what makes early access so interesting to experience-- especially with a studio that experiments and iterates using public builds rather than behind closed doors. I'm pretty confident that in the end the vast majority will accept the change simply because the early game is more fun with it and just like everything else, crafting the solution to a problem is rewarding and we've already seen that people can and will bridge that abstraction gap with acid containers, gas cans, and stew bowls

 

[BFT2020]

I’ve enjoyed A20 without glass jars.

 

[Jugginator]

I was confused and a bit lost on how I was supposed to get enough water

This is a major spoiler for A21 but I feel as if people should know this about the change: 

Spoiler

You can use an iron or steel shovel to scoop water out of cooking pot land mines with a point in Demolitions Expert

That aside (no don't look at me like that, it's not a joke ), it may feel weird to veterans at first but it adds a ton of dynamic to gameplay and brings back a bit of survival challenge without being annoying; you will discover where to go for sources of murky water, be excited to loot things like coffee again, and if you need to supplement the dew collectors aren't bad to make. By the end game, you can still mass-produce things like glue, you will just need to prepare a bit and it won't be unlimited like it used to be.

 

[Crypted]

I'm completely fine with the survival aspect of the game getting changed to make it fit survival more (that makes sense). I really like the idea of the dew collector but what I don't understand is the glass jars part to it. 

Suggestions to think of and these are just ideas:

• Throwing the glass jar on the ground when you finish drinking the water like RipClaw said (so it makes sense instead of the glass jar going poof)
  
• Make it to where you can't craft glass jars but can find them and fill them up (which could help with progression and slow down the amount of jars you get)
  
• Limiting the amount of jars you can find in loot or at the trader
  

     It would be cool if the dew collector filled up with water when it rained.

 

[Jugginator]

• Make it to where you can't craft glass jars but can find them and fill them up (which could help with progression and slow down the amount of jars you get)
  
• Limiting the amount of jars you can find in loot or at the trader
  

These two points were talked about/tried before the change. Back in the days of A16 and earlier, this could be done; but this just isn't feasible with the mass amount of POIs/cities/towns we have now. Unless a massive overhaul of removing jarred drinks/empty jar sources (e.g. only X amount of "that makes sense to have drink/jar loot in there" allowed per POI) and reworking the loot tables happens, it just won't prevent anyone from having hundreds of jars, which defeats any sort of survival. Even IF that was done, a 5% or lower chance is still a lot, when considering how many times you can roll to get that loot. It's feasible this way. 

 

[Roland]

Throwing the glass jar on the ground when you finish drinking the water like RipClaw said (so it makes sense instead of the glass jar going poof)

These types of animations are novel the first time or two but after 100s of drinks you would be going postal in rl after having to watch another toss the glass and listen for the shattering sequence. And that's just because you're pretty chill. Others would be causing mayhem after just the 5th time....

 

[Crypted]

These types of animations are novel the first time or two but after 100s of drinks you would be going postal in rl after having to watch another toss the glass and listen for the shattering sequence. And that's just because you're a chill dude. Others would be causing mayhem after just the 5th time....

I'm just trying to see if there are any other alternatives, but if the dew collector could possibly fill up with water when it rained then I'll change my mind and say that this glass jar change is alright and that I'm all for it (when the weather gets fixed because it's on the roadmap to gold and beyond). And it doesn't seem to rain as much as what it should. 

 

[Vaeliorin]

These types of animations are novel the first time or two but after 100s of drinks you would be going postal in rl after having to watch another toss the glass and listen for the shattering sequence. And that's just because you're pretty chill. Others would be causing mayhem after just the 5th time....

Obviously, the solution to this is to license a clip from Lonely Island's "Threw It On The Ground" and have that play every time you drink from a jar.

I think it would be okay if you could pipe dew collectors together and collect from a single source, but harvesting from dozens of dew collectors every day is going to get tedious really quick (I go through a lot of water and play on 2 hour days, so I'll need a lot of dew collectors, since they're based on days not time, unless that's been changed.)

 

[zztong]

I went back to the game and started working towards building my dew collector and after about an hour of playing never thought about jars again.

So...I think it will be a very interesting first couple of weeks on the forum with lots of posts by people who got used to it and absolutely love the water survival progression over the nonexistent water survival progression of before.

We've debated water a lot and I do admit to skepticism. I'm looking forward to trying the new approach. I hope I can keep an open mind.

I do think it is unfair to say water progression before was non-existent compared to a new system that only takes an hour to overcome. Neither approach is complicated, but the nature of the player investment is different. With the old approach you had an investment of time and materials every time you needed water. With the new approach a dew collector takes care of production automatically. The change is instead of making water, you make dew collectors.

I do think there could be more to water survival. But if the new approach is the most popular, then so be it.

This stuff is what makes early access so interesting to experience-- especially with a studio that experiments and iterates using public builds rather than behind closed doors.

I agree with this whole-heartedly.

 

[Crypted]

I'll see how everything is in 7DTD when the new console version gets released because I only have a console so I missed out a lot with 7DTD. 

 

[Riamus]

I'm not convinced it's going to be received well even after players actually try it, having the jars just disappear and not be able to be used to fill up is the kind of thing that will just pull players out of the experience. Every time they go to drink it's just going to be like "Oh here's that thing the developers are making me do" rather than just being immersed in the survival aspect.

As someone else mentioned, you already don't see leftover containers from various other things like gas and acid.  It is one of those things that if it never existed, no one would even have thought about it not being immersive.  You certainly don't see a bunch of people complaining that they don't have leftover gas cans and acid bottles whenever they use those.  Why not?  It is just as immersion breaking.  The reason is because it's simply not something you think about unless you've been getting the leftover jars and no longer get them.  For new players who never had glass jars, they aren't going to care or even think about the fact that they are missing.  The same for the cans going away.

I am not sure this change for water is really going to make any difference whatsoever.  I mean, I only very rarely after the first game or two actually use an empty glass jar for anything.  They just pile up in storage.  So removing the jars isn't going to have any real impact on my water.  The change that may impact my water is the change to the loot tables.  Granted, if they left jars and changed the loot tables, it would just mean people will craft or use empty jars more often, defeating the loot table changes.  So it makes sense in that regard.  But we will have to see what the loot actually looks like for players who do a lot of scavenging and questing.  It may not matter much at all.  I may even find that making dew collectors isn't worth the time and resources.  After all, once I can make mineral water, I never drink anything else anyhow and then dew collectors would mostly be useless except if I need water for making food and can't find enough in loot.  I have never made glue as I always find more than enough for my uses (I don't make arrows, which is a main use of it).  Of course, with having to do tons of repairs to vehicles in A21, I might need to start making some.  Though I think there's a good chance I'll mod out the vehicle damage change unless it can be adjusted in settings because losing 10-20% durability in one crash is going to quickly become annoying.  5% or less I can live with, but not more.

All in all, I think it's a convoluted way of trying to make water difficult and even in the devs' view it is only going to matter for the first few days before it is once again meaningless, so what's the point?  There are far easier ways to change water scarcity without making a large dew collector farm, but we'll see how it works.  I honestly don't think I'll even notice it after an hour or two of playing.  Which makes me think it was just a waste of dev time to implement something that will have so little real impact. But we will just have to see.

I'm just trying to see if there are any other alternatives, but if the dew collector could possibly fill up with water when it rained then I'll change my mind and say that this glass jar change is alright and that I'm all for it (when the weather gets fixed because it's on the roadmap to gold and beyond). And it doesn't seem to rain as much as what it should. 

Unfortunately, rain isn't an option for a few reasons.  One, chunks that aren't loaded can't have rain so if you're not close to your base, it would never fill up.  And two, the game doesn't actually track rain anywhere other than whether or not you as a player is wet, so it isn't currently an option.  Doesn't mean they can't do something to get it to work, but they chose dew collectors as a workaround for that.

 

[RipClaw]

I am not sure this change for water is really going to make any difference whatsoever.  I mean, I only very rarely after the first game or two actually use an empty glass jar for anything. 

It always depends on the playstyle and also on the constraints you impose on yourself.

For example, you have to take a look at JaWoodle's current Infection series. He never actually made jars and always threw away the empty jars. In the current series he plays with 50% loot and a permanent infection so that he has to craft antibiotics to stay alive. This has changed his game so much that he has started collecting jars and even crafting jars.

I'm someone who likes to be self sufficient and digging through all the garbage bags for a few units of glue or tape is not my style. So crafting jar is part of my play style regardless if I play with arrows or not. In A21 I will probably have about 9-10 dew collectors on the roof for my glue production.

 

[Riamus]

It always depends on the playstyle and also on the constraints you impose on yourself.

For example, you have to take a look at JaWoodle's current Infection series. He never actually made jars and always threw away the empty jars. In the current series he plays with 50% loot and a permanent infection so that he has to craft antibiotics to stay alive. This has changed his game so much that he has started collecting jars and even crafting jars.

I'm someone who likes to be self sufficient and digging through all the garbage bags for a few units of glue or tape is not my style. So crafting jar is part of my play style regardless if I play with arrows or not. In A21 I will probably have about 9-10 dew collectors on the roof for my glue production.

There are definitely playstyles that would have more need.  I wasn't meaning no one would see a difference.  I only meant that for me that difference might not be noticeable.  I rarely need glue for anything - or duct tape for that matter.  Sometimes in the beginning I'll need to make a few repair kits if I've been unlucky finding them, but that isn't common.  I do play at 100% loot, but for me there isn't any additional enjoyment over having to work twice as hard to get stuff.  I'm there to kill zombies and build some interesting bases, not to grind for stuff.  But that's just how I play and I know others play differently.

 

[Vintorez]

Just try to think a few minutes about ways to circumvent your own scheme (and your others). Maybe you will find holes large enough for a truck to drive through.

You have been using gas cans and acid bottles in very similar systems for years now without noticing anything jarring I would guess.

If there were open body pools, rivers, and lakes of crude oil, then I probably would question why the gas cans only exist when convenient, preventing me from gathering it to refine.

It's not a strictly realism thing per se, it's a matter of thinking "There is the thing that I need (water) and I know that dirty water, which comes in jars, can be purified via boiling, but the only thing preventing me from doing so freely are these damn Schrödinger's Jars"

And I'm sure my ideas could be circumvented, long craft times are easily worked around by having multiple crafting stations and I've had my share of Day 2 crucibles, but when that happens it's just a "Neat, we got real lucky this playthough" moment and still requires some effort to actually utilize. I also imagine the new water system can be partially circumvented if the player is willing to travel around multiple traders to buy their filters, more so if they acquire a water filter helmet mod early.

Maybe I've just played too many Blizzard games over the last few years that whenever I see devs feeling the need to explain why something is going to be fun, I immediately assume it's not going to be fun and that we're in for a bad time. And I'm sure some people are going to love the new system, what I doubt is that it's going to be a net positive on the game. It's obviously too late to change course now and as I've mentioned I'm willing to play with it, but it's hard not to be doubtful when myself and my 4 other friends who play are all sharing the same wary thoughts.