PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Jost Amman]

I really like the outfit but I think it suits a hiking outfit rather than a desert gear outfit as they call it. A different outfit should be made for the desert gear outfit. 

This was an actual AfrikaCorps outfit (Germany):

Spoiler

 

[RipClaw]

I'm fine with the grid-based UI as long as it matches/fits the game with zombies (post-apocalyptic world). I was thinking of a blood related UI design because of the 7DTD logo but that's just an idea not that I would want it to happen. 

I actually like the UI concept. Reminds me of the Undead Legacy UI. But that's just me.

No matter what the final UI looks like, I think the two most important points are customizability to serve both the minimalists and players who want a lot of information displayed, and good readability.

 

[meganoth]

I mean deep down I'm fine with the zombie skins, different clothing, hairstyles and different skin tones for the zombies, I was only saying just add new zombies because I just don't feel like it will be done right. If this is done right to where the zombie skins all look completely different then I'm all for it. Also Madmole said (but I had designs for them) so does this mean new zombies are almost done but just need more work before they get added in or something else.

That is a design for example:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strichmännchen#/media/Datei:Simple_Stick_Figure.svg
 

Now I'm sure Madmole went more specific with his designs, but the thing is he can be as specific or non-specific as he wants and just leave the rest to his designers. Which practically means any new zombie is "just more work" away.

 

[meganoth]

If I'm walking down the street and I see everyone wearing the same half dozen or so outfits, it would look very weird to me.  Put them in multiple different outfits and they will start to look normal.  If they add more zombies, they need to balance them and make them unique.  Adding new zombies but having them act like existing zombies doesn't provide any benefit other than a different look and you can only make a very limited number of those that way.  I would rather see a horde coming at me where exact duplicates are uncommon than to have a few more types of zombies that will still look repetitive as you'll have only a few new ones compared to the possibility of hundreds of different looks if you used skins on existing zombies.  I'm not saying they can't also add new zombies, but you just won't get much variety by doing it only that way.  With skins, your hordes can look far more varied and less repetitive.  Your quest zombies will feel less identical and more like they were real people turned into zombies instead of a half dozen people turned into thousands of clones who were then turned into zombies.  Ideally, you'd have different clothing that is similar enough in style so you can still identify what zombie you're fighting for strategy purposes, but still different so they seem like people in just their regular clothing.  But the easier option is just to tint the existing clothing with different colors so they at least look different enough to not feel as repetitive.

For the amount of effort spent, you can get far more out of using skins than making additional unique zombies.  Even if they added 10 more unique zombies, it will still feel repetitive because you still don't have that many and when you have a bunch coming after you, there will be all kinds of duplication.  If they added multiple skins to each zombie, then you can quickly end up in the hundreds of possible looks with far less work.  If they could get a bit more modular and have a few hair styles, a few skin tones, a few colors of clothes and perhaps even a few clothing styles for each zombie, then you would have so much variety that you would hardly see exact duplicates.  You just can't get that from only adding more zombies.

I don't think different skins (i.e. color of skin+color of clothes) makes entirely new zombies. Our brain works wonders in identifying similarities. In other words two identical Marlenes with diffferent outfits will still register as largely the same person. Also randomly mixing skin colors and clothes colors often produces combinations that look weird. Or at least very unfashionable . My guess is that skin variation would work much better with nondescript featureless zombies than with the high quality recognizable zombies of this game. 

So in summary  I'd say without actually seeing that feature in the actual game we won't know what would be better, a few new zombies or a lot more skin variations.

 

[Guppycur]

You'd be wrong.  Seeing the same zombies with different skins definitely adds variation. And you stop seeing the glaring similarities.

Madmole's logic is also wrong.  Minecraft works because it's ONE zombie skin, which our brain begins to discard.  Seeing 15 zeds and 9 are alike is more distracting than seeing 15 of the same.

He is right that they have better things to do tho.

Having code change the tint of a shirt material on spawn also wouldn't add any real overhead btw.

Been there, done it, just saying. 

Fight me.

 

[Pineapple Killer]

Clearly at the start of the apocalypse when someone was bitten, the virus made them first go to Savage Country and change into their outfit, then depending on what zombie had bitten them, over time they changed appearance to all look the same. Thats the reason why the dozen or so zombies have the same look and outfits. Its just common sense! Can we stop asking for more now. It would break my "immersion" of said reason. 

But seriously, I'm just happy the game is still getting great updates because with each alpha, it feels like a new game in a way. TFP have not just thought to put the game gold and start pushing DLC's on us, they continue to work on a game where most of us already own it and they won't make anymore money from us.

Be happy with what we get. 

 

[Roland]

Also Madmole said (but I had designs for them) so does this mean new zombies are almost done but just need more work before they get added in or something else. 

It means he’s drawn some ideas on paper and has them in a binder. Rewatch the dev stream from this week and at the beginning there is a graphic that explains the process. Justin said that Madmole gives the artists a concept as a drawing and then they start modeling it and going through that whole flowchart. It’s a long flowchart. 
 

There are no zombie models that are practically done and just need to be added in. Nobody has been working on new zombies at all since they started working on bandits and player characters over a year ago. 

 

[Matt115]

After how many hours has the clone army put you and your friends off? Hundreds or even thousands? Our job isn't to infinitely entertain old customers, it's to make a great game. By the time the zombies get old you would have to have a ton of hours. Minecraft has one zombie, a skeleton and a creeper, spider a blob and a few dozen other rare spawn enemies and made billions, it hasn't hurt their sales to have just one zombie skin.

It doesn't hurt because Minecraft have stylized graphic. Like dunno - Teen mutant ninja, Superhot, plants VS zombies.  Other hand - game similiar to Minecraft have many zombie variants +- 50 while this is just one type of many enemy types. Orc must die? many diffrent looking orcs

7dtd if i good understand target more realistic graphic right? 

Which low number enemies was problem in games in SH downpour. I remember even review of RE7 complaining about low enemy variants. 

Ofc - game can have army clones in this same time have realistic graphic without problem if it's explained - Seriopus Sam - most enemies are aliens or clones, KF - literaly clones.

I know that TFP is not big company - but Techland was critized for small number of zombie variants while this is much bigger company (and many props - like this same upper halve of body almost everywhere sometimes lying each other which looks rly bad) In dead island 2 situation is much better fortunatly. 

Guys - i understand low number of variants in 2013 - but now are higher standards. So if you want make target in more realistic style of graphic - more zombie variants are neccesary. The no more room in hell 2 devs had to add low number of zombie of variants because lack of money. But after finding publisher they add much more of them which is right decisions - well people looks and wear diffrent clothes right?

 

[meganoth]

You'd be wrong.  Seeing the same zombies with different skins definitely adds variation. And you stop seeing the glaring similarities.

Madmole's logic is also wrong.  Minecraft works because it's ONE zombie skin, which our brain begins to discard.  Seeing 15 zeds and 9 are alike is more distracting than seeing 15 of the same.

He is right that they have better things to do tho.

Having code change the tint of a shirt material on spawn also wouldn't add any real overhead btw.

Been there, done it, just saying. 

Fight me.

Why should I? Actual experience from actually seeing it was just what I was demanding.

Each person is different, I look at the 15 zeds in this game as archetypes or classes (the same happens in many RPG games on PC) and I have practically zero problems with the sameness of each type. Just like I would look at the few different NPCs in minecraft as archetypes, same principle.

As such I would **probably** value a new zombie more than clothing variations on all zombies though this is just an uninformed  guess.

 

[Trankitas]

It means he’s drawn some ideas on paper and has them in a binder. Rewatch the dev stream from this week and at the beginning there is a graphic that explains the process. Justin said that Madmole gives the artists a concept as a drawing and then they start modeling it and going through that whole flowchart. It’s a long flowchart. 
 

There are no zombie models that are practically done and just need to be added in. Nobody has been working on new zombies at all since they started working on bandits and player characters over a year ago. 

I genuinely think that having some of the dangerous encounters we face being against bandits will refresh the game in the way we need, they will add all sorts of encounters and ranged fights, right now you can technically go only melee with a couple points on the skill that governs that melee weapon of your choice and get away with it...I don't think that will be the case with 5 bandits shooting their AK's at you.

Sooo... I'm in favor of having new zombies as DLC's or post gold content, although having not memorizable zombies models will certainly add some spice to the game.

 

[Matt115]

I don't think different skins (i.e. color of skin+color of clothes) makes entirely new zombies. Our brain works wonders in identifying similarities. In other words two identical Marlenes with diffferent outfits will still register as largely the same person. Also randomly mixing skin colors and clothes colors often produces combinations that look weird. Or at least very unfashionable . My guess is that skin variation would work much better with nondescript featureless zombies than with the high quality recognizable zombies of this game. 

So in summary  I'd say without actually seeing that feature in the actual game we won't know what would be better, a few new zombies or a lot more skin variations.

it could help a lot - hazmat zombies in l4d2 or even zombie workers in Dying light 1 - this same zombie just diffrent colout of uniform. About colour of skin hm.. maybe if was some zombie were more green for rot would help but depend how this would be done ( at least this good work in DL1 

You'd be wrong.  Seeing the same zombies with different skins definitely adds variation. And you stop seeing the glaring similarities.

Madmole's logic is also wrong.  Minecraft works because it's ONE zombie skin, which our brain begins to discard.  Seeing 15 zeds and 9 are alike is more distracting than seeing 15 of the same.

He is right that they have better things to do tho.

Having code change the tint of a shirt material on spawn also wouldn't add any real overhead btw.

Been there, done it, just saying. 

Fight me.

I agree about that

 

[Mumpfy]

the issue with "changing color" is that if you just go for a hue saturation change then sure, its a couple of clicks only but they end up looking weird. now if you go for a detailed re texturing of the models then you are working on each piece of clothing, skin, shoes, hair, separated. this implies a lot of work for either modders or devs.

that said modders are just getting partial stuff needed to do this properly, like the textures are already merged into one, and there is no ID maps to help you separate the parts of each texture.

In my case I can say I have spend way more time making an accurated selection mask for each bit of the texture to create my own ID maps in order to be able to replace those bits properly in substance painter, then in some cases depending on the changes you make you also have to alter the seconday maps, like normals, ao, etc.

this is great because it allows you to make a more decent variation, change properly the fabric materials, patterns, colors, not just a general hue change.

but in my case it takes several hrs just to make that ID maps selection because in some models is even quite hard to tell things appart while selecting.

sure, changing the materials is the fun part, tho counting ripping the asssets separating all maps from the RMOE texture, selecting and masking, reassambling the model you got a ton of work even before getting to re assamble the model back in unity to export.just saying that to try to get people to understand all the process involved. for either modders or devs to make what seems sometimes like a simple color change.

now... convince the pimps to share id maps and then that workflow for modders gets cut in time by less than half. lol. at least me.

and ive been working with photoshop professionally for over 20 years. so i do have some practise on it.

all that said, yeah... TFP adding more zombies variations or models would be the best outcome.

 

[Games'n'Grumble]

don't think I'm bragging, but I've made some simple models in my mod that use the same texture for everyone and randomly appear on zombies (so far it's only Zombie Bo) + 5 different colors = more or less a good variety (although they are still similar, of course). The main difficulty so far is only in setting the correct position relative to the body part.

 

[Matt115]

don't think I'm bragging, but I've made some simple models in my mod that use the same texture for everyone and randomly appear on zombies (so far it's only Zombie Bo) + 5 different colors = more or less a good variety (although they are still similar, of course). The main difficulty so far is only in setting the correct position relative to the body part.

View attachment 27721

Well looks good andrly looks like diffrent  zombies

 

[meganoth]

don't think I'm bragging, but I've made some simple models in my mod that use the same texture for everyone and randomly appear on zombies (so far it's only Zombie Bo) + 5 different colors = more or less a good variety (although they are still similar, of course). The main difficulty so far is only in setting the correct position relative to the body part.

View attachment 27721

Clothes variations look very good. Faces have lots of room for improvement 

 

[Matt115]

Clothes variations look very good. Faces have lots of room for improvement 

That's true. But if there would many variants of colours for all zombies - it would help a lot. Btw. you know how to solve faces problems in realistic way? gasmask for some of zombies , bandanas, ski googles etc. So even if you have dunno - 50 this same zombie just diffrent colour but everyone in gasmask - this would solve clone syndrome

 

[saoron666]

It means he’s drawn some ideas on paper and has them in a binder. Rewatch the dev stream from this week and at the beginning there is a graphic that explains the process. Justin said that Madmole gives the artists a concept as a drawing and then they start modeling it and going through that whole flowchart. It’s a long flowchart. 
 

There are no zombie models that are practically done and just need to be added in. Nobody has been working on new zombies at all since they started working on bandits and player characters over a year ago. 

such a shame that nobody been working on such important aspect!

the game is about zombies and only few zombies are in the game with same appearance , colors, textures etc..

over 100 new POI's but same zombies everywhere you go..how clever is that?

from  Day 1 you start the game to lets say Day 7000+ that same zombie roaming the area..

Bloodmoon or Normal day...again same zombies..

a bit diversity maybe?! 

i don't get it really, they put so much effort in other things like decors, doors, grass, etc but the one thing that we facing and dealing with in the game is a minority.

what makes a new POI interesting? exciting? eerie? The new paint on the wall and the new frame? or new zombies , foes and what you may encounter further in that POI?

T5 or T6..just multiply that same looking zombie X10 doesn't make it interesting..

I mean how many times can you get a thrill from seeing that same zombie over and over, jumping out of the closet or catching you by the toe lol

 

[Laz Man]

Something also to consider.  Some folks might be fine with different color clothes and such, but others may not.

Personally I love how each character is 100% different from each other.  Changing a shirt or color here and there may help "blur" the lines alittle bit but is a lower quality standard imo. 

Clone variants works in other games because you either can't seem them up close or the combat is so fast the player is never standing around long enough to care / notice.

If it was up to me, I would prefer the artists take the time to just make more unique zombies using the same approach as how the current HD set was made.

 

[saoron666]

That would require a clothing mask texture being made for each zombie for the tint areas or additional textures made. Either approach would push up memory use, so that would need to be evaluated too. The artists are busy working on all the previously mentioned art.

Completely different people. The various water changes were done by three different programmers, who can not do zombie art.

Then, why not get different people for the zombie and the art since it is the core of the game?! i would like to know if i go in that house or area i will face much stronger and deadlier foes than the same stripper running around the entire map. or that same dog from resident evil...

every POI needs its own foes.

every mission should have as well their own foes.

every biom should have their own foes.

i dont know how the T5 missions for nests will work but that as well will need different foes.

a Team just for zombies is a must! its like having a car manufacturing and not have a team to design new cars and models...lets sell that same car over and over for 15 years.

see how interesting it will become lol

 

[Blake_]

Something also to consider.  Some folks might be fine with different color clothes and such, but others may not.

Personally I love how each character is 100% different from each other.  Changing a shirt or color here and there may help "blur" the lines alittle bit but is a lower quality standard imo. 

Clone variants works in other games because you either can't seem them up close or the combat is so fast the player is never standing around long enough to care / notice.

If it was up to me, I would prefer the artists take the time to just make more unique zombies using the same approach as how the current HD set was made.

Well that's an unpopular opinion. I would be ok with zd variation, as long as every variation uses textures or partial textures already in the game, in order to avoid any memory increase. New clothing tints and models with the same reutilized texture would also help a lot. 

Sure, unique zds are cool. But they get old fast. And not as late as Madmole said, but 10-20 hours in you can already feel the heavy hit of repetition, as unique as they might be.

Zd with posts, barbed wires, caps, glasses, parts of player armor... all of that wouldn't generate any extra memory and would make the game way better than it is.