PC Exquisite feedback from a charismatic player

If the screenshots from the A21 diary are correct, it looks like Pipe Baton and Stun Baton will go into the robotics crafting tree together with sledge, turret, and drone. There's no T3 baton present in the screenshot.


But that is just crafting.  How effective they will be depends on any changes they make to the batons themselves along with changes to the perk associated to them via the Intelligence attribute.  They may end of tying both perks (baton and turrets) into the same one, or they may keep them separate like they are today.  It's going to be interesting to see how the perks flesh out with all the recipes removed.  Which based on the information provided so far (very little other than changes being made), these changes are something they are keeping close to the vest and we will find out after A21 drops.

 
But that is just crafting.  How effective they will be depends on any changes they make to the batons themselves along with changes to the perk associated to them via the Intelligence attribute.  They may end of tying both perks (baton and turrets) into the same one, or they may keep them separate like they are today.  It's going to be interesting to see how the perks flesh out with all the recipes removed.  Which based on the information provided so far (very little other than changes being made), these changes are something they are keeping close to the vest and we will find out after A21 drops.
No but it certainly suggests a limit on any buffing as the stun baton is necessarily limited by its tier. Any considerable boost to batons would need to introduce a T3 baton to keep the progression steady. I'd say the skill progression suggested by that screenshot implicates that the stun baton will become more of a turret support weapon than a stand-alone melee weapon.

As an aside, I see that you are mentioned in the acknowledgements for the 3/4 Izayo .45 ACP weapon pack. Did you help make those weapons balanced? You seem to enjoy a rough ride, so if you find them appropriate for a difficult playthrough I will install that mod for my next run. I would like to have a few more SMG options and the UMP is a classic. I am curious about the agility oriented playstyle after this thread.

 
No but it certainly suggests a limit on any buffing as the stun baton is necessarily limited by its tier. Any considerable boost to batons would need to introduce a T3 baton to keep the progression steady. I'd say the skill progression suggested by that screenshot implicates that the stun baton will become more of a turret support weapon than a stand-alone melee weapon.


The thing is though, the Intelligence tree can be pretty OP with 2 junk turrets that the player can deploy along with their own weapons.  The reason we might not have the T3 baton at this point is striking a balance between more melee for the Int builds vs overpowering it.

The axe was in the same situation.  It was a powerful melee weapon so people were taking that to save a spot on their toolbelt (cuts wood and cuts zombies, why bring a different melee weapon).

As an aside, I see that you are mentioned in the acknowledgements for the 3/4 Izayo .45 ACP weapon pack. Did you help make those weapons balanced? You seem to enjoy a rough ride, so if you find them appropriate for a difficult playthrough I will install that mod for my next run. I would like to have a few more SMG options and the UMP is a classic. I am curious about the agility oriented playstyle after this thread.


No, I just helped the mod creator with some coding issues and assisted in tracking down issues.  I have installed those mods, but only to assist with troubleshooting issues.  @Izayo would be a better person to ask about balancing.

 
The thing is though, the Intelligence tree can be pretty OP with 2 junk turrets that the player can deploy along with their own weapons.  The reason we might not have the T3 baton at this point is striking a balance between more melee for the Int builds vs overpowering it.

The axe was in the same situation.  It was a powerful melee weapon so people were taking that to save a spot on their toolbelt (cuts wood and cuts zombies, why bring a different melee weapon).

No, I just helped the mod creator with some coding issues and assisted in tracking down issues.  I have installed those mods, but only to assist with troubleshooting issues.  @Izayo would be a better person to ask about balancing.
what is not balance ? feel free to suggest in my threads.  

 
what is not balance ? feel free to suggest in my threads.  
Hi Izayo,

It was not an assertion, but a question. I am going to start a new run, and I was wondering if the .45 ACP weapon pack is equivalent in power to the existing vanilla weapons. I would like to add mods, and yours look great, but I also want to maintain the same challenge curve as it is.

Would you say that your .45 ACP pack contains weapons superior to the vanilla weapons?

 
I am curious about the agility oriented playstyle after this thread.


I forgot to reply to this portion of your thread earlier.

Understand that an agility style playthrough that emphases stealth play using bows and knives will be a much slower progression through POIs.  If you are the type of player that doesn't want to spend more time than necessary or maximize your output in a day, you won't find it as fun as just blasting your way through the POIs.

Stealth is not like Skryim stealth where you can max out the skill, then simply crouch in front of them in daylight and they can't see you.  There is always a chance to fail the stealth check.  So really read From the Shadow perk description and make use of the ability to have them lose interest in you after you get out of their sight vector.  There is a reason that agility build has Parkour in it  😉

 
Hi Izayo,

It was not an assertion, but a question. I am going to start a new run, and I was wondering if the .45 ACP weapon pack is equivalent in power to the existing vanilla weapons. I would like to add mods, and yours look great, but I also want to maintain the same challenge curve as it is.

Would you say that your .45 ACP pack contains weapons superior to the vanilla weapons?
I designed .45 ACP  to fit it between the 9mm and  the .44magnum   ,higher damage than 9mm  lower than the .44 but it can put in an automatic gun.

the ammo is expensive both in cost and ingredient for crafting.

I don't know about looting amout , I usually play with 33% loot and find them like 2 - 8 round / loot  (smallloot , mediumloot) and 50 rounds with tier 1,2 quest and I never found guns in loot even in the T5 chest

Don't worry about the early-game balance , if this game still allowed you to find/craft the pipe-machinegun in the first 15 min. this pack would be fine I think.

also, all the guns required workbench to craft 

 
No but it certainly suggests a limit on any buffing as the stun baton is necessarily limited by its tier. Any considerable boost to batons would need to introduce a T3 baton to keep the progression steady. I'd say the skill progression suggested by that screenshot implicates that the stun baton will become more of a turret support weapon than a stand-alone melee weapon.


I'm wondering then, if TFP considers the robotic sledge as the "T3 Baton." Regardless, Int still only has one firearm regardless of tier - the robotic turret.

 
I'm wondering then, if TFP considers the robotic sledge as the "T3 Baton." Regardless, Int still only has one firearm regardless of tier - the robotic turret.


Nope, two when fully perked 😁

Seriously, Int is special and I like that it is so special. INT is the attribute that helps replayability the most. 

 
Is that why INT only has the one firearm (robotic turret)?


I have no direct knowledge why the developers put no tier3 turret in the game. But I have a good guess, I know that they intented INT to be the one attribute that is NOT combat heavy.

In my games I don't miss tier3 fighting turrets because two turrets are already quite effective. And I very much like the different combat opportunities and difficulties.

But I have no use for the flying bag turret. Don't like it in my face. Should be behind me and come around when I hit some key then I might use it

 
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If you are also talking pure attribute perking, Int is the only one that can have 3 guns firing at the same time (2 turrets and 1 handheld).  All others can only have 2 (1 turret plus 1 handheld weapon)

 
Sure, but Int is also the only tree that requires a ranged weapon (turrets) to make your melee weapon (baton) viable.  It takes way too many hits for the baton to kill things like rad bikers for it to be useful for anything other than crowd control.

 
Sure, but Int is also the only tree that requires a ranged weapon (turrets) to make your melee weapon (baton) viable.  It takes way too many hits for the baton to kill things like rad bikers for it to be useful for anything other than crowd control.


That's fine for the Int attribute though, as the intent of a pure Int tree build is not to be a combat heavy build.  You don't have to make the baton stronger like the club.   Then the Int tree just becomes the strength tree but with turrets.  It's all about playing to the strengths of each attribute tree and not comparing its weaknesses to the other trees.

 
That's fine for the Int attribute though, as the intent of a pure Int tree build is not to be a combat heavy build.  You don't have to make the baton stronger like the club.   Then the Int tree just becomes the strength tree but with turrets.  It's all about playing to the strengths of each attribute tree and not comparing its weaknesses to the other trees.


But as combat is part of the game, it'd be nice to not feel required to go into another tree to better survive in a fight. Robotic turrets run out of ammo very quickly, and while yes it's ridiculously easy to craft ammo for them, you still have to keep picking it up to reload it, then set it back down. Even with a drum magazine, they chew through ammo fast.

 
But as combat is part of the game, it'd be nice to not feel required to go into another tree to better survive in a fight. Robotic turrets run out of ammo very quickly, and while yes it's ridiculously easy to craft ammo for them, you still have to keep picking it up to reload it, then set it back down. Even with a drum magazine, they chew through ammo fast.


But as [mining,farming,lockpicking,hunting,sneaking] is part of the game, it'd be nice to not feel required ... 😉

And another point: INT is not the best best tree for combat. If you then can bolster INT by going into another tree that is one more option than you have in many other games were you can only select one class and if that class is the medic, that's it.

 
I designed .45 ACP  to fit it between the 9mm and  the .44magnum   ,higher damage than 9mm  lower than the .44 but it can put in an automatic gun.

the ammo is expensive both in cost and ingredient for crafting.

I don't know about looting amout , I usually play with 33% loot and find them like 2 - 8 round / loot  (smallloot , mediumloot) and 50 rounds with tier 1,2 quest and I never found guns in loot even in the T5 chest

Don't worry about the early-game balance , if this game still allowed you to find/craft the pipe-machinegun in the first 15 min. this pack would be fine I think.

also, all the guns required workbench to craft
I lowered the damage numbers a bit (32, 40, 50, for regular, HP, Enhanced) and the weapons fit great. The iron sights + inbuilt silencer are wonderful. Congratulations on a well made mod!

I forgot to reply to this portion of your thread earlier.

Understand that an agility style playthrough that emphases stealth play using bows and knives will be a much slower progression through POIs.  If you are the type of player that doesn't want to spend more time than necessary or maximize your output in a day, you won't find it as fun as just blasting your way through the POIs.

Stealth is not like Skryim stealth where you can max out the skill, then simply crouch in front of them in daylight and they can't see you.  There is always a chance to fail the stealth check.  So really read From the Shadow perk description and make use of the ability to have them lose interest in you after you get out of their sight vector.  There is a reason that agility build has Parkour in it  😉
Yes, I started with agility now. A harrowing experience, but really fun. I managed to run away from a horde, then hid in the basement corner of an auto shop while 10 angry zombies prowled around in front of me. Scary and tense, but really fun. I managed to outjump them a few times as well though that sometimes failed with unpleasant consequences :/. The night time hordes that spawn in my back are difficult to deal with unless I have some handy terrain nearby and can Batman away.

I tried crossbow for the first time. I like it - not a weapon for plowing through hordes but very cost effective and great for lining up slow shots and taking out groups of 2-5 Zs when combined with a melee weapon, especially the fat ones are much easier with a bolt in the head to start. I don't lose much ammo either. Very nice.

Not as fond of the bleeding. It's nice for faster zombies in open spaces that I can kite, but in closed PoI areas it feels safer to me and faster to use spear and baton, I don't need to be as aware of my escape routes when I can zap. The part I like about zapping is that I can defend myself even in a corner if I get a stun with repulsor.

Loving the crossbow, loving the parkour, and loving the shadow stuff. A much more fun way to experience the tense early game at night. This game is way more fun when you are constantly teetering on the brink. (Also I increased the difficulty, turned on feral sense, lowered loot numbers, and increased night time).

I'm wondering then, if TFP considers the robotic sledge as the "T3 Baton." Regardless, Int still only has one firearm regardless of tier - the robotic turret.
What if they are introducing something new entirely for INT? Consider that schematics are going away, and the major draws of INT have been advanced engineering, T5 bartering for solar cells, and grease monkey. If vehicles and crafting/construction schematics are no longer available through skills, INT will need a replacement for those. Perhaps a new line of weapons? Perhaps something to do with mods? There are many possibilities, but there will be *something* no doubt.

Sure, but Int is also the only tree that requires a ranged weapon (turrets) to make your melee weapon (baton) viable.  It takes way too many hits for the baton to kill things like rad bikers for it to be useful for anything other than crowd control.
I think baton will fit better in A21. If they are removing it as a weapon and using it to fill out the robot tree, it will have a better role. Now that I think about it seems more likely that INT will get something else to fill the weapon role if that happens (or INT will become a support attribute entirely with no direct combat skills at all, which would signify a change in the skill setup and probably be even more exciting).

But as combat is part of the game, it'd be nice to not feel required to go into another tree to better survive in a fight. Robotic turrets run out of ammo very quickly, and while yes it's ridiculously easy to craft ammo for them, you still have to keep picking it up to reload it, then set it back down. Even with a drum magazine, they chew through ammo fast.
That would make for an excellent T3 turret. No meaningful increase in damage or range but uses only half as much ammo. Would also sync well with running double turrets.

But as [mining,farming,lockpicking,hunting,sneaking] is part of the game, it'd be nice to not feel required ... 😉

And another point: INT is not the best best tree for combat. If you then can bolster INT by going into another tree that is one more option than you have in many other games were you can only select one class and if that class is the medic, that's it.
I don't think INT is intended as a heavy combat tree, but it would be nice if you could feel the investment you made somehow when going into another tree. If there was a skill in INT that could show the deep investment you've made, even if it's mostly flavor, that would go a long way. I'd like to see something to that effect for all the attributes at rank 10, since at rank 10 you do feel that you belong to that attribute "class". Even better if attributes go up to rank 15 instead.

 
pssttt.....a shotgun in the hands of an Int build kills zombies too.  You don't have to be perked into the shotguns in order to use them.  Especially if said shotgun has the cripple em mod in it and you are aiming for the legs as your turret is firing away.

 
I don't think INT is intended as a heavy combat tree, but it would be nice if you could feel the investment you made somehow when going into another tree. If there was a skill in INT that could show the deep investment you've made, even if it's mostly flavor, that would go a long way. I'd like to see something to that effect for all the attributes at rank 10, since at rank 10 you do feel that you belong to that attribute "class". Even better if attributes go up to rank 15 instead.


What BFT said. And the draw of INT are the non-combat perks, even if the schematics go away now. It is unknown how A21 will fare, but in A17-A20 some players viewed Daring Adventurer the top perk even above Better Barter. Part of it was that the trader was not balanced with the progression so Daring Adventurer alone made sure you were progressing your gear very fast. And at the same time generated more money through quests than other players so you could buy more or better stuff, similar to the effect of better barter.

 
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What BFT said. And the draw of INT are the non-combat perks, even if the schematics go away now. It is unknown how A21 will fare, but in A17-A20 some players viewed Daring Adventurer the top perk even above Better Barter. Part of it was that the trader was not balanced with the progression so Daring Adventurer alone made sure you were progressing your gear very fast. And at the same time generated more money through quests than other players so you could buy more or better stuff, similar to the effect of better barter.
I forgot about daring adventurer completely, even though it's my favorite to max early. That double reward when clearing the quest tiers is too tasty.

I don't know what you are responding to here otherwise. That INT shouldn't have synergies with other trees? That INT shouldn't have a capstone of some sort that gives you some cool thing as a reward for your deep investment?

 
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