PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Aldranon]

If you make big mines near your base, you are the one who needs to learn how to play tbh. I never said anything about screamers beeing a threat to my base. I also didn´t mention magazines. Just said that when mining you can be in more unpredictable danger, espcially in big mines that you need if you want to build big,  than when you go looting.

I get a huge majority of my experience by building.  I love building.   I end up mining at bedrock, especially when I have an auger.  Mining from bottom up is fun and has a touch of danger for me.  You need to plan a bit.   The entrance to my underground labyrinth starts at the center of my base.  I just dig in a direction (at bedrock) of a mine I'm interested in away from my base and end up finding several more non surface mines.  Screamers are too easy to kill.   If they were a bit tougher, it would be more interesting.

But at that point, everything is too easy.  However, making super bullet sponges is not my idea of fun ether.

Early game is the best.  Mid-game is nice and late game is just killing time for me (making huge bases is always fun for me though).

Waiting on the Kraken! 

 

[Jost Amman]

If you make big mines near your base, you are the one who needs to learn how to play tbh. I never said anything about screamers beeing a threat to my base. I also didn´t mention magazines. Just said that when mining you can be in more unpredictable danger, espcially in big mines that you need if you want to build big,  than when you go looting.

We're talking about people who play all the time at their base, because they only want to mine and build. And my point is that building and mining are already OP since you can mostly (depending on the available materials/tools) do everything with minimal risk. ... So, who were you talking to then?

And what did any player do to get the "build a pipe weapon" perk? Nothing.

Besides, you wouldn't even be able to complete the starter quest if you couldn't build anything. After all, you have to upgrade at least one block.

Sorry, but your comparison is weak. Building allows you to build an entire base, up to cobblestone, and earn tons of XP (as I said), comparing that to a pipe weapon which is barely useful and doesn't give XP for crafting, is like comparing a four stars hotel to a run-down motel.

 

[Jost Amman]

Complain to the Fun Pimps. They've balanced it out.

And quite honestly. You complain that you get XP for building and mining but that's all you get as a reward. Noting else.

When you loot you get resources, weapons, tools, T2 and T3 schematics and even quality level 6 items on top of the XP.

You're clearly changing the point here because you have no argument to defend people who choose to stay home and risk close to nothing.

And by the way, the XP you earn "looting" is not because of the looting action only, and you know it. Most of it, is because you need to overcome the zombies outside and about and the zombies in POIs, avoid the traps, pick locks, search for treasure and so on... which is also the main point of the game: surviving the zombie threat.

Also, when you mine you get the XP, PLUS Clay, Rock, Iron, KNO3 and Lead, so you can get a lot of stuff mining and, as said, you risk close to nothing.

Also you can't unlock all schematics via the perks. In A21 you won't be able to unlock anything via the perks. Then T0 weapons and stone tools are the only things you can craft without magazines.

So what? ... Players who think they should be able to unlock everything without risking anything are exactly the negative example I started with when I cited communism.

Also, it's not as fun for most people, to be rewarded stuff in a game, without having to earn it.

If that's your point of view, I'll acknowledge it, but I'm strongly against it since we have very different views on what "fun" and challenge is, in a game.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Still talking to you who claimed that looting is so much more dangerous when it really isn´t that much more dangerous. @Jost Amman No matter what you discussed originally, i only reacted to that part. Or am i not allowed to do that?

 

[RipClaw]

You're clearly changing the point here because you have no argument to defend people who choose to stay home and risk close to nothing.

Why should I defend anything ? I just made it clear that building is not doing nothing. That what you claimed at the beginning.

But you have already admitted that building is an activity and an activity is by definition not not doing nothing but doing something.

And by the way, the XP you earn "looting" is not because of the looting action only, and you know it. Most of it, is because you need to overcome the zombies outside and about and the zombies in POIs, avoid the traps, pick locks, search for treasure and so on... which is also the main point of the game: surviving the zombie threat.

Also, when you mine you get the XP, PLUS Clay, Rock, Iron, KNO3 and Lead, so you can get a lot of stuff mining and, as said, you risk close to nothing.

I know all this, I just don't care. The Fun Pimps have assigned specific XP to specific activities. When you kill a zombie you get a certain amount of XP and when you upgrade a block you get a certain amount of XP. Apparently risk is not the only factor for the Fun Pimps. Deal with it.
 

So what? ... Players who think they should be able to unlock everything without risking anything are exactly the negative example I started with when I cited communism.

Also, it's not as fun for most people, to be rewarded stuff in a game, without having to earn it.

If that's your point of view, I'll acknowledge it, but I'm strongly against it since we have very different views on what "fun" and challenge is, in a game.

I only explained that you can't unlock everything via perks in A20 and that will not be able to unlock anything via perks in A21. It is just a simple fact and has nothing to do with my personal view.

 

[Roland]

Actually it is far worse than that. Instead one schematic you need, the thing you want is locked behind collecting a dozen magazines.

It will be interesting to see what happens when people actually play it. The book sets and mod schematics are still in the game as single volumes you can find to get a bonus. So that type of design is still in the game. Magazines are also in the game so you get to play both designs alongside each other. The magazine design is a lot more exciting and delivers more rewarding moments than the individual book volumes. I don't think people will think it is far worse.

And it will be the same dozen magazines every time you play.

It will actually be the same 23 magazines every time you play. That is a huge diversity and results in a different mix and different order that you find every time you play. I haven't felt like my early game has duplicated itself once and I've started over now at least a dozen times.

No more "Jackpot!" moments from getting lucky with a forge schematic on day 1

Maybe not as many but there are still some jackpot schematics and items you can find. Not only that but every time you read a magazine that triggers a new recipe being learned it is a mini jackpot feeling and I like those better because they happen more often and they don't ruin things by giving you something OP for your stage in the game.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Roland I highly doubt that a magazine for a crafting skill can be more exciting than beeing able to step on mines or extra 50% sneak damage or getting a chance to one shot ores. It´s just a crafting skill. That is now kind of luck based. Please note the "kind of" before going all over me about how it works.

 

[Jost Amman]

Still talking to you who claimed that looting is so much more dangerous when it really isn´t that much more dangerous. @Jost Amman No matter what you discussed originally, i only reacted to that part. Or am i not allowed to do that?

I just put my reply into context. If you can't understand I was talking about people that specifically choose to stay home, then it's your own fault.

You can't just barge into a discussion and reply out of context. If you do that, this is what you get.

Why should I defend anything ? I just made it clear that building is not doing nothing. That what you claimed at the beginning.

But you have already admitted that building is an activity and an activity is by definition not not doing nothing but doing something.

Splitting hairs, are we?

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Jost Amman I can. If you can´t accept that part of your argument is simply not true and can´t have someone telling you that, that is not my problem. Maybe i just didn´t want to participate in the whole topic because i don´t care about the rest of it, but still wanted to say that you are wrong with that particular argument. Valid if you ask me.

And there was nothing out of context. Stating that going looting isn´t that much more dangerous than doing the mining for a big build is within it´s own context. It doesn´t change anything if it is a discussion on it´s own or part of a more complex discussion. The facts for it stay the same.

 

[Jost Amman]

I know all this, I just don't care. The Fun Pimps have assigned specific XP to specific activities. When you kill a zombie you get a certain amount of XP and when you upgrade a block you get a certain amount of XP. Apparently risk is not the only factor for the Fun Pimps. Deal with it.

True. But it's not the least important, either. Actually, TFP seem to give risk vs. reward a very important role in how they weigh gameplay in 7D2D. That's why players who go out and fight and take risk, generally get a little better rewards than those that stay at home all day bashing blocks with their stone axe. Deal with it.  

That's the whole point of my argument here, and from what I understand, you think people who "stay at home" should be instead equally rewarded.

I disagree with you on that.

I only explained that you can't unlock everything via perks in A20 and that will not be able to unlock anything via perks in A21. It is just a simple fact and has nothing to do with my personal view.

Miscellaneous.

It will be interesting to see what happens when people actually play it. The book sets and mod schematics are still in the game as single volumes you can find to get a bonus. So that type of design is still in the game. Magazines are also in the game so you get to play both designs alongside each other. The magazine design is a lot more exciting and delivers more rewarding moments than the individual book volumes. I don't think people will think it is far worse.

Are you serious? And what about people who absolutely don't want to go looting and don't have friends? What about them? And what about me? I don't want to lift a single @%$#ing finger because I like to look at the weather all the time. Why can't I get the same XP and stuff of the other guys in my team?

The Fun Pimps are really cruel! They're ruining my life!  :nono:

 

[Jost Amman]

And there was nothing out of context. Stating that going looting isn´t that much more dangerous than doing the mining for a big build is within it´s own context. It doesn´t change anything if it is a discussion on it´s own or part of a more complex discussion. The facts for it stay the same.

Except (IMO) you're wrong. When I'm digging near (or under) my base, I have a lot of stuff from my base to help me defend from screamers.

You can put a lot of spike traps to protect the area while mining, you can have turrets from your base ready to shoot (just in case), you can, as I often do, have a mine accessible just under your base (I often do this, and I'm also ok with SI because I know how to do it).

See? If you took it in context, you'd probably agree with me that having screamers coming while digging at your base, is much less risky.  

Ok, now I'll refrain from bantering on the subject because I've already taken too much space from the dev diary!  :israel:

 

[Grue]

magazines are different from the books (which still exist) reading the magazines increase the crafting tiers appropriately when you read enough. the books have nothing to do with crafting now but still have perk benefits as they did before.

example and this is only an example.... you may need to read 75 magazines for tools with each tier increasing after every so many mags are read. so if you read say 15 tool magazines then you will be advanced to crafting tier 2.

so now you read books for the perks they give and the last volume bonus and you read magazines to improve your crating tiers. (the mags do not offer any bonuses) and the rules are still the same for now as you can only craft as high as t5 blues.

Why do you hate us?

Lol, my sentiments exactly!

With crafting tiers locked behind looting dozens of magazines, AND capping it at Blues...

It seems like good odds that you will loot a tier 6 of any given item long before you will ever be able to craft a tier 5 of the same item. Which would make the whole collection of magazines and item crafting itself an exercise in futility.

It feels like the player agency/control inherent to being able to craft the things you want/need is taking a back seat to an RNG grindfest.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Except (IMO) you're wrong. When I'm digging near (or under) my base, I have a lot of stuff from my base to help me defend from screamers.

You can put a lot of spike traps to protect the area while mining, you can have turrets from your base ready to shoot (just in case), you can, as I often do, have a mine accessible just under your base (I often do this, and I'm also ok with SI because I know how to do it).

See? If you took it in context, you'd probably agree with me that having screamers coming while digging at your base, is much less risky.  

Ok, now I'll refrain from bantering on the subject because I've already taken too much space from the dev diary!  :israel:

Yes, for a playtrough were you only build what you really need and nothing more this is viable. But not for big builds as you mentioned in your example. It´s part of the discussion about A21 and the whole forced to be going out thing, so i don´t see a problem discussing this here?  There is no way you should do a big mine for building a whole castle big enough under your base.

And the people who wanna do this should be able to rely on others without any disadvantage, wich also means they should be able to level their crafting as fast as when looting themselves. Everything else is simply a F u for builders/miners/cooks/farmers/crafters who purely play the game for those aspects, having not the slightest interest in raiding POI´s. Punishing playstyles is simply a no go (and it doesn´t matter if that was the intenion or not, TFP knows exactly what the effcets of those changes are). No matter who risks more tbh. And while we are beeing honest, what risk? My last two playtroughs in permadeath SP both ended out of boredom and not because i died. On Survivalist. No traders. and no building other than what is really necessary aka hordbase and a small crafting base, mainly going out to the POI´s.

Allowing to have stay at home playstyles (mining isn´t really stay at home though) for years and then suddenly making them unattractive by giving them disadvantages is just rude to say it nice.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

And talking about forcing people to go out. The whole water change plays a role there aswell i assume. It´s not only that you need to loot for magazines to skill crafting, it might also be a problem for the looters to provide enough murky water for the whole group. Not sure as i can´t say anything about the droprate of murky water yet. But i assume that it won´t be too high as the whole change was intended to make the survival part more challenging.

 

[Roland]

Lol, my sentiments exactly!

With crafting tiers locked behind looting dozens of magazines, AND capping it at Blues...

It seems like good odds that you will loot a tier 6 of any given item long before you will ever be able to craft a tier 5 of the same item. Which would make the whole collection of magazines and item crafting itself an exercise in futility.

It feels like the player agency/control inherent to being able to craft the things you want/need is taking a back seat to an RNG grindfest.

It seems that way on paper but in reality I craft much more often in A21 than I ever did in A20 or A19. It does seem counter-intuitive but it is true. I still do occasionally find something better than what I can craft but it is nowhere nearly as often as it has been in the past.

I just want to clarify that when Joe said that it takes about 15 magazines to reach tier 2 he was talking about tier 2 level gear as in the iron level. He wasn't saying that it takes 15 magazines to start crafting orange quality stuff. Its about 3 magazines to advance up to each next milestone.

And the people who wanna do this should be able to rely on others without any disadvantage, which also means they should be able to level their crafting as fast as when looting themselves.

Who established this gameplay morality?

 

[Roland]

@Roland I highly doubt that a magazine for a crafting skill can be more exciting than beeing able to step on mines or extra 50% sneak damage or getting a chance to one shot ores. It´s just a crafting skill. That is now kind of luck based. Please note the "kind of" before going all over me about how it works.

I would have doubted it too and yet I'm always happy when my quality tier for a piece of gear increases or I can suddenly craft something new that I had been waiting for. Maybe it seems like "just crafting skill" because in the context of A20 it is just an obligatory part of the perk trees and you are completely in control of which recipes you are unlocking. Most people fall into a pattern of always doing the same thing so learning recipes can certainly be a bit predictable and boring in A20. With it out of your control and as a prize for opening containers it ends up being more exciting.

Maybe it's just me and nobody is going to be thrilled every time they get magazines and learn new and better recipes as a separate thing. Maybe everyone will still think "It's just a new crafting recipe, big whup!"

Somehow I doubt that.

 

[RipClaw]

True. But it's not the least important, either. Actually, TFP seem to give risk vs. reward a very important role in how they weigh gameplay in 7D2D. That's why players who go out and fight and take risk, generally get a little better rewards than those that stay at home all day bashing blocks with their stone axe. Deal with it.  

I only said that risk is obviously not the only factor for the Fun Pimps. I have never denied that they have a preference for risk vs. reward.

Nevertheless, they don't seem to consider building as doing nothing and therefore give the player tons of XP.

That's the whole point of my argument here, and from what I understand, you think people who "stay at home" should be instead equally rewarded.

I disagree with you on that.

What makes you think that? Actually, I think the current system is a good compromise. Some things you can unlock via perks, other things not. If T1 weapons and tools are sufficient, you can stay at home. If you want more you have to go looting.

 

[BFT2020]

Everything else is simply a F u for builders/miners/cooks/farmers/crafters who purely play the game for those aspects, having not the slightest interest in raiding POI´s. Punishing playstyles is simply a no go (and it doesn´t matter if that was the intenion or not, TFP knows exactly what the effcets of those changes are).

The thing is, this game is not a building simulator.  it is not a crafting simulator.  It is not a mining or farming or cooking simulator.  It is a zombie game that has all of those elements as part of the game, and TFP are working to balance all of those aspects together.

If you want to play this game solely as a builder or a crafter, you have to understand that this game is not going to be designed around your playstyle and you will need to make adjustments, either in the way you are playing (so yes, going out to loot and find magazines to get your crafting levels up or spec'ing into certain perks so you can mine better or gather resources for your big builds) or modify the game to fit your playstyle.  Or simply turn on CM and gift yourself all of those items that you don't want to raid POIs to get.

I only play SP so I don't have a team to help me out, so I understand that some days I am doing trader missions, other days I am just going though targeted POIs to get the items I am looking for, other days are simply mining, and even days strictly dedicated to base building, whether it is converting the rubble POI into a base for both crafting and horde, or building a massive base from ground up.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Who established this gameplay morality?

Years over years where the game made no difference between playstyles at all established that. And who would want to make their own game less attractive for a certain group of players when it´s not absolutly necessary? And that change is far from beeing absolutly necessary. Something similar could have been done without having disadvantages for certain playstyles.

Yeah, i know they wanna make the game how they like to play it, yada, yada. But doing this that late in development? Really? Changing game mechanics is fine during EA, no matter when. But not at the cost of players not beeing able to play how they like anymore after all those years.

 

[Roland]

Years over years where the game made no difference between playstyles at all. 

Because we've never over the years and years had many threads at every major update of outraged players who claimed changes to the game stepped on their playstyle? If the game has continued to allow "all playstyles" until recently it is only because in every single case, once players get used to the changes, they realize that their playstyle still works after all.