PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[ArneK]

There might be a post about this suggestion already, but 150+ pages are quite a bunch to be read at once so I give my 2 cents anyway.

Water and vanishing glass jars:

I think it would be better if those empty glass jars remained in the game as they are in A20, but instead of finding them in the world all the time, you could reduce their number significantly. Empty jars could be mostly broken glass instead when looting. And murky water should stack in 10 only like bottled water now is. Heck you could also make empty jars stack in 10 only so you couldn't carry so many of them in your backpack at once (without hurting your carrying ability for other items). That way you could still carry water from rivers and lakes, but significantly make it harder in the early game. You could also make it so that character can't actually craft jars at forge without perking into it or reading (and finding) a proper book.

You could reduce the drop rate for murky water from cabinets and other places. Also murky water from toilets could require empty jar to pick it up (although I don't know how that could be implemented well in the game mechanics).

Someone mentioned here that there are already containers that vanishes when used (glue and gas for example), but I wouldn't mind them also requiring scrap polymers when crafted at chemistry stations. Glue could turn to scrap polymers when used. Gas cans could turn to empty plastic cans or back into scrap polymers when consumed. Which you would then use again if you wanted to craft glue or gas. And you could remove glue crafting completely from campfires, I would be fine with that.

I know that 7dtd is just a game, but I've been enjoying it's immersive side very much and I feel that A21 is reducing the immersion quite a bunch to repair these apparent balance issues.

 

[Aldranon]

I still think the big, BIG picture of the game plot, is working toward a viable, believable part 2!

With the presupposition that the player is in a fevered dream fighting off the zombie virus, probably in a hospital (not required, but a solid wink to "The Walking Dead" series), everything makes sense!

-Air drops are injections of immunoglobulins and various nutrients. 

-The White River are the player's fevered view of the nurses (in white) who are helping them.

-Blood Moon hordes are when the virus tries to turn the person into a Zombie (or they just die).

-The ruined buildings are a subconscious interpretation of the players health.

-As the player progresses, they're health is becoming better. After completing tier 5 POIs for all traders on the map the player is cured and wakes up!

When the player wakes up there could be a whole spectrum of situations awaiting them!  The game could start as the zombie virus is still thought as a bad flu (Covid-66Z).

The player has 7 days before all hell breaks loose, and they have to prepare for what they believe might come.

Of course, Part2 could have several starting situations and/or several levels of wealth and abilities at start (a wink to Station 11?)

Anyway, fuel for thought.

 

[FinkPloyd]

Most of the time when I see someone try to give feedback, people like you (often specifically you) shout us down to defend whatever the newest questionable mechanic is as if your life depends on it.

Roland has played with the change to remove jars, I assume you have not.

So please dont be offended if I value Roland's opinion above yours.

Fun Pimps made 7D2D an excelent game so far. I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

But...I need a fix...anyone got a juicy titbit of release info?

Even a dried up bit would help...

 

[Jost Amman]

Most of the time when I see someone try to give feedback, people like you (often specifically you) shout us down to defend whatever the newest questionable mechanic is as if your life depends on it. 

Don't worry, now that @Crater Creator is Super Moderator, I'm sure he'll address all your concerns and have TFP change back any game mechanic you don't like.

Is there any way zombie AI could be tweaked to make the 'ramp up to killbox' style of base less op? 

Maybe occasionally a zombie will ignore the vertical distance and just get as close as they can on the horizontal axis and start attacking blocks?

Maybe sometimes their pathfinding is drastically reduced so they don't notice that convenient set of steps up to where you want them to be?

I don't pretend to understand how all the code works. I really think a little RNG could help. 

For every complaint like yours, I see as many (if not more) complaints about the opposite...

*in frustrated voice*

"Why did the zombies ignore my beautiful easy path of least resistance to just stop and bash my walls??"

Go figure...

 

[Annihilatorza]

Granted it's probably not the majority of people, but neither is it an edge case for people who play in groups to divide their labor, for example on a community server supporting a streamer. Or even solo gamers who want to play a low-loot, self-sufficient type of game.

My point is to shine a light on the fact that not everyone plays the game as a roving murder-hobo rummaging through one POI after another.

If they keep chasing that lowest common denominator, it becomes recursive, and everyone plays that way because it is the only way left to play.

It would be nice if the devs would kindly take their thumb off the scales to force gameplay in that direction.

And you are right, one would hope that a good group would help out the support people back home building things and making the hobo stew for everyone.

I recommend a google search to help clear up the historical reference.

https://gprivate.com/62uqp

That generalization is patently false.

Just off the top of my head:

Green Hell, rainforest.

The Long Dark, surrounded by snow.

Raft, literally floating in water.

I am not the least bit angry, Roland.

If anything, I am just sick and tired of disappointment.

We are a decade into "early access", that excuse ran its course long ago.

Besides, playtesting implies they actually listen to the feedback from us peasants at some point in the development process, which all too often does not appear to be the case.

Most of the time when I see someone try to give feedback, people like you (often specifically you) shout us down to defend whatever the newest questionable mechanic is as if your life depends on it. 

Thank you for finally addressing my concern.

This is my concern with learn by looting, it forces you to been in the city looting and as Grue said a 'roving murder-hobo' it gives you 0 other options, I know that its been said several times, your friends can bring you the books you need.

What if they need the books themselves or they simply dont find it or they dump the books due to lack of space in the inventory. 

When I play I have had times where I just dont want to deal with clearing out another 5 - 10 POI to find a book or a crucible and I just craft and build and mine for the XP I need to build my horde base, but I dont have a choice now, I must go into the city and loot and kill to get what I need for the horde base.  

IMO and I might be completely wrong here, It forces you into one game play style 

Need to know how to make concrete 

Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Need to know how to make a AK47

Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Need to know how to make traps 

Go to city and kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Example

"Its day 13 and I have yet to find a book on how to make concrete and I am still looting, day 14 arrives still looking , find it lunch day 14 but now I dont have enough time to make what I need, so I die and my base gets destroyed. "

You could maybe get them from a trader but that still means your are looting to get the coin.

I have spent hours and hours thinking about this and how it there might a variation I might be missing but I cant seem to find it, everything is now tied to finding books and hoping the RNG does not screw you over. 

I know most of this post is pure speculation as we have yet to play this new version but its been 14 months since A20 so I dont really have a choice but to speculate

But mainly, I am just dying to play the new build for me the number one change is the water fix, I cant wait to see it.

Thanks so much for everything you guys are doing.

Anni

 

[Roland]

I recommend a google search to help clear up the historical reference.

https://gprivate.com/62uqp

I never said I didn't know the historical reference. I said I didn't get what you mean by it in the context of the game and gathering water. How about you just say what you mean plainly.

That generalization is patently false.

Just off the top of my head:

Green Hell, rainforest.

The Long Dark, surrounded by snow.

Raft, literally floating in water.

I haven't played Green Hell or Long Dark. In Raft you are literally floating in water but do you know what you don't have on day one? 30 empty jars to fill up with with water that is drinkable from day one. You can inform me about Long Dark or Green Hell. Do those games allow you to load up on all the water you need for the foreseeable future from the first moments of the game? I've watched people play Long Dark and I am pretty sure your inventory is more limited than 7 Days to Die but can you build up an easily accessible stash of stack and stack of water from all that snow like you can in 7 Days to Die? I don't think so. I think you're superficially naming games that have a lot of water but don't actually allow the player to have unlimited access to it all right from the day one. I know for sure you can't with raft. Surrounded by sea water we might be but that doesn't translate to day one drinkable water surplus all around.

I am not the least bit angry, Roland.

If anything, I am just sick and tired of disappointment.

Apologies.

This only makes you angry sick and tired of disappointment because you refuse to accept your role in early access.

We are a decade into "early access", that excuse ran its course long ago.

It isn't an excuse. It is the state of the game and it doesn't run its course until the game state changes to finished. It has been a long road and it isn't uncommon for people to get fatigued before it is over. But that is just you being fatigued and burnt out and not necessarily a reflection on whether the development process is still continuing. It is. Changes are still happening. You are playing the game before it is finished. Hence, early access is still ongoing. There is no evidence to show that 7 Days to Die should lose that status. All the evidence shows that it still has some way to go before it is finished.

Besides, playtesting implies they actually listen to the feedback from us peasants at some point in the development process, which all too often does not appear to be the case.

Most of the time when I see someone try to give feedback, people like you (often specifically you) shout us down to defend whatever the newest questionable mechanic is as if your life depends on it. 

They do actually listen to the feedback you give after playtesting. They read several forums and twitch channels and they also have feedback collection built into the game. But the key here to the feedback they care about is this word: Playtesting. 

As for shouting down someone's feedback I don't do that at all when it is game related feedback based on playtesting. What I do counter is when people make speculations about the motives or thought processes of the developers or spread doom and gloom about the future of game based on faulty opinions they have because they don't know all the facts. Show me where I have actually shouted down someone's gameplay feedback. It doesn't exist. Even now our discussion has nothing to do with actual gameplay. It is about how early access works and about how the developers do consider the feedback of the community when it is based upon actual playtime data.  Where have I said anything to disrespect your gameplay feedback or anyone's by "shouting you down"?

In the case of the water survival changes and the learn by reading mechanics, I do share my own actual gameplay feedback as a counterpoint to many of the worst case scenario speculations that people are throwing out there without any evidence other than their fears and worries about change. 

Thank you for finally addressing my concern.

Finally? I've been typing out these examples and giving these insights for both water survival and the magazine crafting system for months now. It just goes to show how people would rather ignore what one eyewitness reports in favor of just repeating each others' worst case scenario fears and worries over and over and over.

Glad your concern could be addressed.

 

[Jost Amman]

When I play I have had times where I just dont want to deal with clearing out another 5 - 10 POI to find a book or a crucible and I just craft and build and mine for the XP I need to build my horde base, but I dont have a choice now, I must go into the city and loot and kill to get what I need for the horde base.  

Like what? You can build all you want without any books.

Unless you're talking about electrical traps, in which case it's common sense you need to learn that stuff from somewhere.

Actually, this gives me a good segue into something I've been complaining about for a long time.

Why, of all skills, is building not one of those skills you have to learn?

 

[Riamus]

This is my concern with learn by looting, it forces you to been in the city looting and as Grue said a 'roving murder-hobo' it gives you 0 other options, I know that its been said several times, your friends can bring you the books you need.

What if they need the books themselves or they simply dont find it or they dump the books due to lack of space in the inventory. 

When I play I have had times where I just dont want to deal with clearing out another 5 - 10 POI to find a book or a crucible and I just craft and build and mine for the XP I need to build my horde base, but I dont have a choice now, I must go into the city and loot and kill to get what I need for the horde base.  

IMO and I might be completely wrong here, It forces you into one game play style 

Need to know how to make concrete 

Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Need to know how to make a AK47

Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Need to know how to make traps 

Go to city and kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Example

"Its day 13 and I have yet to find a book on how to make concrete and I am still looting, day 14 arrives still looking , find it lunch day 14 but now I dont have enough time to make what I need, so I die and my base gets destroyed. "

You could maybe get them from a trader but that still means your are looting to get the coin.

I have spent hours and hours thinking about this and how it there might a variation I might be missing but I cant seem to find it, everything is now tied to finding books and hoping the RNG does not screw you over. 

I know most of this post is pure speculation as we have yet to play this new version but its been 14 months since A20 so I dont really have a choice but to speculate

Thanks so much for everything you guys are doing.

Anni

I think you misunderstood how the magazine change works.  You no longer have to find a specific book (schematic) in order to make something.  You find magazines that are, in a way, generic.  For example, you find magazines relating to spears.  You find these often and each one you read increases your knowledge.  You aren't looking for many different volumes of the magazine, but are looking just for the spear magazine.  Initially, you can only make a tier 1, quality 1 spear, but as you find more of this magazine, you learn more and can make better spears.  By perking into spears, your chances of finding spear magazines increases, making it easier to find the magazines in order to make better spears.  Unlike now, where if you can't find a specific schematic you can't make something, you will find magazines often and will unlock the better versions of items as you read them.  RNG no longer prevents you from making something.  Of course, this also means you don't get lucky and find a schematic for something great immediately.  If anything, this change solves the problem you are describing rather than creating that problem.

As far as difficulty finding magazines, this should not be a big problem.  If you want magazines related to medicine crafting, visit a pharmacy or hospital.  If you want magazines related to guns, visit a shotgun messiah.  You can still find other magazines in these places, but you have a greater chance of getting magazines that fit the POI.  And magazines will drop far more often than what we see now, where most drops are paper.

Now, I haven't played A21 obviously, so I'm going by what has been revealed, but the changes seen like they will be good overall.  I was initially concerned about them and I still am a bit leery, but I don't expect a serious problem except for people who try to rush through by trying to get specific schematics right away.  That said, I did like the variety between games and am a little concerned that this linearity may make the game stale after a few games because things will progress the same each game instead of having variety.  That is my biggest concern.

 

[Roland]

This is my concern with learn by looting, it forces you to been in the city looting and as Grue said a 'roving murder-hobo' it gives you 0 other options, I know that its been said several times, your friends can bring you the books you need.

What if they need the books themselves or they simply dont find it or they dump the books due to lack of space in the inventory.

In the case of friends the magazines are different than past books we've had in the game. Currently it makes sense to read any books I find and simply take duplicate books home for my buddies to read. But with the new magazines, that is completely inefficient and counterproductive. If I read a magazine and you read the same magazine and someone else reads the same magazine then all three of us are at level one and can still only craft the lowest tier. But if we all give our magazines to one person to read (doesn't matter who) then that one person can craft at level three and make better stuff for all of us.

With skills it makes sense for everyone to have the same skills. We would all like to have a10% boost to our damage or our stamina so of course everyone will read that book themself when they find it and only share any duplicates. But it makes no sense for everyone to be able to craft the same thing at low levels. As for dumping duplicate magazines for inventory space, I doubt anyone will do that. The magazines feel extremely valuable. Nobody is likely to just throw them out because they want to hold onto some lead.

So I hope you see that with the magazines, self-interest actually pushes people to divide up the magazines so specific people get as high level as they can in their specialty. If you are building at camp you will read certain magzines and craft those things for everyone all while still leveling up and using skill points for your perks that you get from upgrading the blocks you are building for your base. You won't have to loot at all if you don't want to.

 

[Annihilatorza]

I think you misunderstood how the magazine change works.  You no longer have to find a specific book (schematic) in order to make something.  You find magazines that are, in a way, generic.  For example, you find magazines relating to spears.  You find these often and each one you read increases your knowledge.  You aren't looking for many different volumes of the magazine, but are looking just for the spear magazine.  Initially, you can only make a tier 1, quality 1 spear, but as you find more of this magazine, you learn more and can make better spears.  By perking into spears, your chances of finding spear magazines increases, making it easier to find the magazines in order to make better spears.  Unlike now, where if you can't find a specific schematic you can't make something, you will find magazines often and will unlock the better versions of items as you read them.  RNG no longer prevents you from making something.  Of course, this also means you don't get lucky and find a schematic for something great immediately.  If anything, this change solves the problem you are describing rather than creating that problem.

As far as difficulty finding magazines, this should not be a big problem.  If you want magazines related to medicine crafting, visit a pharmacy or hospital.  If you want magazines related to guns, visit a shotgun messiah.  You can still find other magazines in these places, but you have a greater chance of getting magazines that fit the POI.  And magazines will drop far more often than what we see now, where most drops are paper.

Now, I haven't played A21 obviously, so I'm going by what has been revealed, but the changes seen like they will be good overall.  I was initially concerned about them and I still am a bit leery, but I don't expect a serious problem except for people who try to rush through by trying to get specific schematics right away.  That said, I did like the variety between games and am a little concerned that this linearity may make the game stale after a few games because things will progress the same each game instead of having variety.  That is my biggest concern.

Thanks for your comprehensive reply, it might be the greatest skill system ever and I think some of my issue with it might be its just such a massive change from anything we have ever used before. 

I am playing Empyrion currently and it uses a system similar to A20 so it easy to understand. 

I just hope we get a bigger backpack, so much loot to carry and yes I am packrat, I strip every POI of everything thats not nailed down and then somethings that are.

Thanks Roland for all your Hard work you put into these forums, I know its not easy.

 

[smadcore]

That's kinda hilarious Grue. I guess you need to cater to two types of audiences. BTW all the work you team is doing is fantastic. Just a suggestion from someone who has been playing since 2016

,

 

[Riamus]

I just hope we get a bigger backpack, so much loot to carry and yes I am packrat, I strip every POI of everything thats not nailed down and then somethings that are.

Have you tried using a drone yet?  One you get a tier 6 drone, you can put 4 cargo mods into it if you want and increase your inventory space within a POI by, I believe, 48 spaces.  Yes, they are a pain when they have difficulty following you sometimes, but it really helps if you loot everything in a POI. 

@RolandCan you tell us what the stack size is for a specific magazine?  I wouldn't want to have multiple stacks of the same magazine after looting a large bookstore, for example.  Multiple stacks of different magazines are fine, of course.

 

[RipClaw]

Like what? You can build all you want without any books.

To a limited extent. You can build a wood or cobblestone base but that's it without looting. For the production of cement and concrete you need a forge and a concrete mixer. You also need a workbench to build the cement mixer. In A20 you can unlock the recipes via Advanced Engineering. In A21 you need to read a certain amount of Forge Ahead magazines.
 

 

[FinkPloyd]

Do the new magazines appear in the loot dropped by zombies?

Or will you get magazines from horde nights?

 

[Jost Amman]

To a limited extent. You can build a wood or cobblestone base but that's it without looting. For the production of cement and concrete you need a forge and a concrete mixer. You also need a workbench to build the concrete mixer. In A20 you can unlock the recipes via Advanced Engineering. In A21 you need to read a certain amount of Forge Ahead magazines.

You can buy concrete and workstations at a trader pretty easily, then you're set.

But my point is you can still do A LOT just by standing there just building. That's already fairly OP and unbalanced, IMO... what other game lets you have everything by basically doing nothing? 

 

[Grue]

Don't worry, now that @Crater Creator is Super Moderator, I'm sure he'll address all your concerns and have TFP change back any game mechanic you don't like.

For every complaint like yours, I see as many (if not more) complaints about the opposite...

*in frustrated voice*

"Why did the zombies ignore my beautiful easy path of least resistance to just stop and bash my walls??"

Go figure...

Now that you mention it, I have hated the zombie AI since A17. 

Please bring back the zombies that actually act like zombies instead of the conga line of structural engineers who magically detect and path to the weakest block.

It was far less predicable and exploitable when the zombies would just swarm in waves and start beating on random parts of your walls. Now all horde bases are basically identical because the zombies are too "smart" for their own good.

I'm sure Crater will get right on that.

This is my concern with learn by looting, it forces you to been in the city looting and as Grue said a 'roving murder-hobo' it gives you 0 other options, I know that its been said several times, your friends can bring you the books you need.

What if they need the books themselves or they simply dont find it or they dump the books due to lack of space in the inventory. 

When I play I have had times where I just dont want to deal with clearing out another 5 - 10 POI to find a book or a crucible and I just craft and build and mine for the XP I need to build my horde base, but I dont have a choice now, I must go into the city and loot and kill to get what I need for the horde base.  

IMO and I might be completely wrong here, It forces you into one game play style 

Need to know how to make concrete 

Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Need to know how to make a AK47

Go to the city kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Need to know how to make traps 

Go to city and kill and loot and hope you find the book you need.

Example

"Its day 13 and I have yet to find a book on how to make concrete and I am still looting, day 14 arrives still looking , find it lunch day 14 but now I dont have enough time to make what I need, so I die and my base gets destroyed. "

You could maybe get them from a trader but that still means your are looting to get the coin.

I have spent hours and hours thinking about this and how it there might a variation I might be missing but I cant seem to find it, everything is now tied to finding books and hoping the RNG does not screw you over. 

I know most of this post is pure speculation as we have yet to play this new version but its been 14 months since A20 so I dont really have a choice but to speculate

But mainly, I am just dying to play the new build for me the number one change is the water fix, I cant wait to see it.

Thanks so much for everything you guys are doing.

Anni

Actually it is far worse than that. Instead one schematic you need, the thing you want is locked behind collecting a dozen magazines.

And it will be the same dozen magazines every time you play.

No more "Jackpot!" moments from getting lucky with a forge schematic on day 1,

Or debating spending points to get the recipe you need vs waiting for the next trade day to try to buy one. 

The RNG for schematics may have been fickle at times, but it also made every play though unique.

And for most things there was a fall back of spending points to get what you could not find.

 

[RipClaw]

The new system does encourage looting more, but still has to balance between all the aspects,

because in single player you just have to do them all to survive...and of course this variety of different aspects is mostly what makes the fun in the game.

I wouldn't call it encouraging if you don't have a real alternative. I know the trader will also sell magazines but it probably won't be more than a handful and certainly much less than you get by looting.

And it's not like you have to do all of it as a single player to survive. In fact, only looting and killing zombies are activities where you have no choice. Activities like building, mining and farming are rather optional and are often neglected or ignored by players. I personally think it's very sad that these aspects are not more important because I enjoy them very much.

 

[Jost Amman]

Now that you mention it, I have hated the zombie AI since A17. 

Please bring back the zombies that actually act like zombies instead of the conga line of structural engineers who magically detect and path to the weakest block.

It was far less predicable and exploitable when the zombies would just swarm in waves and start beating on random parts of your walls. Now all horde bases are basically identical because the zombies are too "smart" for their own good.

I'm sure Crater will get right on that.

I think you bought the wrong game then... did you miss the part about "tower defense" elements? That's exactly how monsters behave in a TD game, so unless you want them to also change this game's sub-genre, I suggest you adapt your gameplay to it.

No more "Jackpot!" moments from getting lucky with a forge schematic on day 1,

Or debating spending points to get the recipe you need vs waiting for the next trade day to try to buy one. 

The RNG for schematics may have been fickle at times, but it also made every play though unique.

And for most things there was a fall back of spending points to get what you could not find.

I partially agree on the "less RNG" part, but not about the "Jackpot!" moment. I expect we'll loot many more magazines, and each one will bring us nearer to our goal, so the moment I'll find the last one I need to reach the specific schematics I'm interested in, it WILL be a Jackpot moment.  

What they did is remove the frustration of having RNG work against you too much, and they also rewarded "smart looting". In A21, in fact, we'll have themed containers in themed POIs, so when you need to hunt for a specific set of magazines, you can plan an expedition to (e.g.) Pass and Gas and try to find schematics for vehicles.

 

[RipClaw]

You can buy concrete and workstations at a trader pretty easily, then you're set.

The amount of concrete you get from the trader is very small and extremely overpriced. As for the workstations, it is random whether the trader has them or not. I think it is trader Bob where you have a better chance.

But my point is you can still do A LOT just by standing there just building. That's already fairly OP and unbalanced, IMO... what other game lets you have everything by basically doing nothing? This is becoming preposterous, it's like communism, where people who do more and have merit, get the same treatment as those who do nothing at all.

If you call building doing nothing, you have never really built. I am currently working on a horde base. So far, I've spent an estimated 30,000 concrete and about 10,000 steel on the build. I didn't just snap my finger and the materials were there. I had to mine and process them.

 

[Jost Amman]

If you call building doing nothing, you have never really built. I am currently working on a horde base. So far, I've spent an estimated 30,000 concrete and about 10,000 steel on the build. I didn't just snap my finger and the materials were there. I had to mine and process them.

Com'on, you know what I mean... you're better than that.