PC Are the Devs just dumb?

@Matt115,

A big part of the design of 7DTD is the ability to mod it.  To say you want changes that TFP will not make, without mods, is to say you do not want changes.  Mods ARE what make this game a better game, not a worse game.  Whatever game 7DTD ends up being some people will not like it.  That's okay because they also gave us the ability to change it.  Either get past your bias against mods and change or move on to another game.  Seriously.
That's wasn't my point. My point was that game was hardcore and TFP decided to make it casual. And mods won't solve this problem. No matter how good mods now will be -  basic game is casual. And that's it. So mods don't change this game for better.  You can say that "maybe someone will do hardcore mod" well this can be true but mean : it's need a years + we could get good hardcore game years ago but devs decided to listen who complain that is too easy - if this game was so casual - i woudn't complain. But it' was change from hardcore too casual. So mods are not argument here. 

Big part of design? yes. But you can made a hardcore game and mods can be still big part of design. But then mods will be probably  even more hardcore that basic game

 
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I have to disagree, Matt. Strictly business TFP, as a company is incentivized to sell as many copies as possible. I don't have any issues with them doing what they can to make sales..  and I think it's really a wonderfully great thing that they've made 7D2D as easily modable as it is.

To make a comparison. I enjoyed Skyrim, but it doesn't offer everything I wanted in a game - in fact, it lacked a lot. Thanks to the large modding community - Which is also thanks in part to selling many copies, I was able to get the gaming experience I wanted from it. [With like 150+mods in at my last playthrough] I got harder survial aspects, harsher weather, death penalties, diseases, ect. I know all these were added because of the fans, and I'm eternally grateful for those that put hundreds of hours of their life into improving the game.. but I also felt my Bethesda deserved some of that credit for having their game designed in a way people could make it happen. [Until that last DLC which was basically - Pay us for all this fan made content. That was some bull@%$#.]

 
The game is not casual but you could claim the default settings are casual.  Just because someone's skill set allows them to excel while difficulty settings are maxed doesn't mean the game with those settings deserves a casual rating.  The number of people playing at max difficulty versus ones playing with more moderate settings is a pretty small ratio.  It's that way in nearly every game that doesn't have PvP as part of its core structure.

 
And mods won't solve this problem. No matter how good mods now will be -  basic game is casual. And that's it. So mods don't change this game for better.
Yeahhh, gonna have to strongly disagree with that one, man. Several mods make the game more challenging, and add some of the old features like smell and degradation for example.

You always mention playing mods for other games, but when it comes to 7 Days you keep repeating that mods aren't a solution. Just sounds like someone in denial. The devs more than likely won't be adding a lot of this stuff back, but plenty of modders have.

 
There was one for A17 death penalty though.


That was not an official poll put out by TFP as far as I know. Rick has been very clear with us moderators that if we make polls we make it clear that they are not official TFP polls and in general discourages us as moderators from making polls at all just in case someone thinks it is official because we made it. Polls created by other users are, of course, not official. Rick is very wary about doing things that force their hands and make them beholden to a promise that may go against what they really want to do. His perspective is that an official poll comes with a promise that the devs will honor whatever the outcome is and TFP is only ever willing to do what they feel is best for their game. Hence, Rick avoids any situation where control of development is taken out of their hands.

As for the mythical development time poll, I remember when they wanted to do Fun Pimp Fridays and have an update every Friday and as we all know that turned out to be impossible. There was a lot of talk about shorter vs longer development cycles but I don't recall the actual poll or voting in it myself and I was very active back then even though I was not yet a moderator. Poll or not, I think we all know that TFP need long development cycles so its good the "vote" is perceived to have gone that way. The problem though is that people then are mad that they weren't in on that vote and that if the poll had been better advertised maybe it would have gone the other way and we would magically be getting monthly updates. That is just ridiculous. If the poll had gone the other way I'm sure TFP would have tried their best and then would have ended up apologizing and declaring that short dev cycles just don't work for them and we would be back to how it has been regardless. I just hope that everyone realizes that TFP takes 10 - 16 months per development cycle because that's what THEY need to do rather than because a few people got in on a poll and skewed it the wrong way and now TFP must do it that way because that's the way the vote went. Poppycock!

 
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As for the mythical development time poll, I remember when they wanted to do Fun Pimp Fridays and have an update every Friday and as we all know that turned out to be impossible.
As someone who just got into Star Citizen not long ago, and have been catching up on its dev history as well as following the current progress I would love if TFP followed CIG's model of weekly/monthly updates. SC shares some similarities with 7 Days when it comes to its history, with both being in dev for quite a while now, as well as some shifts in scope/scale. 7 Days has the occasional people like the OP here, while SC still has people claiming it is a scam.

But CIG has a weekly schedule where they release some narrative info, teasers, an Inside Star Citizen which is a video showing off upcoming content(usually with a dev commenting along the way), and then Star Citizen Live where devs show off their tools and how their workflow operates. Now, obviously that weekly schedule wouldn't really work for TFP as they have nowhere near the amount of employees that CIG has, so there wouldn't be enough meaningful progress made weekly to warrant video and such. But the idea would still be interesting to see. It could be similar to the dev streams they do when a new alpha is imminent, but with more devs and a bit more informative. And obviously a lot more often. Maybe once a month? Could be cool. :)

 
Mods are not solution. Rly it's not solution.

I'm playing in HL2 mod called entropy zero 2. It's soo good mod rly this mod could offical valve game because is soo good and in this same time very close with orginal HL2 spirit. But.... it's not canon so yeah. This could not exisit and hl series situation would be totaly this same. 

"noob spawn points, smell going away, item degradation, etc" well if such thing would stay in 7dtd since early alphas.... this would be much diffrent looking game and had much diffrent comunity, diffrent mods etc. That's a big diffrence.

Honestly... i think if 7DTD wasn't modable it would be much better for 7dtd - why? because in this sitaution 7dtd had to had much more content and more dlc in the future. Now we know that's they want to make diffrent type of game. so 7dtd 2  will after.... 10- 15 years in best situation. So it's hard to not be pesemestic


What nonsense.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Official_Add-ons_(Skyrim)

Did the avaliabilty of mods prevent Bethesda from producing addons? No.

And since one of your other complaints is about graphics and style: Are there mods that improve the visuals of Bethesda games or add stuff in the same style? Yes.

And since one of your other complaints is about hardcore: Are there mods that make 7D2D massively more difficult? Yes. 

And another point: 7D2D 2 won't need 10 years of development. They will not start from zero, they will most likely start with 7D2D and just add features they didn't have time for to include in 7D2D.

 
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I have to disagree, Matt. Strictly business TFP, as a company is incentivized to sell as many copies as possible. I don't have any issues with them doing what they can to make sales..  and I think it's really a wonderfully great thing that they've made 7D2D as easily modable as it is.

To make a comparison. I enjoyed Skyrim, but it doesn't offer everything I wanted in a game - in fact, it lacked a lot. Thanks to the large modding community - Which is also thanks in part to selling many copies, I was able to get the gaming experience I wanted from it. [With like 150+mods in at my last playthrough] I got harder survial aspects, harsher weather, death penalties, diseases, ect. I know all these were added because of the fans, and I'm eternally grateful for those that put hundreds of hours of their life into improving the game.. but I also felt my Bethesda deserved some of that credit for having their game designed in a way people could make it happen. [Until that last DLC which was basically - Pay us for all this fan made content. That was some bull@%$#.]
Idk if last dlc was Dragonborn or dragon heart but Dragonborn was pretty cool dlc.  Skyrim mods are cool but... that's a problem in this situation. Because because of that skyrim is still selling. Usually this would be great but... Because of that still we don't have TES 6. So that's problem - skyrim was popular because of mods while before skyrim was popular because have good gameplay and expedend lore. Now.... since 2012 nothing new about lore because devs didn't had reason to make new TES fast. So honestly - mods killed TES lore community. 

The game is not casual but you could claim the default settings are casual.  Just because someone's skill set allows them to excel while difficulty settings are maxed doesn't mean the game with those settings deserves a casual rating.  The number of people playing at max difficulty versus ones playing with more moderate settings is a pretty small ratio.  It's that way in nearly every game that doesn't have PvP as part of its core structure.


dificulty =/= hardcore. COD have one bullet difficulty and it not hardcore game because is simple. Arma 3 is hardcore game because have tons of tons diffrent mechanics, types of weapons, types of ammo, a lot of diffrent quipment, types of vehicles and more and more and more. 

hardcore mean - a lot of very complexed and complicated mechanics

Yeahhh, gonna have to strongly disagree with that one, man. Several mods make the game more challenging, and add some of the old features like smell and degradation for example.

You always mention playing mods for other games, but when it comes to 7 Days you keep repeating that mods aren't a solution. Just sounds like someone in denial. The devs more than likely won't be adding a lot of this stuff back, but plenty of modders have.
Yes. I played. HL2 - yes a lot of things were changed that supposed to be in HL2. But this is not Valve fault (long story short) because they were hacked. So i wish we would see hydra, alien assasin etc. in hl2 but just... well bad things happens.

SW bf 2 have a rly good mod called SW bf 3 legancy mod - point of this mod is recreate canceled sw bf3.

And more and more.

But why i say that mods are not solution here. Reason is simple Because this don't change fact that this game were pretty hardcore on early stage of development. If they stick this vision - 7dtd would looks very diffrent, community would be very diffrent, mods would be very diffrent that we have now. And another game would be probably hardcore too. Now another their game will be casual too.

 
What nonsense.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Official_Add-ons_(Skyrim)

Did the avaliabilty of mods prevent Bethesda from producing addons? No.

And since one of your other complaints is about graphics and style: Are there mods that improve the visuals of Bethesda games or add stuff in the same style? Yes.

And since one of your other complaints is about hardcore:Are there mods that make 7D2D massively more difficult? Yes. 

And another point: 7D2D 2 won't need 10 years of development. They will not start from zero, they will most likely start with 7D2D and just add features they didn't have time for to include in 7D2D.
Big story short- were Skyrim sold the best during released period? -  consoles. Did consols had mods in this period? no. 

"And since one of your other complaints is about graphics and style: Are there mods that improve the visuals of Bethesda games or add stuff in the same style? Yes." Well that's true - like immersive creatures , armored skeletons. a lot of armor, npc mods etc. Did 7dtd have such mods ? no. If there will be such mods in future? probably not.

"Are there mods that make 7D2D massively more difficult? Yes. " Yes. But did TFP change hardcore mechanics into casual? Yes. If this influence on playbase, types of mods, visual artstyle etc? yes.

"And another point: 7D2D 2 won't need 10 years of development. They will not start from zero, they will most likely start with 7D2D and just add features they didn't have time for to include in 7D2D." Small sec... here we go Mount and blade - 2008, Warband 2010 ( warband is very expended M&B but using this same engine most this same assets etc.), Mount and blade Bannerlord - 2020 early access 2022 final version --> 10 years. 

So  - 7DTD is very moddable so people won't buy 7dtd 2 if there only few features will be added - it has to be higher tier of quality right? But this mean time. Now if i good remember - they are working on 2 - 3 games - we don't know anything about this game so it's hard to say how big this game will be - this can be something small like 'Wicked"  or "Cult of the lamb" or big like well... 7dtd or terraria

 
game was hardcore and TFP decided to make it casual. And mods won't solve this problem.
Lmao, that's so far from the truth it's comical. Have you even played an overhaul mod?

They will not start from zero, they will most likely start with 7D2D and just add features they didn't have time for to include in 7D2D."
Yes they've said they're probably going to make a 7dtd 2. But they've also said the next game is NOT 7dtd2. They're actually working on 3 different games atm.

 
Big story short- were Skyrim sold the best during released period? -  consoles. Did consols had mods in this period? no. 


Will 7D2D be on consoles too? Yes.

You really seem to forget that you yourself put so much importance on "official" DLCs/expansions or a 7D2D 2 being better that you would surely buy it from TFP. So would I because as you said a DLC or expansion or 7D2D part 2 from TFP would automatically be canon. And it will be canon for a lot of mods as well because they probably want to use features newly introduced in such a DLC.

Just as a simple example: If TFP added a few workstations, legendary weapons and 1-2 new quest types. Would anyone buy such a DLC or expansion after the supply of new alphas had dried out after release? Certainly. Would the work to do that take more than 1 or 2 typical alphas now? Surely not. 

"And since one of your other complaints is about graphics and style: Are there mods that improve the visuals of Bethesda games or add stuff in the same style? Yes." Well that's true - like immersive creatures , armored skeletons. a lot of armor, npc mods etc. Did 7dtd have such mods ? no. If there will be such mods in future? probably not.


At the moment TFP has a lot of support for modders who add xml changes but nearly no support for graphics mods. This depends very much on what TFP adds there in the future. But I suspect steamworks support alone will already improve the situation as it allows easier copying of whatever mods the server has installed to clients. 

"Are there mods that make 7D2D massively more difficult? Yes. " Yes. But did TFP change hardcore mechanics into casual? Yes. If this influence on playbase, types of mods, visual artstyle etc? yes.


Sure, but according to your theory you yourself wouldn't be here anymore, right? (EDIT: As I haven't played anything before A15 I can't say anything about whether earlier games were more hardcore or not, I'll just assume they were for this discussion)

And had 7D2D been "casual" all the time then no harcore players would ever have played the game and stayed with it in your theory. Now at least you can assume hardcore players exist who pine for old times.

But lets look at Bethesda again, their games were never ever hardcore. Do you really want to tell me there is no hardcore mod for Skyrim or Oblivion?

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/2430

https://gamerant.com/skyrim-hardest-difficulty-mods-ranked/

Sure, anything harder than vanilla can be called hardcore even if it isn't much and in your theory we are starting at the casual bottom. I won't test them out to find out if I'm right or wrong, but lets at least agree that there will be mods for 7D2D as well that add some "hardcoreness" 

EDIT: And as Kosmic Kerman reminds me we already have harcore mods for 7D2D. You might not like those mods for other aspects (like uneven style or new magic zombies) but that doesn't change the fact that hardcore mods exist, right now.

"And another point: 7D2D 2 won't need 10 years of development. They will not start from zero, they will most likely start with 7D2D and just add features they didn't have time for to include in 7D2D." Small sec... here we go Mount and blade - 2008, Warband 2010 ( warband is very expended M&B but using this same engine most this same assets etc.), Mount and blade Bannerlord - 2020 early access 2022 final version --> 10 years. 

So  - 7DTD is very moddable so people won't buy 7dtd 2 if there only few features will be added - it has to be higher tier of quality right? But this mean time. Now if i good remember - they are working on 2 - 3 games - we don't know anything about this game so it's hard to say how big this game will be - this can be something small like 'Wicked"  or "Cult of the lamb" or big like well... 7dtd or terraria


M&B to Warband was just 2 years because they used the same engine and most assets. Voila. And did Warband sell well? While we don't know, player satisfaction with Warband seemes to be great and they released 2 DLCs for it so it can't have been a failure.

What else does your example tell us? That it can take from 2 to 10 years for another version. Sure, if TFP really thinks they need to make a new engine for 7D2D then yes, they will need a lot more than 2 years.

Higher tier of quality? Do you think that warband was made with a lower tier of quality? If not and they did warband in the same quality as Mount&Blade, why did it take them only 2 years? And why couldn't TFP do the same?

Yes, they are working on more than one game. As you probably know that is very normal to have designers switch to designing the next game while the previous game is still in production. And we know they hired new staff for some unknown game in the unreal engine, so it is not impossible but also not likely that it will influence development on 7D2D.

Whether all of this leads to less developers for 7D2D 2 we don't know, but TFP has all the cards in their hands. If they want the same team and team size on 7D2D 2, there is nothing preventing them.

 
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Older alpha were looking like typical hardcore game. If checks games from 2013-2015 you will see that... 7dtd was like hardcore MC. meal smell, food spoiling , low visibilty. and looking how another alpha looked it was like "easier 3D project zomboid in early stage". Now 7dtd is casual game becaus people wanted to make more things simpler or easier. If TFP decided stick to "hardcore" vision from this period - community of this game would be much smaller, probably diffrent mods would be created and totaly have diffrent opinion. But they decided guys who wanted to make this game easier - probably because more casual game = more players


I was just thinking about some functionality in A15 while playing earlier today  - carrying raw meat drawing zombies and unharvested carcasses drawing screamers. My understanding is that these things were not removed to the make the game "simpler" or "easier". Smell was removed because the code behind those functions was overhauled and my understanding is that there was no clean way to make them work with the new code. Fatal has repeatedly talked about how some of the underlying code was not fantastic. If the loss of zombie smell is the cost of more performant code, I think that loss is well worth the reward. Questing and sleeper zombies have, for me, made the game much more enjoyable and have increased its replayability.

As to your claim that mods cannot add complexity or make the game more "hardcore," that's ridiculous.  For example, Ravenhearst adds back many of the elements removed since A15 and adds several layers of grind and abstraction on top of those.   

 
That's wasn't my point. My point was that game was hardcore and TFP decided to make it casual. And mods won't solve this problem.


So basically what you are saying with this, is that you never played any overhaul mod. Playing War3zuk right now, day 9. I don´t go out at night. No effin way, not even close to having enough ammo and skills for that. And everything i do during the day i constantly stop doing it to look around so that i don´t get ambushed by a freaking giant radiated demolisher. It´s awesome.

 
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Lmao, that's so far from the truth it's comical. Have you even played an overhaul mod?

Yes they've said they're probably going to make a 7dtd 2. But they've also said the next game is NOT 7dtd2. They're actually working on 3 different games atm.
No i think you just don't want to agree that for example that A11 was much harder that A20

Yes. So that's why i wrote there is at least 10 years to want for 7dtd.

Will 7D2D be on consoles too? Yes.

You really seem to forget that you yourself put so much importance on "official" DLCs/expansions or a 7D2D 2 being better that you would surely buy it from TFP. So would I because as you said a DLC or expansion or 7D2D part 2 from TFP would automatically be canon. And it will be canon for a lot of mods as well because they probably want to use features newly introduced in such a DLC.

Just as a simple example: If TFP added a few workstations, legendary weapons and 1-2 new quest types. Would anyone buy such a DLC or expansion after the supply of new alphas had dried out after release? Certainly. Would the work to do that take more than 1 or 2 typical alphas now? Surely not. 
Yes. But 7dtd is "console focused"? no.

It was many years ago but still i remember that a lot of things were simplifed ( types of magic) because it was more for consoles players ( probably you remember that most multiplatforms game were much simple that Pc only games).

Ok this depends on price 10$? No.

1$ for such dlc?  yes this not to much. Well everything depends on DLC quality - HOI4 is good example ---> some of them are good some of them are.... terrible at least.

Sure, but according to your theory you yourself wouldn't be here anymore, right? (EDIT: As I haven't played anything before A15 I can't say anything about whether earlier games were more hardcore or not, I'll just assume they were for this discussion)

And had 7D2D been "casual" all the time then no harcore players would ever have played the game and stayed with it in your theory. Now at least you can assume hardcore players exist who pine for old times.

But lets look at Bethesda again, their games were never ever hardcore. Do you really want to tell me there is no hardcore mod for Skyrim or Oblivion?

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/2430

https://gamerant.com/skyrim-hardest-difficulty-mods-ranked/

Sure, anything harder than vanilla can be called hardcore even if it isn't much and in your theory we are starting at the casual bottom. I won't test them out to find out if I'm right or wrong, but lets at least agree that there will be mods for 7D2D as well that add some "hardcoreness" 

EDIT: And as Kosmic Kerman reminds me we already have harcore mods for 7D2D. You might not like those mods for other aspects (like uneven style or new magic zombies) but that doesn't change the fact that hardcore mods exist, right now.
A lot of people likes to play both types of game right? so i think hardcore players at least some of them would to play in 7DTD but it would be like "so guys we made optimal fabric in factorio. Maybe now few hours in 7dtd to releax?" But probably woudn't write that 7dtd should be hardcore etc. maybe someone will just start topic : "Hey devs : maybe  Project zomboid in 3D in future" and that's all. 

Mistake - daggerfall were pretty hardcore. And is considered as one of the most hard RPG but.... in this same time of the most bugged like a vampire the maquerade.

"Sure, anything harder than vanilla can be called hardcore even if it isn't much and in your theory we are starting at the casual bottom. I won't test them out to find out if I'm right or wrong, but lets at least agree that there will be mods for 7D2D as well that add some "hardcoreness" " - my friend was playing with some hardcore mods and were good. nothing to complain. If i good remember some of them were "added" later as offical option into skyrim.

"EDIT: And as Kosmic Kerman reminds me we already have harcore mods for 7D2D. You might not like those mods for other aspects (like uneven style or new magic zombies) but that doesn't change the fact that hardcore mods exist, right now." Harder don't mean hardcore this is a little bit diffrent - if you add zombie with 100000 hp it will be hard but not hardcore -if you add vehicles with 20 diffrent parts --> this would be hardcore

M&B to Warband was just 2 years because they used the same engine and most assets. Voila. And did Warband sell well? While we don't know, player satisfaction with Warband seemes to be great and they released 2 DLCs for it so it can't have been a failure.

What else does your example tell us? That it can take from 2 to 10 years for another version. Sure, if TFP really thinks they need to make a new engine for 7D2D then yes, they will need a lot more than 2 years.

Higher tier of quality? Do you think that warband was made with a lower tier of quality? If not and they did warband in the same quality as Mount&Blade, why did it take them only 2 years? And why couldn't TFP do the same?

Yes, they are working on more than one game. As you probably know that is very normal to have designers switch to designing the next game while the previous game is still in production. And we know they hired new staff for some unknown game in the unreal engine, so it is not impossible but also not likely that it will influence development on 7D2D.

Whether all of this leads to less developers for 7D2D 2 we don't know, but TFP has all the cards in their hands. If they want the same team and team size on 7D2D 2, there is nothing preventing them.
Yep... well it was 2010 so... i bought witcher and witcher enchanted edition so... yes?

About DLC --> wrong there is more of them.  Mount and blade with fire and sword but became comercial project like CS . While "pirates"dlc... hard to say - i found serval let say not totaly comfirmed information. but naopleon and viking sold pretty bad if i good remember .

Mount and blade was made in "pre Early access" period. So - it was a way to earn enough money to make more... 1.5 version. - i think if this game would be created now ,warband would be just dlc.  This was period when not everyone have internet and kickstarted wasn't popular. So yeah this was totaly normal. This same thing was with few diffrent games from this period.

So why TFP  can't do this same? because well mods are now popular - this is not 2010 anymore where not everyone had internet. 

About last one - i used 3 years per one 1 game because honestly this is hard to say how big will be new games so -->3 games X 3 years = 9 years 

So basically what you are saying with this, is that you never played any overhaul mod. Playing War3zuk right now, day 9. I don´t go out at night. No effin way, not even close to having enough ammo and skills for that. And everything i do during the day i constantly stop doing it to look around so that i don´t get ambushed by a freaking giant radiated demolisher. It´s awesome.


Mods don't solve this problem because problem was totaly change of vision.  I saw gameplays , i bought hardcore game but then it was change into casual game. That's what i mean.

 
I can't follow your line of argument. First you say that 7dtd isn't "hardcore" enough and this can't be fixed by mods. Now you seem to acknowledge that there are "hardcore" mods.  How do you square this circle?  Is your argument that the Devs don't share your vision of what the game should be?  And what exactly is it that you want?

 
I can't follow your line of argument. First you say that 7dtd isn't "hardcore" enough and this can't be fixed by mods. Now you seem to acknowledge that there are "hardcore" mods.  How do you square this circle?  Is your argument that the Devs don't share your vision of what the game should be?  And what exactly is it that you want?
I want when they annouced new game say if they target is make casual or hardcore game, with darker setting or more positive. that's what i want to know exactly what to expect

 
You get that when you don't buy into EA.
Somehow i bought bannerlord 2 , medieval dynasty , call to arms and... from begining this game were very similiar ( i mean no simpliciations just add new stuff, balance and expending existing ones) to final version

 
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