PC Are there any plans on making stealth actually stealth?

[hiemfire]

Sure, there's some unpleasant edge cases there, it could be improved by having roughly two separate sound sources - player and target location. But on the list of things to change, I'd rate that quite low on urgency...

If it causes the volumes to function other than intended I could see it getting kicked up in priority. Though I can also see the volumes possibly being designed to abuse sounds triggered by player action originating only from the player and a change to that getting massive pushback from the POI designers too so...

 

[theFlu]

If it causes the volumes to function other than intended

That's fair, but also somewhat of a big if. The sounds are meant to attract zeds to the player, and for that they work pretty well. Intentional distractions (thrown stones) is a separate game mechanic, which.. I haven't even really tested against sleepers, but I assume is working somehow.

The closet door breaking issue is the thing that could use a fix.. but tell me how many arrows it takes to break the flimsiest closet door in your house and guess if the resulting noise is my biggest gripe with the mechanic..

 

[hiemfire]

Intentional distractions (thrown stones) is a separate game mechanic, which.. I haven't even really tested against sleepers, but I assume is working somehow.

If they're only active/alert and not targeted on the player than the stones and snowballs should be working the same way they do with the non-sleepers encountered outside of the POIs.

The closet door breaking issue is the thing that could use a fix.. but tell me how many arrows it takes to break the flimsiest closet door in your house and guess if the resulting noise is my biggest gripe with the mechanic..

I would not have an issue with them removing the instant break plates from the game completely. I doubt they will since a boatload of their ambush traps rely on them to hide the ambushers.

 

[Roland]

When did they change the noise source to be the impact/breaking item location and not the player other than with tossed stones and snowballs?

It doesn't really matter as long as the player moves from where they made the noise. It has been like this forever. You've been able to go out at night and shoot a gun and watch nearby zombies run toward you for years now. If you stay there the zombies will attack. If you move a few blocks over crouched, the zombies won't see you and stop their movement at the precise spot that you were standing when you shot. The noise source was the player but since the player moved, the place the zombie goes to is the last location it detected the player.

btw....How do you wake up Heimfire?

Answer: Talk about stealth...

If they're only active/alert and not targeted on the player than the stones and snowballs should be working the same way they do with the non-sleepers encountered outside of the POIs.

Zombies will not interrupt running to a spot in order to follow another source. So if you throw a stone north and then another west they will run all the way north and then run west rather than stopping running north immediately to go west. Similarly, if the zombies wake up because they heard a noise but are not detecting the player, you can throw a rock but they will ignore it until they complete their investigation of the first noise. But if you stay undetected you will see them walk to where the noise that triggered them is and then immediately turn and walk to where the rock landed. For zombies that wake up due to an automatic trigger such as those that fall out of the ceiling, if you throw a rock immediately they will go to the rock because they are not actively investigating anything yet. If a zombie wakes up and detects the player immediately then it will not go for the rock at all until the timer runs out and the player is undetected once again.

 

[theFlu]

Zombies will not interrupt running to a spot in order to follow another source. So if you throw a stone north and then another west they will run all the way north and then run west rather than stopping running north immediately to go west. Similarly, if the zombies wake up because they heard a noise but are not detecting the player, you can throw a rock but they will ignore it until they complete their investigation of the first noise. But if you stay undetected you will see them walk to where the noise that triggered them is and then immediately turn and walk to where the rock landed. For zombies that wake up due to an automatic trigger such as those that fall out of the ceiling, if you throw a rock immediately they will go to the rock because they are not actively investigating anything yet. If a zombie wakes up and detects the player immediately then it will not go for the rock at all until the timer runs out and the player is undetected once again.

Darnit man, I smell a long test session in my near future... all of that sounds reasonable, but half of that makes me think "that's not exactly right" and that bit:

For zombies that wake up due to an automatic trigger such as those that fall out of the ceiling, if you throw a rock immediately they will go to the rock because they are not actively investigating anything yet.

makes me think you're actively trying to get some zeds fed..

 

[Roland]

makes me think you're actively trying to get some zeds fed..

I'm not channeling Trolland at the moment. He sleeps....

Here's another behavior I've noticed. Zombies can be aggroed but not specifically targeting the player. You can test this when inside a POI exploring and zombies are pounding on the walls to get in. You might think that they are targeting you and actively working to get to you as during bloodmoon. But if you can get to a window and unseen toss a rock out, they will turn away from pounding the walls to go to where the rock lands. They are aggroed but are not targeting you. This is the function of the breadcrumb system where they have points of interest that they want to investigate which after getting to that point of interest they might go to another point of interest within their range until they either run out of breadcrumbs or they intersect paths with you. 

I'm 99% sure that sleepers are governed by the same rules. So they can often awake aggroed and if bad luck (lots of light) is with you they can instantly target you. But if you escape their initial notice they will still be aggroed and start breadcrumbing towards interesting locations to them which will also lead them to you if you cannot get into shadows or out of their view. As you move if you "drop a new breadcrumb" they will then go to that and so appear to be following the player even if the player is not targeted specifically yet. A thrown rock will become a VERY interesting breadcrumb to them once they've reached their current breadcrumb waypoint.

I...um...pretty much always have a stack of rocks on my belt. It's pretty fun.

 

[theFlu]

All right, did some tests.. I seem to have confirmed at least some of my original bias, so, for whatever that's worth, I'll break it down. I essentially tested separate sections that seemed to form suitable claims to test against, so the split is what I tested:

Zombies will not interrupt running to a spot in order to follow another source. So if you throw a stone north and then another west they will run all the way north and then run west rather than stopping running north immediately to go west.

Normal city outdoors spawns. Hide in a suitable corner, able to break line of sight at will. 5/5 From the shadows.
Throw a rock nearby, get zeds to move there (ApproachDistraction).

While they're moving, throw another rock. Doesn't seem to have any effect.

Keep tossing pairs for a while with similar results.

Eventually it looks like: as long as the zed is still approaching the first distraction as the later one lands, they will completely ignore the later one. Once they've started moving again after reaching the first, they're willing to chase a new one.

(AI point of view, they spend a second or two in a stand&look state before "Wander", only at "Wander" was I able to get them to recognize another stone)

Similarly, if the zombies wake up because they heard a noise but are not detecting the player, you can throw a rock but they will ignore it until they complete their investigation of the first noise. But if you stay undetected you will see them walk to where the noise that triggered them is and then immediately turn and walk to where the rock landed.

Normal city outdoors spawns. Hide in a corner, no line of sight. 5/5 from the shadows.
Fire a magnum, observe AI state change to "ApproachSpot"; zed starts moving in.

Straight away toss a rock, observe change of state to "ApproachDistraction", zed changes direction.

As it reaches distraction, state change to "ApproachSpot" and it moves back in towards the player.

In simpler terms, a stone distraction will override a normie zed looking for a gunshot.

Sleeper from an attack volume; activated by moving into the volume (not triggered, just activated to normal sleeper function)
Wake up with a gunshot, from out of line of sight. => AI ApproachSpot
Throw rock => AI ApproachDistraction -> reach rock -> back to ApproachSpot

In short, pretty identical to the street spawns.

For zombies that wake up due to an automatic trigger such as those that fall out of the ceiling, if you throw a rock immediately they will go to the rock because they are not actively investigating anything yet.

I'm not entirely sure what these are; the ones that don't get up and move won't fall through ceilings. The ones that do so triggered by an attack volume are automatically after a player from the get go. The only ones that could drop through a ceiling without a target are ones woken up by noise.

Sleeper from an attack volume, triggered to the dreaded auto-agro state by crossing the volume boundary without stealthing:
AI task as ApproachAndAttackTarget,name
Throw rock => no change in AI task
Throw all the rocks => no change in AI task
Zed sees me - restealth (=> ApproachSpot) - throw rock => ApproachDistraction => ApproachSpot

In descriptive form: the attack-volume triggered zeds are absolutely relentless until they see you and get into a normal agro state. Or their timer runs out.

For a dropper test: Sleepers at a dishong tower roof drop (sadly an attack volume, but I don't think they're different to regular sleepers beyond the initial trigger possibility)
Behaved as expected; when auto-agroed, relentless, when not, my distraction ability was dependent on their visual tracking (line of sight plus stealth state). It is quite difficult to know if they ever saw you, but that doesn't matter as long as they don't see you while you distract them (unless auto-agroed)

If a zombie wakes up and detects the player immediately then it will not go for the rock at all until the timer runs out and the player is undetected once again.

Here I disagree with the timer; that applies to "auto-agro", the state from an attack volume; but you can drop regular agro by line of sight / stealth at any time.

I'm not channeling Trolland at the moment. He sleeps....

I may have woken a few of his friends...

Here's another behavior I've noticed. Zombies can be aggroed but not specifically targeting the player. You can test this when inside a POI exploring and zombies are pounding on the walls to get in. You might think that they are targeting you and actively working to get to you as during bloodmoon. But if you can get to a window and unseen toss a rock out, they will turn away from pounding the walls to go to where the rock lands.

I saw this plenty while testing, some of the ApproachDistraction zeds ended up beating on walls for a long time. I assume the same goes for zeds investigating a player noise, as long as they have no easier path to the spot they're interested about. I wouldn't call that agro, in my head agro requires a player target, preferably a tank; but that's probably a semantic issue due to my WoW days..

I'm 99% sure that sleepers are governed by the same rules. So they can often awake aggroed and if bad luck (lots of light) is with you they can instantly target you. But if you escape their initial notice they will still be aggroed and start breadcrumbing towards interesting locations to them which will also lead them to you if you cannot get into shadows or out of their view. As you move if you "drop a new breadcrumb" they will then go to that and so appear to be following the player even if the player is not targeted specifically yet. A thrown rock will become a VERY interesting breadcrumb to them once they've reached their current breadcrumb waypoint.

This seems pretty accurate (Although the rock will take priority over the player noises)

I...um...pretty much always have a stack of rocks on my belt. It's pretty fun.

Confirmed. Additional fun can be found by having suitable boom-booms equipped in the next toolbelt slot.

 

[meganoth]

I'll give it a try: they were flirting for months before the fall... once the nukes started dropping, they snuck up into the ceiling to cuddle for a bit. For comfort under the impending doom, mostly. Being janitors they were fully aware of the poor structural properties of the ceiling, so they managed to spread their weight fine up there. Little did they know that whoever did the nuking, also deployed some neutron bombs in the area; closest of such wasn't enough to properly vaporize them, merely ended them both and their cuddle session simultaneously, leaving no physical evidence to their demise. The virus took hold in their lightly-dehydrated bodies and kept taking over until poor Kage just happened to walk under them just as they stood up with their lack of critical thinking; they both leaned into the same pieces of ceiling and fell down, ready to devour some delicious brain.

I was not explaining how the zombies got in there! I was just telling you how getting out can be explained. I'll also won't explain how you with a stone axe or the zombies can crack steel or you can lift a few 1000 tons or anything else.

For the "what would happen mechanically if Kage just snuck away", there's some choices:

1) the zeds were woken by the attack volume check (I find this likely):

- just sneaking away, the zeds would've followed him around any corner he'd run for 20 secs or so (assuming the time change was implemented by now)

- had he revealed himself to them and then broken line of sight and re-crouched, the zeds would probably wander to the spot he re-crouched at

2) the zeds were woken by sound/vision check as per normal stealth

- either just sneaking away or doing the "purposeful reveal", the zeds would likely stop at the corner he disappears at

There is a difference between theory and experiment. We talked about the theory already for 3 pages, I could have made that list above myself. You posted a video to show the reality but it doesn't tell us much besides that 4/5 stealth in a lit corridor and very close to zombies is not enough (which just puts a number on something we already know). It doesn't say anything about the questions that seem more interesting (to me)

PS: But I see you rectified this later with actual experiments. Thanks for that

The downgrading to "investigate-mode" doesn't seem completely predictable, so the zeds may follow for a while regardless.

The previous room is pretty decent for a good LoS maneuver by dropping down the stairs, so, the whole thing seems escapable. Of course, as he demonstrated, there was no need for any of that.

All right, did some tests.. I seem to have confirmed at least some of my original bias, so, for whatever that's worth, I'll break it down. I essentially tested separate sections that seemed to form suitable claims to test against, so the split is what I tested:

Normal city outdoors spawns. Hide in a suitable corner, able to break line of sight at will. 5/5 From the shadows.
Throw a rock nearby, get zeds to move there (ApproachDistraction).

While they're moving, throw another rock. Doesn't seem to have any effect.

Keep tossing pairs for a while with similar results.

Eventually it looks like: as long as the zed is still approaching the first distraction as the later one lands, they will completely ignore the later one. Once they've started moving again after reaching the first, they're willing to chase a new one.

(AI point of view, they spend a second or two in a stand&look state before "Wander", only at "Wander" was I able to get them to recognize another stone)

Normal city outdoors spawns. Hide in a corner, no line of sight. 5/5 from the shadows.
Fire a magnum, observe AI state change to "ApproachSpot"; zed starts moving in.

Straight away toss a rock, observe change of state to "ApproachDistraction", zed changes direction.

As it reaches distraction, state change to "ApproachSpot" and it moves back in towards the player.

In simpler terms, a stone distraction will override a normie zed looking for a gunshot.

Sleeper from an attack volume; activated by moving into the volume (not triggered, just activated to normal sleeper function)
Wake up with a gunshot, from out of line of sight. => AI ApproachSpot
Throw rock => AI ApproachDistraction -> reach rock -> back to ApproachSpot

In short, pretty identical to the street spawns.

I'm not entirely sure what these are; the ones that don't get up and move won't fall through ceilings. The ones that do so triggered by an attack volume are automatically after a player from the get go. The only ones that could drop through a ceiling without a target are ones woken up by noise.

Sleeper from an attack volume, triggered to the dreaded auto-agro state by crossing the volume boundary without stealthing:
AI task as ApproachAndAttackTarget,name
Throw rock => no change in AI task
Throw all the rocks => no change in AI task
Zed sees me - restealth (=> ApproachSpot) - throw rock => ApproachDistraction => ApproachSpot

In descriptive form: the attack-volume triggered zeds are absolutely relentless until they see you and get into a normal agro state. Or their timer runs out.

For a dropper test: Sleepers at a dishong tower roof drop (sadly an attack volume, but I don't think they're different to regular sleepers beyond the initial trigger possibility)
Behaved as expected; when auto-agroed, relentless, when not, my distraction ability was dependent on their visual tracking (line of sight plus stealth state). It is quite difficult to know if they ever saw you, but that doesn't matter as long as they don't see you while you distract them (unless auto-agroed)

Here I disagree with the timer; that applies to "auto-agro", the state from an attack volume; but you can drop regular agro by line of sight / stealth at any time.

I may have woken a few of his friends...

I saw this plenty while testing, some of the ApproachDistraction zeds ended up beating on walls for a long time. I assume the same goes for zeds investigating a player noise, as long as they have no easier path to the spot they're interested about. I wouldn't call that agro, in my head agro requires a player target, preferably a tank; but that's probably a semantic issue due to my WoW days..

This seems pretty accurate (Although the rock will take priority over the player noises)

Confirmed. Additional fun can be found by having suitable boom-booms equipped in the next toolbelt slot.

Are you saying that if you throw a stone when they try to approach your last known location with ApproachSpot, they will investigate the stone but afterwards go back to the same last know location they initially approached? (Or is the second ApproachSpot somewhere else?)

If that is true it seems somehow different from my experiments in A19. When I threw a stone and the zombie went to the stone it would stay there afterwards and listened again.

 

[Roland]

Eventually it looks like: as long as the zed is still approaching the first distraction as the later one lands, they will completely ignore the later one. Once they've started moving again after reaching the first, they're willing to chase a new one.

I guess I must have perceived that wrong. I sometimes try and get zeds to move farther in a particular direction so I'll throw a rock and then throw another even farther and I thought I was throwing the second before they reached the first but perhaps not. I do know that when they are pounding on a house and you distract them by throwing a rock they will often go to the rock and then turn and come back to pounding on the house again. If I throw another they will turn and go for that rock before fully returning to the house but will then turn to come back to the house so sometimes it seems there is some memory that the thrown rock doesn't erase.

 

[Boidster]

If the noise a) reaches the zombie and b) is above the hearing threshold of the zombie, it will go investigate the noise (but not necessarily target you!).

When did they change the noise source to be the impact/breaking item location and not the player other than with tossed stones and snowballs?

Sorry, "go investigate the noise" wasn't meant to imply any particular source and "not necessarily target you" is using the specific game definition of "target", which is "Z is aggro'd on you". You're right of course that other than stones and snowballs, all noises of interest in this context (mainly weapons fire) originate from the player and it certainly will appear like the Z is "targeting" you even if it is just moving towards the spot where you are standing.

 

[hiemfire]

btw....How do you wake up Heimfire?

Answer: Talk about stealth...

 More like me reading through a couple of threads while lurking, took a break from butting heads over a game I can't load up and test due to hardware issues, and coming across what might have been a mechanic tweak. You guys have bantered around about stealth a few times since I decided to take a break back in Feb/Mar.

Sorry, "go investigate the noise" wasn't meant to imply any particular source and "not necessarily target you" is using the specific game definition of "target", which is "Z is aggro'd on you". You're right of course that other than stones and snowballs, all noises of interest in this context (mainly weapons fire) originate from the player and it certainly will appear like the Z is "targeting" you even if it is just moving towards the spot where you are standing.

No apology needed.  I probably just misread.

 

[Boidster]

Are you saying that if you throw a stone when they try to approach your last known location with ApproachSpot, they will investigate the stone but afterwards go back to the same last know location they initially approached? (Or is the second ApproachSpot somewhere else?)

Yup. Each AI entity has a TaskList which is continually checked with this simplified logic:

For each Task in MyTaskList

  Is this the best task for me?

     YES = Keep on keepin' on

     NO = STAAAAHP DOIN' THAT

Once the "best" task is complete, the next-best will become that Z's to-do item. Timeouts and restrictions apply.

 

[Roland]

 More like me reading through a couple of threads while lurking, took a break from butting heads over a game I can't load up and test due to hardware issues, and coming across what might have been a mechanic tweak. You guys have bantered around about stealth a few times since I decided to take a break back in Feb/Mar.

I noticed your absence.   Glad to read that you are still lurking about and I hope you can get your hardware issues sorted soon!

 

[theFlu]

I was not explaining how the zombies got in there! I was just telling you how getting out can be explained.

I know; but my version explained both, so it's clearly the superior one, no? Or just a joke ...

There is a difference between theory and experiment.

I think the old joke is applicable (maybe backwards) in this case; "What's the difference between theory and practice? In theory, there isn't one. In practice, there is."

In the Kage-case, if you're looking to (re-)stealth, there is a combination of theoretical situations. The practical solution to one of them works for all of the theoretical cases. The solution(s) for the other cases have a possibility for failure when applied to a mismatching case. So in practice, you take the option that works for all cases - make sure the zeds see you before hiding.

Re: posting the video; it was a clip published within a day, I posted it to call foul to the setup as it matched "1 to 2 zeds within close proximity", and I had promised to call foul on such. It wasn't meant to be a great sample, just a real recent one..

PS: But I see you rectified this later with actual experiments. Thanks for that

I .. did? How did I miss That? Ok, you're welcome..

Are you saying that if you throw a stone when they try to approach your last known location with ApproachSpot, they will investigate the stone but afterwards go back to the same last know location they initially approached? (Or is the second ApproachSpot somewhere else?)

Yes; they'll come after your gunshot location after running for the stone.

If that is true it seems somehow different from my experiments in A19. When I threw a stone and the zombie went to the stone it would stay there afterwards and listened again.

I guess that could be a timing issue; they probably lost interest of the original sound at some point. I didn't spend a Lot of time testing each case, so I didn't run into many such things. The default seemed to be that they would swap back to gun sounds after stone-sounds.

I guess I must have perceived that wrong. I sometimes try and get zeds to move farther in a particular direction so I'll throw a rock and then throw another even farther and I thought I was throwing the second before they reached the first but perhaps not.

I can't blame you, it wasn't that easy to read the zeds even in daylight with the AI tasks visible, especially when there were several at once. Stones are cheap, just keep tossing ..

If I throw another they will turn and go for that rock before fully returning to the house but will then turn to come back to the house so sometimes it seems there is some memory that the thrown rock doesn't erase.

Next time you feel safe to, throw one inside first, one they can't reach. Then throw another outside.. if I did my tests right, they'll keep beating on the wall going after the first rock until they lose interest entirely - or manage to break the wall. How's that for an exit-on-demand

 

[theFlu]

Kage's misadventures continue.. I'm in no way whining about this one, this is clearly going to get changed; but I found it hilarious enough to post here

(hiding the preview, and I guess it's a Tier IV POI spoiler as well)


Spoiler

 

[Roland]

Yeah that is pretty bad. The volume needs to be extended vertically so that they spawn as you are coming up the stairs. This is the same problem as when you fall through a false floor and the zombies below don't spawn until you fall into the volume because it isn't extended vertically to include the room from where you fall. @Laz Man should see this one.

 

[Laz Man]

Yeah that is pretty bad. The volume needs to be extended vertically so that they spawn as you are coming up the stairs. This is the same problem as when you fall through a false floor and the zombies below don't spawn until you fall into the volume because it isn't extended vertically to include the room from where you fall. @Laz Man should see this one.

Thanks for the heads up guys.  There are some limitations to the distance sleeper spawns start spawning in so not sure if this particular setup can be fixed easily.  I will pass this observation along to the designer of this POI to review.

 

[Darthjake]

Thanks for the heads up guys.  There are some limitations to the distance sleeper spawns start spawning in so not sure if this particular setup can be fixed easily.  I will pass this observation along to the designer of this POI to review.

One of the POI's I've encountered this personally is the Working Stiffs after you get to the top, and drop through the hole to navigate through the tiles and kill the Z's at the end only to be jumped by a janitor that wasn't there when I dropped down into the office to loot that last box.

 

[Boidster]

1) Add craftable Teleport Module to the game; allows one-time teleportation to any spot within 10m, great for quick escapes or...ahem...showing up in unexpected places

2) Give all sleeper zombies a visible (expended/broken) Teleport Module (supplied by The Duke?)

Problem solved.

 

[No_Name_Idea]

1) Add craftable Teleport Module to the game; allows one-time teleportation to any spot within 10m, great for quick escapes or...ahem...showing up in unexpected places

2) Give all sleeper zombies a visible (expended/broken) Teleport Module (supplied by The Duke?)

Please don't even give them ideas like that