PC Are there any plans on making stealth actually stealth?

[Deceptive Pastry]

If you cross a sleeper threshold, #1 is compared to all zombies' vision in the sleeper volume. Line-of-sight is ignored and that is arguably a Bad Thing, for sure! IIRC faatal said [or maybe it was a comment in the code] that this mechanic is a temporary stop-gap to get the system mostly working). But in any case there is no RNG component to "do I wake up the sleepers". There are some volumes (though I think it is more rare than players believe) which will always wake up when the player enters. "Scripted fights" if you want.

I don't remember if it was described as doing a stealth check factoring your current stealth skill, or if that was a mechanic they were talking about wanting to add. I have seen that how well lit you are at the moment you cross the threshold determines if they wake. So you can do silly things like build wood blocks over your head before you walk into a room to lower your light level. Which is really non-sensical. Line of sight should not be removed from an equation that involves checking if you can be seen. It also never seems to be just a couple sleepers waking up in the room, so I don't know if it's just checking the zombie with the best hearing, or if there's just not a huge variance in hearing levels.

Part of the problem is tying both sound and light level into one "visibility" meter. So you get nonsensical things like zombies "hearing" you through walls and waking up because you're underneath a light. At least it seems that way, if they're just ignoring line of sight. Sounds should only wake and/or draw zombies toward that location, light level should be totally separate and only for line of sight checks.

 

[meganoth]

Yep. And once I got into the code it was clear that it is only light level (that is, light falling on the player) vs. the zombie's detection range (line-of-sight be damned) that determined whether sleepers wake up (with auto-targeting depending on crouching/not-crouching, and player's skill if crouched). Noise plays no role. Once they're awake, of course, noise plays a role. The stealth logger shows the light level and detection and all of that, for anyone interested.

Are you talking here about the volume trigger or the continuous detection done by "active" zombies as well?

If it is only about the volume trigger, thats okay. Once active the zombies will be scanning for noise in their normal routine

 

[theFlu]

Have a very small room with only 1 or 2 zombies and them ALL waking up means just those 1 or 2, nothing extraordinary.

I'll still call foul. Or at least silly ... (Kage has 4/5 skills at that point)

 

[Roland]

I’m going to say this one more time because it is important and some seem to not be grokking it. 
 

Zombies are not intended to always be asleep when they are encountered by the player. Zombies “waking up” are not necessarily linked to stealth. Some are always going to wake up because that is the script for them when they encounter the player— to be active. 
 

In every other stealth game you are not facing and stealthing against 100% unconscious enemies. In fact, they are rarely unconscious in those games and are often walking through a sentry routine or overwatching a position. 
 

To say that zombies should remain asleep unless awoken by a noise the player made shows a misunderstanding of the main purpose of the sleeper volume spawn mechanic. It is not to gift wrap immobile unconscious targets. It is to set up a room with zombies just before the player gets there in a way that prevents them from wrecking the room or wandering away. Some of those zombies are meant to stay asleep but some of them are meant to be awake.  Just like in every other stealth game you have to stealth vs awake enemies sometimes. 
 

Perhaps there needs to be work done on the timing and maybe new solutions will be necessary (such as the “wandering sleepers” mentioned in the past) so that enemies can spawn in already awake and not waking up in view of the player.  But in the meantime, what we have is a mechanism for the player to confront mobile awake zombies (which you can in many cases still stealth). The change from sleeping to awake is not always due to a failed stealth action. 

 

[meganoth]

44 minutes ago, theFlu said:



I'll still call foul. Or at least silly ... (Kage has 4/5 skills at that point)

Sadly this doesn't show whether they would have zeroed in on Kage or just stumbled to his last location if he sneaked back. He immediately left stealth and attacked them

And please notice the light level. Whether it is a good change can be argued but sneaking in daylight or a well lit corridor is a lot harder and actually more realistic than before. I don't care about realism, but when you say silly, how silly would it be if those zombies did not see the player in this small and illuminated corridor?

 

[Deceptive Pastry]

I’m going to say this one more time because it is important and some seem to not be grokking it. 
 

Zombies are not intended to always be asleep when they are encountered by the player. Zombies “waking up” are not necessarily linked to stealth. Some are always going to wake up because that is the script for them when they encounter the player— to be active. 
 

In every other stealth game you are not facing and stealthing against 100% unconscious enemies. In fact, they are rarely unconscious in those games and are often walking through a sentry routine or overwatching a position.

You say this and that would be fine, but in practice, this is not what we have in-game. Zombies that are just idly walking/patrolling around a house. What we have is:

• Zombies hidden in nonsensical places like drop ceilings/drywall that BURST OUT at you despite making no noise
  
• Zombies that have been in closets for weeks/months magically deciding to break out the moment you enter the volume
  
• The opposite of your scenario, which is zombies that don't wake up, being hidden around corners/objects and in some cases not able to be hit without getting close enough to wake them.
  
• Zombies that all seem to home in on you when crossing the threshold (I know they aren't aggroed to you immediately, but they still seem to move toward the location you entered, as if you had made a noise, instead of just idly wandering)
  

If the sleeper system is supposed to just be a way to deliver awake idle zombies while saving resources, it doesn't feel that way. It doesn't feel like I'm entering a house where zombies are roaming. It feels rooms are waking up and looking for me the moment I enter, even if I'm not doing anything that should make my presence known.

 

[No_Name_Idea]

Sadly this doesn't show whether they would have zeroed in on Kage or just stumbled to his last location if he sneaked back. He immediately left stealth and attacked them

I think it's a bit silly to expect a player who encounters a scenerio like that to be like "yeah, I'll chill for a bit and see if they're going to rush me down". I'm not saying that you do but I assume some people here might have that kind of opinion. Maybe it's just me but whenever I encounter something like this, you best believe I'm pulling out a shotgun.
 

If the sleeper system is supposed to just be a way to deliver awake idle zombies while saving resources, it doesn't feel that way. It doesn't feel like I'm entering a house where zombies are roaming. It feels rooms are waking up and looking for me the moment I enter, even if I'm not doing anything that should make my presence known.

This.

 

[theFlu]

I don't care about realism, but when you say silly, how silly would it be if those zombies did not see the player in this small and illuminated corridor?

Through the solid ceiling perfectly capable of carrying their weight until the exact moment they see someone. Various level between ludicrous and ridiculous tbh. I get that it's a game and have accepted the nonsense will be permanent, but it doesn't make it any less nonsense ... Foul!

 

[meganoth]

I think it's a bit silly to expect a player who encounters a scenerio like that to be like "yeah, I'll chill for a bit and see if they're going to rush me down". I'm not saying that you do but I assume some people here might have that kind of opinion. Maybe it's just me but whenever I encounter something like this, you best believe I'm pulling out a shotgun.
 

When I play AGI/stealth I consider myself a lightly armored guy who's greatest strengths are speed and stealth. So unless I think I can handle them right there with bow, knife or silenced gun I will strategically withdraw (or in other words run or slither away like a coward). Ok, sometimes I will draw the big guns too, especially if I don't expect to draw more zombies by loud shooting.

But my reply to theFlu was more about the fact that the video doesn't really give me more information, at least not the info I'm most interested in

 

[Boidster]

I don't remember if it was described as doing a stealth check factoring your current stealth skill, or if that was a mechanic they were talking about wanting to add. I have seen that how well lit you are at the moment you cross the threshold determines if they wake. So you can do silly things like build wood blocks over your head before you walk into a room to lower your light level. Which is really non-sensical. Line of sight should not be removed from an equation that involves checking if you can be seen. It also never seems to be just a couple sleepers waking up in the room, so I don't know if it's just checking the zombie with the best hearing, or if there's just not a huge variance in hearing levels.

Part of the problem is tying both sound and light level into one "visibility" meter. So you get nonsensical things like zombies "hearing" you through walls and waking up because you're underneath a light. At least it seems that way, if they're just ignoring line of sight. Sounds should only wake and/or draw zombies toward that location, light level should be totally separate and only for line of sight checks.

Agree that is is a little silly. The zombies' hearing does not enter into it, though, only their visual range (which...I mean...they're ASLEEP but whatever). And it's only your illumination vs. their vision that is checked. (To be clear I am only talking about an "Attack" volume - type 2 in the xml - and a crouched player.)

I'm okay with the combined stealth meter, but it is useless (and not used) for the Attack-volume wakey-wakey check. So it's pretty deceptive in that situation. I hope they improve it somehow, but as I understand it they want these Attack-type sleeper volumes to be pretty touchy when a player enters them. This "can I see you and never mind about line of sight" thing is specific to attack-type sleepers. And so they're...touchy. Other sleepers and normal zombies use the normal stealth rules.

Are you talking here about the volume trigger or the continuous detection done by "active" zombies as well?

If it is only about the volume trigger, thats okay. Once active the zombies will be scanning for noise in their normal routine

Yes, sorry, that is what I meant when I said:

it is only light level ... that determined whether sleepers wake up ... Once they're awake, of course, noise plays a role.

I should have said "whether sleepers wake up when you cross into a volume" perhaps.

 

[meganoth]

Through the solid ceiling perfectly capable of carrying their weight until the exact moment they see someone. Various level between ludicrous and ridiculous tbh. I get that it's a game and have accepted the nonsense will be permanent, but it doesn't make it any less nonsense ... Foul!

Can be explained if needed: If their hiding place is lower than their height and they sit there until waking up then just standing up will put a lot more pressure on their foothold than their weight alone. We know Zombies are strong.

Even if their hiding place has room above they just need to attack their foothold with the same zeal they cut through concrete and steal and it surely will be gone in one hit

 

[theFlu]

Can be explained if needed

I'll give it a try: they were flirting for months before the fall... once the nukes started dropping, they snuck up into the ceiling to cuddle for a bit. For comfort under the impending doom, mostly. Being janitors they were fully aware of the poor structural properties of the ceiling, so they managed to spread their weight fine up there. Little did they know that whoever did the nuking, also deployed some neutron bombs in the area; closest of such wasn't enough to properly vaporize them, merely ended them both and their cuddle session simultaneously, leaving no physical evidence to their demise. The virus took hold in their lightly-dehydrated bodies and kept taking over until poor Kage just happened to walk under them just as they stood up with their lack of critical thinking; they both leaned into the same pieces of ceiling and fell down, ready to devour some delicious brain.

For the "what would happen mechanically if Kage just snuck away", there's some choices:

1) the zeds were woken by the attack volume check (I find this likely):

- just sneaking away, the zeds would've followed him around any corner he'd run for 20 secs or so (assuming the time change was implemented by now)

- had he revealed himself to them and then broken line of sight and re-crouched, the zeds would probably wander to the spot he re-crouched at

2) the zeds were woken by sound/vision check as per normal stealth

- either just sneaking away or doing the "purposeful reveal", the zeds would likely stop at the corner he disappears at

The downgrading to "investigate-mode" doesn't seem completely predictable, so the zeds may follow for a while regardless.

The previous room is pretty decent for a good LoS maneuver by dropping down the stairs, so, the whole thing seems escapable. Of course, as he demonstrated, there was no need for any of that.

 

[Roland]

You say this and that would be fine, but in practice, this is not what we have in-game. Zombies that are just idly walking/patrolling around a house. What we have is:

• Zombies hidden in nonsensical places like drop ceilings/drywall that BURST OUT at you despite making no noise
  
• Zombies that have been in closets for weeks/months magically deciding to break out the moment you enter the volume
  
• The opposite of your scenario, which is zombies that don't wake up, being hidden around corners/objects and in some cases not able to be hit without getting close enough to wake them.
  
• Zombies that all seem to home in on you when crossing the threshold (I know they aren't aggroed to you immediately, but they still seem to move toward the location you entered, as if you had made a noise, instead of just idly wandering)
  

If the sleeper system is supposed to just be a way to deliver awake idle zombies while saving resources, it doesn't feel that way. It doesn't feel like I'm entering a house where zombies are roaming. It feels rooms are waking up and looking for me the moment I enter, even if I'm not doing anything that should make my presence known.

I know. That's why I'm explaining it. Like I said, I think some work could be done on timing. Believe me, I can tell that for most people it feels like the zombies are waking up to their presence.

Understanding what is really going on can help reduce frustration. I'm not arguing that it is working the best it could be and we should all be happy about the way it is currently implemented. I'm saying that we should not expect to always encounter sleeping zombies because that is definitely not the intent. In the future, they may fix things with the "wandering sleepers" mechanic faatal spoke of or they may play around with the triggers and timing to make sure they wake up somewhat earlier so that the player doesn't link their waking up to what the player is doing. Or....they might leave it as it is...

Whatever TFP decides to do, players should end their expectation that they can clear an entire building without anything waking up. Those days are gone. 

If the sleeper system is supposed to just be a way to deliver awake idle zombies while saving resources, it doesn't feel that way.

Just wanted to also point out that I didn't say this. I clearly stated that it was NOT a way to deliver 100% sleeping enemies. That shouldn't be translated into that its purpose is to deliver 100% awake roaming zombies. It isn't. There are definitely spawns that are meant to be dormant zombies that won't wake up unless woken up by the player and there are others that are supposed to be awake regardless of what the player does. 

My experience has been that it is a mixture. Many times I kill zombies as they sleep and many times I have to deal with awake zombies.

 

[asmosnuts]

         No stealth should ever be 100% and its managable enough as is. Most of the time moving a few steps away when detected is enough for zs to miss you even in a small room. Its rarely fatal as long as you prepare and arent blundering about. Climbing on furniture etc can be useful as can slipping back out of rooms until things calm. Granted you need to be a bit more creative at times but its no worse than any other build and a lot more ammo efficient.

 

[Roland]

         No stealth should ever be 100% and its managable enough as is. Most of the time moving a few steps away when detected is enough for zs to miss you even in a small room. Its rarely fatal as long as you prepare and arent blundering about. Climbing on furniture etc can be useful as can slipping back out of rooms until things calm. Granted you need to be a bit more creative at times but its no worse than any other build and a lot more ammo efficient.

I'll also add that I, for one, enjoy the variety of circumstances and situations. Maybe its foul play on the part of the developers to have zombies come crashing out of the ceiling but it is fun. Kage was having fun. Purists of course will claim that even an occasional situation like that video totally invalidates the points spent on stealth and makes the whole system broken. I would much rather have rooms where you can kill all the zombies as they slumber, rooms where jump scares happen, rooms where the zombies are already awake but unaware of me, rooms where they see me and start hunting me, etc.  If I can stealth most of the time then I'm happy and not bored of the same kind of gameplay room after room after room after room.

I look forward to bandits offering even more stealthy gameplay. Man....I hope some of you guys aren't expecting bandits to spawn in asleep...

 

[Deceptive Pastry]

The jump scare closet zombies would be cool - occasionally. As it is, I have come to equate closets with zombies, because 80-90% of the time, there will be a zombie. It needs to be rare enough that you stop expecting it, maybe you start forgetting to check closets first. Because when you know just about every closet will have a zombie, it ceases being a surprise/scare.

 

[hiemfire]

If the noise a) reaches the zombie and b) is above the hearing threshold of the zombie, it will go investigate the noise (but not necessarily target you!).

When did they change the noise source to be the impact/breaking item location and not the player other than with tossed stones and snowballs?

 

[theFlu]

When did they change the noise source to be the impact/breaking item location and not the player other than with tossed stones and snowballs?

As far as I'm aware, they haven't; Boidster's phrasing could be read as implying that, but he doesn't really specify the location, so it isn't wrong in either case.

 

[hiemfire]

As far as I'm aware, they haven't; Boidster's phrasing could be read as implying that, but he doesn't really specify the location, so it isn't wrong in either case.

That might be another contributing factor to the issue with attack volumes then.

Hypothetical:

1. Sleepers get triggered by player's entry into the volume and switch to "Active" state (Pre A20 type 3 state iirc) but do not move due to failed detect check.

2. Player uses silent weapon or a tool to reduce light level via breaking a light.

3. Break noise emits from player causing now active state sleepers in range to "wake-up" and home in on player's location.

"2" can also be breaking a cabinet/closet door across the room.

 

[theFlu]

Sure, there's some unpleasant edge cases there, it could be improved by having roughly two separate sound sources - player and target location. But on the list of things to change, I'd rate that quite low on urgency...