Roland
Community Moderator
Triggers that make zombies wake up will never go away. It is a big part of the game. The guys who design the pois want triggers that wake up zombies.
PC Are there any plans on making stealth actually stealth?
- Thread starter No_Name_Idea
- Start date
Triggers that make zombies wake up will never go away. It is a big part of the game. The guys who design the pois want triggers that wake up zombies.
In simple words I would say the following is true:
1) stealth perk does help, everywhere.
2) Light has a big influence on stealth now
3) There are some rooms where zombies will immediately attack you when you enter the room when you are in the light or just not stealthy enough
4) There might even be some rooms that are so well lighted that even the stealthiest possible player will be detected by some of the zombies in there.
5) Stealth is more difficult to play now than in previous alphas
1) stealth perk does help, everywhere.
2) Light has a big influence on stealth now
3) There are some rooms where zombies will immediately attack you when you enter the room when you are in the light or just not stealthy enough
4) There might even be some rooms that are so well lighted that even the stealthiest possible player will be detected by some of the zombies in there.
5) Stealth is more difficult to play now than in previous alphas
theFlu
Well-known member
I'll say 1,2 and 5 look solid. I wouldn't make the claims 3&4 myself, just because I don't actually know the effective relevance of light levels on attack volumes; light matters, but the skills seemed a lot more significant there. But I'm not going to claim they're wrong either 
Roland
Community Moderator
There are some roof tops that the zombies wake up every single time during the day when you step foot on the rooftop but stay asleep if you do it at night. I think that this is pretty good evidence that #4 is true.
Remember that we are saying "rooms" but what we really mean are "Sleeper Volumes"
Remember that we are saying "rooms" but what we really mean are "Sleeper Volumes"
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theFlu
Well-known member
Callum123456789
Active member
eh i dont use stealth anymore i think the best stealth we ever had was in a16 or a18 im not stating that it was balanced as it was by far not but now i think its more hassle than its actually worth with all the trigger points and what not i only use stealth to go out xp hunting with bows thats about it
pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
Then they should make sure that we can´t tear down a wall 2 blocks away from them without them waking up, while they do wake up when i sneak over a invisible line 15 blocks away from them on the intended path of the POI.
Those two situations shouldn´t be possible with the same sleeper. That´s simply just bad.
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Roland
Community Moderator
Boidster
New member
Yep. And once I got into the code it was clear that it is only light level (that is, light falling on the player) vs. the zombie's detection range (line-of-sight be damned) that determined whether sleepers wake up (with auto-targeting depending on crouching/not-crouching, and player's skill if crouched). Noise plays no role. Once they're awake, of course, noise plays a role. The stealth logger shows the light level and detection and all of that, for anyone interested.
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Tohskrad
New member
I agree, I played a bit of stealth in A18 and quite a bit in A19 and had a lot of fun sneaking around, despite the slower poi progress and lighter armor types. In A20 it just doesn't feel worth the hassle and risk (once you get past lvl 15 or so with semi decent gear/weapons) due to all the forced triggers. This change required a complete overhaul of playstyle in my case. IMO now (for me) A20 more safely plays like a hack/slash or run/gun while intentionally trying to make as much noise as possible vs. slow & stealthy in previous versions. There are still some spots where a stealth kill is possible, but they are more few and far between.
Hopefully there is more of a happy medium where some stealth is actually recommended, maybe in some new T4/T5s... but for now I'll likely just keep brute forcing all the POIs and smashing/alerting everything in the way.
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Deceptive Pastry
New member
Enemies should only alert/wake from noise or vision. That's it. Or smell, if that were still a mechanic. You should alert enemies because YOU messed up, not a dice roll, not some magic unavoidable trigger. You stepped on garbage, you broke an object, you got too close, you got in their line of sight. That is how stealth should work and how it works in just about any other game with good stealth mechanics.
The unavoidable triggers and RNG "stealth checks" are ridiculous. I would consider it fine if they were rare, but they really aren't, and stealthing rooms feels too out of the player's control too often. If you want a perk to improve stealth, it should only be to reduce the distance the sounds you make travel and reduce vision of enemies. Not give you better odds rolling dice when you walk over invisible thresholds. Because that should not even be happening. Hell, at the very least tie the wake-ups to loot boxes being broken open, like in loot rooms, so it's at least somewhat believable. I've had enough of zombies falling out of drop ceilings (???) and skylights for no reason.
If devs are so set on some rooms being unstealthable, at least tone down the frequency. I don't find stealthing to be very rewarding this version for the extra time it takes.
The unavoidable triggers and RNG "stealth checks" are ridiculous. I would consider it fine if they were rare, but they really aren't, and stealthing rooms feels too out of the player's control too often. If you want a perk to improve stealth, it should only be to reduce the distance the sounds you make travel and reduce vision of enemies. Not give you better odds rolling dice when you walk over invisible thresholds. Because that should not even be happening. Hell, at the very least tie the wake-ups to loot boxes being broken open, like in loot rooms, so it's at least somewhat believable. I've had enough of zombies falling out of drop ceilings (???) and skylights for no reason.
If devs are so set on some rooms being unstealthable, at least tone down the frequency. I don't find stealthing to be very rewarding this version for the extra time it takes.
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No_Name_Idea
New member
It seems we're entering the CoD Zombies era of 7d2d
I agree with this 100%, another "recently" changed thing that makes the game more annoying. Also, I have no idea how they even managed to come to a conclusion that they should ignore noise level in the dice rolls.
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Boidster
New member
Hmm...you may misinterpret how the system works. There are no RNG stealth checks. Whether you are detected and/or targeted is strictly based on:
1) how illuminated you are
2) how much noise you are making
3) the zombies' detection ability (differs per zombie, so I guess there is a little RNG here: Arlene #1 might hear slightly better than Arlene #2)
If you cross a sleeper threshold, #1 is compared to all zombies' vision in the sleeper volume. Line-of-sight is ignored and that is arguably a Bad Thing, for sure! IIRC faatal said [or maybe it was a comment in the code] that this mechanic is a temporary stop-gap to get the system mostly working). But in any case there is no RNG component to "do I wake up the sleepers". There are some volumes (though I think it is more rare than players believe) which will always wake up when the player enters. "Scripted fights" if you want. Edit to add: okay not really. Reviewing our investigation in the older thread, the "worst" type of volume is an Attack volume, which gives the sleepers that ignore-LOS check to "see" you. In some cases, the volume might be designed - i.e. with zombies in the ceiling right over your head - so that that check nearly always succeeds and the zombies target you. But the volume is following the same rules as any other Attack volume, say one where the zombies are more spread out and don't have such an easy chance "seeing" you.
In my testing in the older thread, though, I was able to safely traverse a few volumes which players thought were "auto-attack" volumes. I needed several levels in the stealth skills though, and shooting out lights definitely helped! (Why don't the shots wake up the zombies?!? Gooood question...it definitely ain't perfect.)
If there are awake zombies around you, then they can detect sounds which, again, have no RNG component at the moment the noise is made. (As mentioned there is an RNG component giving small boosts/nerfs to individual zombies' hearing, but this is done at spawn time, not for each noise.) If the noise a) reaches the zombie and b) is above the hearing threshold of the zombie, it will go investigate the noise (but not necessarily target you!). Your stealth skills and equipment can muffle noises.
If a zombie is facing you, then we're back to player visibility vs. zombie visual acuity, but with line-of-sight considered of course. No RNG component. Your stealth skills and equipment can make you less visible.
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NoMan
Active member
On topic but still off in left field.... I use settings to make my stealth "feel" more effective.
Daytime I have Feral Sense on, zombies run, feels like I am very visible and exposed. Nighttime I have FS off, zombies walk or jog, makes it feel like I'm good at creeping in the dark.
Daytime I have Feral Sense on, zombies run, feels like I am very visible and exposed. Nighttime I have FS off, zombies walk or jog, makes it feel like I'm good at creeping in the dark.
theFlu
Well-known member
I agree with most of what you wrote, but you claim there are volumes "worse" than the 2's? Can you point me to one?
Boidster
New member
I agree with most of what you wrote, but you claim there are volumes "worse" than the 2's? Can you point me to one?
Did I claim that? Let me pull up the code again and refresh my memory. Maybe I misspoke.
Edit to add: okay I see what you are saying. No, there is nothing worse than an Attack sleeper volume (a "2" in XML). At worst, I guess, there are volumes designed in such a way that the special "can I see you" check by the zombies is nearly guaranteed to succeed regardless of skill. I.e. where they fall out of the ceiling onto your head. You can still lose the targeting of course, so even that is not like BMH GPS where they lock on and don't let go.
I was being too accommodating above, I guess. There are no auto-attack volumes, really. Just the sometimes difficult-to-avoid standard Attack volumes (the 2s).
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theFlu
Well-known member
Well, that's how it reads; "some volumes which will always wake up" is being compared to "I was able to safely traverse a few of them". Do they wake up or not; we've established that the 2s don't (always!) - in that warehouse; for "some always waking up", there would need to be an additional type.
I'm being pedantic because the auto-attack-discussion is confused enough already - just trying to keep it as clear as possible for everyone..
Boidster
New member
I get what you're saying. I guess the farthest I'm willing to go is, "we've established that at least some Attack volumes can be traversed with a highly-skilled character." It would not surprise me, though I have not tested and proved it, if some Attack volumes were arranged in a way that makes the fight essentially unavoidable even by a max-skill player. There is a minimum distance to the player below which the zombie will wake up and it's in the range of a few/several meters. The stealth logger modlet shows these ranges; I've just never run it through a more...devious...sleeper volume. Would not surprise me to find a few which while not technically auto-attack, are effectively so.
Ah, found it. It's 3 meters. If you're closer than 3m, the sleeper zombies will detect you.
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theFlu
Well-known member
Ok, that's a fair point, although I'd be crying foul just for the setup in that case. You'd have to have all the zeds right next to the point of entry for them to wake up at optimal stealth conditions; sure it could be set up, but I wouldn't blame anyone for a rage-uninstall at that point...
Ok, that's a fair point, although I'd be crying foul just for the setup in that case. You'd have to have all the zeds right next to the point of entry for them to wake up at optimal stealth conditions; sure it could be set up, but I wouldn't blame anyone for a rage-uninstall at that point...
Have a very small room with only 1 or 2 zombies and them ALL waking up means just those 1 or 2, nothing extraordinary.