PC Please stop trying to tell us how to play

[G2manT]

I have 11450 hrs in this game and I always build an underground base. I also build an above ground base to fight the bloodmoon horde. Both are connected with tunnels and I never escape down the tunnel to avoid the horde. It's just the way I like to play.

 

[Tmodloader]

If you're going to all that effort by digging an underground base to escape hord night, just turn it off.

The only thing I'm doing different is my base doesn't have a front door.  Otherwise I build the same way. 

The only thing they've done that I strongly disagree with is they made the workstation way more difficult to come by. After you get your base built, everything else you want to make requires a workstation.

I still don't have a work station in my underground base A20, no deaths run

while i do agree with you mega i feel the devs have made the statement adapt or screw you to a group that loves building undergroun

why can't people go underground anymore? Seems like something that is easy to do still, especially once you can make your steel box. I don't see how that is "adapt or screw you"

 

[fragtzack]

I am also a long time player with 3000 hours. Disagree with the OP and agree with TFP for attempting to counter exploits. 

Survival is not about seeing how you can game the game. Applaud 7D2D devs for doing exactly what the OP and a few others are complaining about.

 

[Tmodloader]

Applaud 7D2D devs for doing exactly what the OP and a few others are complaining about.

If this is what OP meant then wow these people are pretty passive aggressive too. Rereading his post, he seemed to claim that underground building is undoable now, as if there was some change that makes spaces underground cave in more easily or something. If he meant he can't exploit it but can still do it, but is mad because it's not broken, that's pretty lame. 

 

[SylenThunder]

Sort out the optimisation.  Fix the stability issue.  Get the story line going.

These are all things that happen in Beta development. The game is still in Alpha development. The part where major changes to core systems are made. Where simple/temporary placeholders are replaced with the real systems the developers have created. Where the game play style of the game is still being created, and is in flux with each and every update.

 

[fragtzack]

 There is nothing to stop someone from building a base underground. 

No one is forcing players to play a particular style.

Utter hogwash from OP and the whine video from Saven.

Just to clarify, not everyone who built an underground base did it to avoid the horde.

I built them and on horde night, depending on if on MP server or SP game, I went above ground to fight.

I have 90% of time had a separate horde base. On MP servers usually it was a team base where we all fought or on my SP game I would make my own little place to fight them. Sometime I would just juice up on coffee and run around bashing heads. Or even get zoms to chase me as a pack so others could take shots at them...lol fun times.

Anyway this was just to explain that all undergrounders don't do it to avoid the hordes on horde nights.

Thank you for listening...

Totally agree with this and I used to do underground bases the same way. The OP and other whiners about underground bases are omitting a key fact in the whine statements: They want a base that is 100% safe from harm. 

 In a15, my first bug report was "Zombies won't dig down to me on horde night. "

In fact, back in a15 you could simply dig a 4-5 block hole straight down  1hour before horde night and stay safe all during horde.

Applaud digging zombies and any exploit fixes by devs that prevent 100% safe environment for my game.

 

[pahbi]

I'm just going to go off topic because I don't like the topic anyways.  

That blade base video and bunker base videos looked sweet.

I could easily see the bunker base being an early game horde base with just cobblestone, that you upgrade later on as materials become available.

Later on once I get enough material, I'm definately doing that blade base.

 

[fragtzack]

Here is another fun fact about play style being "forced" :

You don't even need to build a base.  Game stage 250ish currently/level 80ish and I still don't have a base. I simply throw down loot containers and forges/workbench/etc across the street from traders.  Yup, get attacked at night and during the day. I welcome the zeds attacking my "base" because tis +exp.

For horde nights, up until level 60ish I would simply take over a strong structure POI (with alterations such as knocking out stairs) for that horde night. 

Forcing players to a particular "style" is utterly untrue.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Forcing players to a particular "style" is utterly untrue.

again yes and no.

OPs point about underground bases was untrue.

BUT there are situations where we are basically forced by the sheer difference in effectiveness.
Why would you ever sneak in a POI if they wake up anyways.

Sure they don want 't disable sneaking, but they currently might as well have. 

Yes it may get fixed in the future, but there are other things.

Try playing as a mole right now.

Staying in the wilderness and surviving on farming and looting only the trash and wilderness POIs.

You won't get NEARLY as much exp, the loot is (literal)garbage <lol> and you won't even be able to build a decent horde base because there are things that you simply can not get without a trader or looting bigger pois.

Cement is really hard to come by. A crucible nearly impossible.

So you sit on 999999 iron but can't do anything with it.

I am not saying that every play style should be equal.

BUT there are obvious... hints as to what TFPs want you to do and what they do not want you to do.

They want you to fight the horde.

No matter how many traps you set up, they all break within seconds, give reduced exp and after that all you can do is either sit them out or fight the Z's.

I remember spikepits. Sure there were a few exploits. But it was a lot of work and especially now with the demolisher, they wouldn't nearly work as well.

These things happened since I joined back in A8.

And not every change was bad. A lot of them good. BUT OP has a point. 

They do "force" a certain play style by giving it all the advantages.

 

[fragtzack]

again yes and no.

OPs point about underground bases was untrue.

BUT there are situations where we are basically forced by the sheer difference in effectiveness.
Why would you ever sneak in a POI if they wake up anyways.

Sure they don want 't disable sneaking, but they currently might as well have. 

Yes it may get fixed in the future, but there are other things.

 Well that is not quite true about stealth either. Yes stealth is harder, but I play agi/stealth build and have discovered how to make stealth work with a20.

They did nerf stealth quite hard, maybe a bit too hard..I didn't give up. Instead, what discovered is that : There is not hard triggers to break stealth.

Some tips for folks thinking stealth is too hard to manage now:

1. Clear POI at night, on the larger POI's I sometimes have to screw off during the day to allow a second night.  In game settings, increase the night timr period! Night time is to be cherished for stealth builds.

2. Sometimes you need to destroy lights before getting closer to where zeds are

3. Do not, repeat, DO NOT think there is any honor to be had in following the path intended for the player to follow through the POI. Instead, use the voxel system 

  to break down walls/doors  where the POI maker didn't expect. Use nerd poling. This is probably the biggest thing I did to start making stealth work for me,

   Going to give an example here: On the tier 5 book tower, build ladder/straight to the roof to start the clear. Alternately, clear the first floor by axing through the massive traps at entrance. Then after 1st floor clear,  go to the roof from outside with nerd pole/ladders. Also, there is  a back door to pickaxe/chop through for the lobby floor.

4. Trash/glass on floor causes noise. You must axe these away before walking over.

5. The book perks that allow you to walk over that trash without noise and the other perk to jump without noise are huge perks.

6. Pay close attention to noise meter. Everything you do causes noise. 

7. Go slower, much slower.

9. After drawing string on a bow for example, don't fire right away. That drawing of string causes noise, wait 1-2 seconds(watch noise meter) before firing. Only after noise meter drops from the noise raise of string draw should fire. After firing, do not draw/reload or move right away. Wait for the firing noise to return to base level.

10. The key thing I also learned is don't panic when detected by standing up and running away. Usually if a zed agro's you when stealth, there will only be 1 or 2 zed agro. If you stand up and run, the whole floor will agro. Instead, move back slowly away from the spot you fired from. Usually, if your noise level is low enough they will run to the spot where they detected your firing spot but will not see you anymore.  Wait for them to get out of search mode and then whack them. A lot times they might run right next to you and stop and still not detect you. That is melee sneak attack time!

11. Tis possible to walk with only raising the noise meter by 1-2, but need to be very slow. Once you get this patience of walking thing down, tis possible to very slowly walk up to zombies and melee attach them for instant kills.  Press w as short clicks with pauses in between instead of just holding down w to move.

 So yes, while stealth is nerfed and I used to think there is hard triggers to break stealth in a20... After deeper dives in this issues discovered there is not hard break stealth triggers. 

You just need to work harder to make stealth work.

 

[Desmondbratcat]

Ok there is nowhere that I said I didn't want to do horde night, I do horde night, I have horde bases and some of them used to be underground.  Last time I tried building an underground base I dug a ladder to bedrock then a tunnel that was pretty long with doors along it before you even got to my base, I was digging out my base and turned around to have a screamer horde on me.  This is what I am complaining about.  How does anyone do this now without cheating because I seem to have problems. I used to do some really good underground bases.  I also did and still do some really good above ground bases but my location options have been halved.  The block hit points reduction... this is coming back, we all know it and yes we can use different blocks but why??? Just because the FP don't like us using poles on our horde bases?  Because they didn't put them in the game to be used that way?  Ok fine, reduce the hit points on poles etc but also reduce the cost them to reflect the hit point decrease.  No problem I will use other blocks.  The FP don't seem to like killing corridors with wedge tips.  Neither do I, they are boring, I prefer something a bit more interesting but that is just me.  Lost of people love killing corridors but guess what?? Gone. Maybe not entirely but you naughty people out there that do use them - shame on you the FP don't like this.   Someone replied and said I was politicising this.  What I said was I feel like I am being told what to do every way I turn and I don't need it in a game.  I am not asking the FP to do a game for me, I am saying that if they give me these tools and items in an open world sandbox tower defense game I should be able to used these tools and objects as I see fit. 

 

[meganoth]

again yes and no.

OPs point about underground bases was untrue.

BUT there are situations where we are basically forced by the sheer difference in effectiveness.
Why would you ever sneak in a POI if they wake up anyways.

Sure they don want 't disable sneaking, but they currently might as well have. 

Yes it may get fixed in the future, but there are other things.

Try playing as a mole right now.

Staying in the wilderness and surviving on farming and looting only the trash and wilderness POIs.

You won't get NEARLY as much exp, the loot is (literal)garbage <lol> and you won't even be able to build a decent horde base because there are things that you simply can not get without a trader or looting bigger pois.

Cement is really hard to come by. A crucible nearly impossible.

So you sit on 999999 iron but can't do anything with it.

I am not saying that every play style should be equal.

BUT there are obvious... hints as to what TFPs want you to do and what they do not want you to do.

They want you to fight the horde.

No matter how many traps you set up, they all break within seconds, give reduced exp and after that all you can do is either sit them out or fight the Z's.

I remember spikepits. Sure there were a few exploits. But it was a lot of work and especially now with the demolisher, they wouldn't nearly work as well.

Comparing spike traps to demos is a bit off as you pit beginner traps against professional end-game boss.

The advanced traps need battery or generator and work even against a demolisher. I remember doing a spike pit with blade traps.

These things happened since I joined back in A8.

And not every change was bad. A lot of them good. BUT OP has a point. 

They do "force" a certain play style by giving it all the advantages.

 

[Tmodloader]

Ok there is nowhere that I said I didn't want to do horde night, I do horde night, I have horde bases and some of them used to be underground.  Last time I tried building an underground base I dug a ladder to bedrock then a tunnel that was pretty long with doors along it before you even got to my base, I was digging out my base and turned around to have a screamer horde on me.  This is what I am complaining about.  How does anyone do this now without cheating because I seem to have problems. I used to do some really good underground bases.  I also did and still do some really good above ground bases but my location options have been halved.  The block hit points reduction... this is coming back, we all know it and yes we can use different blocks but why??? Just because the FP don't like us using poles on our horde bases?  Because they didn't put them in the game to be used that way?  Ok fine, reduce the hit points on poles etc but also reduce the cost them to reflect the hit point decrease.  No problem I will use other blocks.  The FP don't seem to like killing corridors with wedge tips.  Neither do I, they are boring, I prefer something a bit more interesting but that is just me.  Lost of people love killing corridors but guess what?? Gone. Maybe not entirely but you naughty people out there that do use them - shame on you the FP don't like this.   Someone replied and said I was politicising this.  What I said was I feel like I am being told what to do every way I turn and I don't need it in a game.  I am not asking the FP to do a game for me, I am saying that if they give me these tools and items in an open world sandbox tower defense game I should be able to used these tools and objects as I see fit. 

This is likely because you are not playing things safe. For my underground bases I may hear screamers but I never even see them (in the base) because I use doors and trap doors. If you're just digging an open hole of course you should expect things to get to you easily.

I agree with the cost reduction on poles 100%.

 

[Sydious]

 There is nothing to stop someone from building a base underground. 

No one is forcing players to play a particular style.

Utter hogwash from OP and the whine video from Saven.

Totally agree with this and I used to do underground bases the same way. The OP and other whiners about underground bases are omitting a key fact in the whine statements: They want a base that is 100% safe from harm. 

 In a15, my first bug report was "Zombies won't dig down to me on horde night. "

In fact, back in a15 you could simply dig a 4-5 block hole straight down  1hour before horde night and stay safe all during horde.

Applaud digging zombies and any exploit fixes by devs that prevent 100% safe environment for my game.

"They want a base that is 100% safe from harm" and yet they can not do that (to my knowledge), but they used to be able to if they so wished.  Is that not the very definition of OP's statement.  

What anyone thinks should or should not be allowed, for what ever reason, is not an argument to a factual statement.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

"They want a base that is 100% safe from harm" and yet they can not do that (to my knowledge), but they used to be able to if they so wished.  Is that not the very definition of OP's statement.  

What anyone thinks should or should not be allowed, for what ever reason, is not an argument to a factual statement.

They can do that.

By disabling the horde.

I do not want my base free from harm. I want to struggle. Find ways to survive.

But I can't do that if I know there is an easy solution. Ppl that want to be safe on horde night can simply disable it.

Last time I tried building an underground base I dug a ladder to bedrock then a tunnel that was pretty long with doors along it before you even got to my base, I was digging out my base and turned around to have a screamer horde on me.

Build defenses on the entrance. Otherwise they are special zombies that sniff you out. I think that is a good thing.

And the block hp was a bad implementation of an ok idea. But they fixed it next patch after feedback. 
 

 

[Scyris]

AHHHH, YOU SUMMONED ME!

Too bad that the developers want to make the game they themselves want to play. Too bad that they have to decide on exactly one game that is vanilla, not a hundred, and leave the hundred games to modders. They are as stubborn as you, but they own the game and you just want to get your perfect game without programming it yourself.

I don't like zombies giving XP as you do but I know I won't get my perfect game if I don't mod myself. And I know that I might not even know exactly what game I really want, fun is a very ephemeral thing. So I won't rail against decisions where I clearly see the developers have made up their mind. Obviously me having still fun with the vanilla game means I can live with that. I'm sure there are a lot of players who can't but this game can't be the perfect game for everyone.

They really look at how games are played and adjust things when they see some blocks being too powerful as zombie shields for example. This is how beta balancing for other games work as well. Those beta players are not getting invited for their fun as you perfectly know, they are there as guinee pigs doing extended balancing testing. And that goes double for us alpha players.

To the original poster @Desmondbratcat:

Now this "let me play how I want to play" style is commonly know as a sandbox. Probably minecraft is a relatively pure sandbox, 7D2D is not. It has big elements of survival and RPG in it and both these elements demand balance for your game play options and what you get from what effort.

This is best illustrated by underground building. If zombies have no way at all to reach you then there is a balancing problem in the game, it would work as a sandbox, but not as an RPG or survival game. Since the developers want an RPG and a survival game this will not change, simple as that.

In reality you can just reduce block damage on zombies to the lowest available value or turn off zombies at horde night and at other times (and turn them on again if you want to smack some) without even mods and be safe if you build sufficiently deep, i.e. on rock bottom. Do either that, look for a fitting mod, or yes, look for a game that says it is just a sandbox.

I wish the devs wouldn't be making a game they want to play in this case because its ruining it. Now do get me wrong here I am all for this usually as usually the devs make something nice, but in 7dtd its been nothing but a steady downhill spiral since after a16. A16.4's skill system was nearly perfect it just needed some tweaks, like craft quality being removed from the action skill, and instead changed to how it works in A17. Which with learn as you do levels 1, 20, 40, 60 and then 80 unlocks a perk level which gives damage bonuses etc and also up the qual yuou can craft. It was literally all A16.4's skill system needed to be fixed. Instead, we got a complete redo nobody wanted and that many people don't even like.

Now we have A20, stealth has pretty much been completly killed with most of the sleeper volumes just instantly locking onto you second you walk in the room no matter how quiet you are. Now I am aware I can bash thru the wall and go in a diff way to dodge the trigger block, but this is even more lore breaking than there being a auto-aggro trigger block, I mean banging on the walls seems like the LAST thing you'd wanna do in a possibly zombie infested location. Whats even worse, is how every zombie just about is perfectly positioned to avoid sneak attacks/first strikes from outside the room.  Stealth DOES work outdoors, but the main place you'd want to be using it is inside a poi not when your out in the open and can easly get away from anything or have distance. Stealth was the "Slow but safe" approach to looting, its much slower than just going in shooting/bashing/stabbing, and it also severely limits what weapons you can use since many are too noisy to be used for this purpose.

Now to mention the poi's where they come out of the cieling and such, No other game really does this, and when they do its a very rare thing not a almost every single poi you into thing like it is in 7dtd, Office_04 is a prime example about how to design a poi that makes no sense. Literally every sleeper volume aggros second you walk into the room, almost every volume has 1-3 zombies that drop from the cieling. The worse though is when you go into the loot room, a zombie literally spawns to the right of you basically hugging you the second you walk in, you cannot avoid that cheapshot there. As it doesn't spawn till the volume triggers which isin't until you actually walk into the room. It spawns in the very next block beside your char. Usually in a new poi I walk in the door a block or 2, then walk back out to see what aggros from where, but that did not work here I still got a unavoidable cheapshot out of thin air.

The dungeon style poi's when I first heard about these I thought "cool, might be a neat if once in a while there are these." I was not expecting almost EVERY single poi to be one of these, it makes no sense what so ever. I mean the designs are nice don't get me wrong. but like many things in 7dtd just feels completly out of place for the type of game it is. I mean if people could barricade them selves up that well, how did they all die so easly? some of those houses are more secure than a damn bank is.

I will say this though the graphical look of the game is above and beyond what I ever thought it would be in a good way, but I think its time to tone down working on graphics and start working on gameplay issues and such instead, which the game has a alarming amount of issues in that section.

"They want a base that is 100% safe from harm" and yet they can not do that (to my knowledge), but they used to be able to if they so wished.  Is that not the very definition of OP's statement.  

What anyone thinks should or should not be allowed, for what ever reason, is not an argument to a factual statement.

I used to make underground bases just cuz the Si system seemed much more lenient down there. Was much easier to dig a hole for a early base than actually build something. I mean you still can, they just can now dig down to you, so its not 100% safe anymore.

 

[Crater Creator]

Both the OP and the author of the first linked video are confusing (deliberately or not) being "forced" to play one way, or fixing the game so they "can't" do certain things anymore, with what has actually happened: changes so that certain things are no longer more effective than alternatives they may or may not have tried.

You can build underground.  You can farm.  You can use pole blocks, wedge tips, or any of 1300 shapes you want now.  The Fun Pimps didn't remove any of those things from the game.  They don't brick your computer if you try.  The things you're objecting to are really changes to balance.  Just because it's not as effective as it used to be, doesn't mean you can't do it or are forced to do something else.

And this is directed more at the author of the video, but I reject the assertion that, because there are more players than developers, they'll always find some other exploit so patching them is a waste of time.  The developers are the 'gods' of the game universe - the dungeon masters - because they literally define the rules of the game.  They could hard code it so the player character just dies instantly when the Blood Moon begins, if they wanted to.  It wouldn't be interesting or fun, but the point is looking at this as an arms race that either the devs or the players will 'win' is silly.  The devs are creating both the obstacles to survival and the tools to overcome them.

I think the devs have been adjusting for things that work too well, but I don't believe they've set out to take away anything that works in an effort to 'beat' the player.  The goal is to engage the player in a challenging, balanced way.

 

[meganoth]

I wish the devs wouldn't be making a game they want to play in this case because its ruining it. Now do get me wrong here I am all for this usually as usually the devs make something nice, but in 7dtd its been nothing but a steady downhill spiral since after a16. A16.4's skill system was nearly perfect it just needed some tweaks, like craft quality being removed from the action skill, and instead changed to how it works in A17. Which with learn as you do levels 1, 20, 40, 60 and then 80 unlocks a perk level which gives damage bonuses etc and also up the qual yuou can craft. It was literally all A16.4's skill system needed to be fixed. Instead, we got a complete redo nobody wanted and that many people don't even like.

Silly me, am I nobody? I don't want Learn-by-Doing in ANY of my games, I always prefer to directly decide what abilities my character has.

Many people don't like it, many like it. Thats a fact and thats a fact of any game out there. :deadhorse:

Now we have A20, stealth has pretty much been completly killed with most of the sleeper volumes just instantly locking onto you second you walk in the room no matter how quiet you are. Now I am aware I can bash thru the wall and go in a diff way to dodge the trigger block, but this is even more lore breaking than there being a auto-aggro trigger block, I mean banging on the walls seems like the LAST thing you'd wanna do in a possibly zombie infested location. Whats even worse, is how every zombie just about is perfectly positioned to avoid sneak attacks/first strikes from outside the room.  Stealth DOES work outdoors, but the main place you'd want to be using it is inside a poi not when your out in the open and can easly get away from anything or have distance. Stealth was the "Slow but safe" approach to looting, its much slower than just going in shooting/bashing/stabbing, and it also severely limits what weapons you can use since many are too noisy to be used for this purpose.

Now to mention the poi's where they come out of the cieling and such, No other game really does this, and when they do its a very rare thing not a almost every single poi you into thing like it is in 7dtd, Office_04 is a prime example about how to design a poi that makes no sense. Literally every sleeper volume aggros second you walk into the room, almost every volume has 1-3 zombies that drop from the cieling. The worse though is when you go into the loot room, a zombie literally spawns to the right of you basically hugging you the second you walk in, you cannot avoid that cheapshot there. As it doesn't spawn till the volume triggers which isin't until you actually walk into the room. It spawns in the very next block beside your char. Usually in a new poi I walk in the door a block or 2, then walk back out to see what aggros from where, but that did not work here I still got a unavoidable cheapshot out of thin air.

The dungeon style poi's when I first heard about these I thought "cool, might be a neat if once in a while there are these." I was not expecting almost EVERY single poi to be one of these, it makes no sense what so ever. I mean the designs are nice don't get me wrong. but like many things in 7dtd just feels completly out of place for the type of game it is. I mean if people could barricade them selves up that well, how did they all die so easly? some of those houses are more secure than a damn bank is.

I will say this though the graphical look of the game is above and beyond what I ever thought it would be in a good way, but I think its time to tone down working on graphics and start working on gameplay issues and such instead, which the game has a alarming amount of issues in that section.

I used to make underground bases just cuz the Si system seemed much more lenient down there. Was much easier to dig a hole for a early base than actually build something. I mean you still can, they just can now dig down to you, so its not 100% safe anymore.

I built my first underground base in the first game after zombies started digging. Before that it was simply an unbalanced and unfinished part of the game that I had to avoid because I would run into an exploit.

"They want a base that is 100% safe from harm" and yet they can not do that (to my knowledge), but they used to be able to if they so wished.  Is that not the very definition of OP's statement.  

What anyone thinks should or should not be allowed, for what ever reason, is not an argument to a factual statement.

The relevant quote from the OPs post is "being forced into a certain play or build style". No, he is not forced. He might not like the circumstances of building underground, but nobody promised him a deal with all advantages and no disadvantages. No one promised him he could play in the "scaffolding"

 

[Rotor]

I'm just going to go off topic because I don't like the topic anyways.  

That blade base video and bunker base videos looked sweet.

I could easily see the bunker base being an early game horde base with just cobblestone, that you upgrade later on as materials become available.

Later on once I get enough material, I'm definately doing that blade base.

One problem with the first video.  The narrator said "AFK Base".... those are doomsday words right there for that comptraption .

Regards,

Rotor

 

[seagas]

I've been playing since A16, and IMHO, this game keeps getting better with each new Alpha. Sure they change somethings that I liked, but I learned to adapt and change my play style. I still do stealth builds, and it still works, you just have to find new ways of doing things, I still die here and there, but it teaches me how not to let that happen to me again. Look people, if this 67 year old fart gamer, with almost no hand eye coordination left anymore, can learn to adjust and adapt, you can too. What is the challenge to doing things the same way all of the time. Watch a few youtube video to help you learn new ways if need be.