PC Farming not very viable even with living off the land 3.

[pahbi]

From steam user That Blind Person: 

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\7 Days To Die\Data\ConfigUse Notepad or Notepad++ to open Blocks.xmlHit F3 and paste "3harvestplayer" search twice and you'll see<!-- NOT_A_SHAPE --><block name="plantedMushroom3HarvestPlayer">scroll down and change the prob="0.5" to prob="1", in the following line;<drop event="Destroy" name="plantedMushroom1" count="1" prob="0.5"/>search twice again for the next player harvest block for the crop you want and change those prob="0.5" to prob="1" for whatever plants you want.Personally I find 0.75 to be a pretty good sweet spot especially if you don't go for living off the land tier 3 right away. (I always do because I like me some farmin'.Always remember to create backups of your xml's before modding them.

We will probably try this before everybody logs in tonight.   Otherwise 1 person running a farm will never be able to keep up with 6 other players unless we make a farm the size of a small city.  Anything is better than the current system even with skill points invested, talk about a grind.

Editing the config files can cause grief down the road, it is recommended to make a xpath modlet instead.  One hassle of editing the config files is you may need to re-edit when a new update comes out.

I uploaded a modlet to the mods forum, give it a try, it should greatly increase the effects of Living off The Land

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/26048-increase-harvest-from-living-off-the-land-perk/

 

[kraegor]

I have 34 plots x 4.  Growing Mushrooms, Corn, Potatoes, Yucca/Blueberries. 

I average a harvest (after re-seeding) of about 125 veggies of each type PER DAY.  Because the crop growing is so fast.

I have literally a whole box full of food. I can't eat it fast enough.  I have 5 people playing on my server. I feed them all. 

I had 300 meat the first day from Trader Pigs and Rooster Den bar.

If anything they made food WAY to easy to get now.  Not even a challenge on that department.  

 

[theFlu]

I had collected 8 potato seeds, <snip>

Over the course of the next 33 days I kept looting seeds and harvesting my crops and kept turning all my crops back into seeds and replanted. Eventually I didnt have enough potatos to keep making seeds and never ate any of my crops so that wasnt the problem

Geez, that's massively unlucky. I think we found a Cain ..

But yeh, that's the collapse, with enough players and attempts, it will happen. And as you had several different crops going, as we all will, there's basically several "attempts" going on at once for every farmer; one of them failing is a lot more likely of course, in your case spuds.

This doesn't help anyone, I'm just emphasizing that it is sort of expected if the design allows for an unlucky failure.

 

[IgnyteZero]

It only feels negative to you because you are an early access player and experienced a different state of farming before this one. New players are going to come in having no idea that plants used to regrow automatically or that you didn't get a seed back for every single plant. If they are immersed in the post apocalyptic setting they'll even make a connection between only getting partial seeds back to the idea that they aren't farming in 2021 Iowa.

New players also aren't likely to begin by trying to create a sustainable farm like we have done historically. They will plant their seeds and harvest their crops and then plant the seeds they get back plus others they find and harvest those and save the crops to use in recipes and have enough to make some stew to supplement other food they have.

We on the other hand get to adapt to the new normal and realize that sustainable farming that generates crates and crates of food is most likely not going to happen unless we spend the perk points to make it happen. I haven't seen one person disagree that sustainable farms aren't possible with level 3 of LOTL. That is the ultimate state of farming. It is purple level farming and so shouldn't be easy to do without the highest level of the perk.

That being said, I'm just trying to explain the philosophy behind the change. I'm not saying it is perfect as is. Obviously, there is already one change planned for the perk progression. I've got nothing against Madmole changing the 50% seed retention to something more favorable or changing seed harvest to just an automatically regrowing plant or increasing crop yields a bit more. I hope if they pendulum swing away from what it is currently they won't knee jerk it by a lot because I do think that farming before now was just a simpleton's game and resulted in way too much food way too early. 

We could  be wrong as well. Maybe new players WILL be turned off of farming because they won't think it through carefully and craft all their crops into seeds at a diminishing rate of return and end up with nothing  and didn't even know they were supposed to perk into farming at all to be able to be successful with a self sustaining farm. If the outcry is enough TFP may make adjustments in that case. They are unlikely to revert anything in the first full week of experimental on just the initial reactions.

True. In this my POV is of course biased from previous experiences.

And yes I agree farming was trivial at best in A19. Something needed to be done. But then again I never really were that hot for the farm plot system either to begin with.

But I do think it's problematic that two points into hunting (tracking and huntsman) are so extremely much more rewarding than five points into Fortitude/LotL. (Currently in our game we are literally swimming in meat on day 32.) And that so many food types are now more obsolete than ever. But that's another discussion I suppose.

I didnt use any crops for recipes, just re making seeds and my potato plants went from 8 down to 1 just re making seeds, the coffee seams to be giving me a seed about 30% of the time but not my potatos. Mabye code it to garrentee a seed return after 2 crops instead of a big MAYBE every one. Very much a waste of time if you get no seeds from 8 plants in a row. If you want us to just save all seeds until you can speck to LOTL 3 whats the point? So you can finally start a farm at end game???????? Make the seeds a garentee every 2 crops and problem solved.

As I pointed out elsewhere it all could potentially balance out with a system with a smaller chance for a second seed from a harvested plant. Say a 20/40% or 15/30% chance with Lotl 1/2. With that Lotl 1 & 2 will still be challenging but less punishing while Lotl 3 is still the only really sustainable skill level choice. Also makes Lotl 2 matter more.

 

[meganoth]

Since everyone is posting his in-game experiences here is mine (with Lotl 1):

Had 11 seeds of different fruits planted and harvested them today. Got back 5 seeds.

Made everything to seeds I could (without adding fruits or seeds I found in the meantime).Replanted 12 seeds and got 9 fruits out for cooking or as backup for the next season.

 

[Orclover]

Day 28 and we finally seem to have a handle on starvation for all players.  Editing the config helped but I think the biggest boost was enough players getting high end food items to convert the meat and produce into food that actually does something instead of barely moving the hunger bar.  The early food recipes were just not cutting it.  It got pretty bad during the first few days of playing, two people were close to demanding that I edit the hunger speed.

But now, everyone is fed and settled.

Editing the config files can cause grief down the road, it is recommended to make a xpath modlet instead.  One hassle of editing the config files is you may need to re-edit when a new update comes out.

I uploaded a modlet to the mods forum, give it a try, it should greatly increase the effects of Living off The Land

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/26048-increase-harvest-from-living-off-the-land-perk/

I might revert the changes I made and give that a try.  Although I think we are ok now regardless of any changes I keep enabled.

 

[pahbi]

Day 28 and we finally seem to have a handle on starvation for all players.  Editing the config helped but I think the biggest boost was enough players getting high end food items to convert the meat and produce into food that actually does something instead of barely moving the hunger bar.  The early food recipes were just not cutting it.  It got pretty bad during the first few days of playing, two people were close to demanding that I edit the hunger speed.

But now, everyone is fed and settled.

I might revert the changes I made and give that a try.  Although I think we are ok now regardless of any changes I keep enabled.

Sounds good. 

Main thing is everyone having fun. 

 

[Darthjake]

Meh, I started my farm with LotL level 2, and while I struggled a bit, I kept the momentum going by looting seeds and hoarding them all to plant while crafting more farm plots.  For the first week or 2, I had more plots then I had seeds, then once I got LotL 3, everything got easier, yeah, sometimes I have to craft 4 or more seeds, but quite a few times I've gotten all 6 seeds back.

Question:  Does the loot percentage affect the potential return on seeds?

 

[BarryTGash]

A possible solution is that replanting is done round-robin  by everyone, only harvest is done by the farmer

Which is completely the opposite to how manual harvesting is performed irl.  Planting might take a few extra hands, but maintenance of plants between harvests takes relatively few. When the crop is ready for harvest, then it's literally all hands on deck to get that harvest in asap. 

Before the old 'but realism' nonsense: I realise this is a game with zombies. We're talking about a mundane* aspect of it - and mundane aspects should make sense rather than fall to the whim of arcade mechanics just to introduce artificial tedium difficulty. There has to be a better solution than currently implemented.

It saddens me that the new world generation is phenomenal, yet dumbing down of game mechanics - like farming - negates that effort. Having a much more vibrant world to 'live' in is almost pointless when the only actions one can perform in that world are overly simplified, relying on plain RNG and little skill. Granted, RNG is easier to implement but I sincerely hope these mechanisms (including lockpicking) are just placeholders.

Ok, I may have ranted a little more than I wanted to... sorry.

*mundane: of this earthly world, rather than fantasy, spiritual or other.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

We are on day 28 now, 3 people playing, farm is running ok, we have enough to eat but not a real overflow. Early game was a bit harsh at times, as you would expect when you start with pretty much nothing. After 3 days you can easily buy and find cans until you get a farm going.

It is fine tbh. Food should be something that you need to care about in a survival game and not just an easy way to get a bonus.

In A19 food was so easy to get that you could actually eat hobostews and better stuff just for the bonus even when your hunger bar was full. It was laughable easy.

 

[meganoth]

Which is completely the opposite to how manual harvesting is performed irl.  Planting might take a few extra hands, but maintenance of plants between harvests takes relatively few. When the crop is ready for harvest, then it's literally all hands on deck to get that harvest in asap. 

Before the old 'but realism' nonsense: I realise this is a game with zombies. We're talking about a mundane* aspect of it - and mundane aspects should make sense rather than fall to the whim of arcade mechanics just to introduce artificial tedium difficulty. There has to be a better solution than currently implemented.

What I don't understand here (though it is only a probably unimportant detail of your rant): A19 had dead easy farming and was as unrealistic as this one. So sense did not fall to the whim of arcade mechanics to introduce difficulty, one unrealistic easy system was replaced with another one and without getting easier.

It saddens me that the new world generation is phenomenal, yet dumbing down of game mechanics - like farming - negates that effort. Having a much more vibrant world to 'live' in is almost pointless when the only actions one can perform in that world are overly simplified, relying on plain RNG and little skill.

Where is the dumbing down here? It was trivial in all the alphas (probably you meant that really). Compared to A19 this version at least needs mathematics to really understand if creating seeds from food is worth it.

Granted, RNG is easier to implement but I sincerely hope these mechanisms (including lockpicking) are just placeholders.

Ok, I may have ranted a little more than I wanted to... sorry.

*mundane: of this earthly world, rather than fantasy, spiritual or other.

 

[BarryTGash]

What I don't understand here (though it is only a probably unimportant detail of your rant): A19 had dead easy farming and was as unrealistic as this one. So sense did not fall to the whim of arcade mechanics to introduce difficulty, one unrealistic easy system was replaced with another one and without getting easier.

Where is the dumbing down here? It was trivial in all the alphas (probably you meant that really). Compared to A19 this version at least needs mathematics to really understand if creating seeds from food is worth it.

You're right - one unrealistic system has been replaced with another. Essentially a sidestep rather than a step forward. I don't know, the improvements to the worldspace seems to emphasise the disparity between between the immersiveness of the world and the immersion-breaking mechanics behind the actions we can take in that world. 

Back to farming specifically, the need to replant does make sense for potatoes and pumpkins. Not so for other crops.  Below are some initial ideas...

Maybe increasing the amount of time it takes crops to grow, say from 2 days (I think it is now?) to a full week or even more, individually relative to their real world counterparts, decreasing seeds in loot rate (mice/rats ate them all?) and the crop to seed ratio (IRL 1 seed potato can potentially be cut up to grow several plants, but that would be too much so 1 potato = 1 seed potato?) and not treating all crops the same, eg. only potatoes and pumpkins require replanting every harvest?

You could introduce a small percentage chance for, say, a corn plant to die after harvest requiring a replant (so the same mechanic as now, just a much lower rate - LoL ranks could reduce this percentage chance, say, 12% no rank to 3% at rank 3 as examples). Harvestable amount would be random between 0 & 3 (1 corn plant, irl, typically produces between 2 to 4 cobs iirc).

Living off the Land would no longer give bonus to harvested amount, but would reduce the minimum harvestable amount from 1 at rank 1 to 3 at rank 3. The idea would be to move the 'difficulty' from being mostly RNG-based to mostly time and work investment; for the most part your effort rewards you, rather than Lady Luck. Ideally, you'll end up needing two or more crops of each growable, offset by a few days to ensure a constant flow of produce due to the much slower growth rate and potentially lower quality harvests.

Potentially, if balanced (clearly no maths have been done here, just spit balling), it could take a lot more investment (time and effort) to develop a fully self-sufficient farm and it's seen as a long term, late game, goal. In the early game, other than growing a couple of seeds to help bolster hunting and foraging cans (that one steak meal a fortnight treat?), it wouldn't be viable for survival.

I think this might provide a scalable, more immersive, experience that can benefit both singleplayer and multiplayer farmers, whilst still maintaining some minor use to those not really interested in farming.

Food for thought?

 

[ElCabong]

Instead of 50%, bump it down to 33%. As it is now it's not worth messing with except for getting two of anything you harvest. If you find some seeds, plant them, and eventually you'll get two fruits out of it that you can add to your pantry. That's all farming is good for unless you put at least one more point into living off the land.

That could be what the developers want it to be. A viable farm needs to be something you put some points into. I don't have a problem with that.

 

[enragedcamel]

They had to heavily nerf farming because it was trivializing the food situation. And the only reason that was the case is because TFP has kept insisting on not adding a food decay mechanism like people have been asking for years now. If food decayed as it should, players wouldn't be able to hoard it like they do, and would need to keep track of it regularly.

Take a look at how the game Don't Starve does it. It goes like this:

• Every unit of food has a shelf life, depending on type of food.
  
• Raw foods spoil twice as fast as cooked foods.
  
• Foods spoil twice as fast in hot weather.
  
• Foods spoil half as fast in cold weather, or when refrigerated.
  
• When you combine stackable food items, the game calculates the new average of the stack, weighed based on quantity. So you can take one unit of berries that are about to spoil and mix them with a newly harvested stack, and the freshness of the stack decreases a little.
  

I think refrigeration could be an immersive gameplay mechanic here too. Early on you could build insulated chests and keep their interiors cold with regular supplies of snow, and later on once you have electricity you could craft a proper fridge that requires no maintenance. 

 

[Roland]

yet dumbing down of game mechanics - like farming - negates that effort

Dumbing down?

A19: Guaranteed return of all plants upon harvest. Very little thought needed about whether to craft crops into seeds or use crops for food. Zero risk of farm failure. Automatic replanting meant plant and forget food generator.

A20: 50% chance return of a plant so no guarantees on how your farm will continue. Careful planning and thought needed about how to use crops. Big risk of farm failure and then need to adapt and survive. Manual planting means you have to re-engage in the farming process each season.

Now you might think that planting is tedious and hate the philosophy of setback-adapt-recover gameplay in a survival game. But puting the two designs side-by-side there is no way you can convince me that A20 is more dumbed down than A19. But I'd like to hear your thoughts on exactly how you think things got dumbed down in farming in A20 over A19.

 

[SheeleMara]

 Talking about modlets adapting the 19.6 replant system earlier in the thread, how difficult would it be to make it to where there was a 50% chance for the plant to break during harvesting and then have the A20 50% chance of dropping a seed when breaks occur? It would still nerf the replanting system but perhaps not make so much extra work to keep it running mandatory? Or perhaps leave the option up to the server creator with a list of farming options, such as whether replanting occurs, breakage and seed percentage chance slider scales, or whether or not farming is even enabled? 

 

[Zeellott]

No, plant your seeds and gain the benefit from them. You'll get more seeds later to get your large scale self-sustaining farm once you do spec into LOTL 3. There is more variety now in the farming aspect of the game. You start out just gardening and using every seed you acquire to grow food. Later once you progress to the point where its viable you can start truly farming and crafting seeds and move from a model of harvesting what you need to fulfill daily needs to being able to stockpile in the future.

This seems like the best strategy moving forward.   I'm a vet, I will adapt. I did try a new game to see if my luck was better and had about a 25% seed drop rate harvesting with LOTL 2 so it was better then the 10 is % I was getting on my first Alpha20 start. I never had actual food problems tho because I have a system that almost guarantees bacon and eggs for dinner night one, its just very time consuming looking for eggs later in the game if that's still my main food source. Thats what a good farm by midgame would save me was time, it was never a difficulty thing for me. Overall I LOVE Alpha20. Thank you Fun Pimps!

 

[Zeellott]

Geez, that's massively unlucky. I think we found a Cain ..

But yeh, that's the collapse, with enough players and attempts, it will happen. And as you had several different crops going, as we all will, there's basically several "attempts" going on at once for every farmer; one of them failing is a lot more likely of course, in your case spuds.

This doesn't help anyone, I'm just emphasizing that it is sort of expected if the design allows for an unlucky failure.

LOL those damn spuds!! I'm having a better seed drop rate on a new playthru but still well below the 50%. Im going to use Rolands advice and not make seeds from crops until LOTL3 and just stockpile the crops, it just means Bacon and Eggs till endgame. It will be a CHICKENAPOCALYPSE!  MMWWAAHAHAHA!!!

 

[Zeellott]

You're right - one unrealistic system has been replaced with another. Essentially a sidestep rather than a step forward. I don't know, the improvements to the worldspace seems to emphasise the disparity between between the immersiveness of the world and the immersion-breaking mechanics behind the actions we can take in that world. 

Back to farming specifically, the need to replant does make sense for potatoes and pumpkins. Not so for other crops.  Below are some initial ideas...

Maybe increasing the amount of time it takes crops to grow, say from 2 days (I think it is now?) to a full week or even more, individually relative to their real world counterparts, decreasing seeds in loot rate (mice/rats ate them all?) and the crop to seed ratio (IRL 1 seed potato can potentially be cut up to grow several plants, but that would be too much so 1 potato = 1 seed potato?) and not treating all crops the same, eg. only potatoes and pumpkins require replanting every harvest?

You could introduce a small percentage chance for, say, a corn plant to die after harvest requiring a replant (so the same mechanic as now, just a much lower rate - LoL ranks could reduce this percentage chance, say, 12% no rank to 3% at rank 3 as examples). Harvestable amount would be random between 0 & 3 (1 corn plant, irl, typically produces between 2 to 4 cobs iirc).

Living off the Land would no longer give bonus to harvested amount, but would reduce the minimum harvestable amount from 1 at rank 1 to 3 at rank 3. The idea would be to move the 'difficulty' from being mostly RNG-based to mostly time and work investment; for the most part your effort rewards you, rather than Lady Luck. Ideally, you'll end up needing two or more crops of each growable, offset by a few days to ensure a constant flow of produce due to the much slower growth rate and potentially lower quality harvests.

Potentially, if balanced (clearly no maths have been done here, just spit balling), it could take a lot more investment (time and effort) to develop a fully self-sufficient farm and it's seen as a long term, late game, goal. In the early game, other than growing a couple of seeds to help bolster hunting and foraging cans (that one steak meal a fortnight treat?), it wouldn't be viable for survival.

I think this might provide a scalable, more immersive, experience that can benefit both singleplayer and multiplayer farmers, whilst still maintaining some minor use to those not really interested in farming.

Food for thought?

I think you are on the right track here, skill should help curb Lady Luck. Overall I like your idea, 7 days to grow seems more immersive with 1 crop to make a seed. It actually makes it worth grinding for, knowing you can get your crops going right away again with positive crop gain every week. And it would greatly reduce the overall amount of crops which the Fun Pimps seem to be aiming for. The best way to counter it will be way more crops growing then previously needed. That also seems more immersive.

 

[theFlu]

It will be a CHICKENAPOCALYPSE!  MMWWAAHAHAHA!!!

Well, at least our Cain has directed the murderous rage towards something more constructive...