PC Alpha 20 Dev Diary

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The consumer is the boss.

...hey that's me! 

Cool, TFP are all my employees.

So I hereby demand that they release A20 experimental bug-free yesterday.

...wait...do I have to pay them now that I'm the boss?

Will they continue to do their work properly, just because I've paid about 10 bucks a few years ago?

oops awww...ok I reconsiderd this employee-boss thingy aaaand,

it's okay TFP take all the time you need 😬
Pretty sure you owe them a pay rise to 😁

 
Also what could be cool in a future update, able to check and uncheck what traders you want to see in the world. (rekt is so annoying)

Thanks for reading!

 
There is a fundamental difference between being an employee and an employer. There are many things employees cannot do that employers can do. You just need to stop seeing TFP the development studio as an employee of some job because they are not. They are an independent entity that can make an estimated target and then choose to go past that estimate because they deem it necessary to deliver a product that is in good form rather than meet the target and deliver something poor and not have to worry about getting fired.

You are probably an employee and can only view situations from your own experience/point of view. TFP is not an employee. They are also committed to quality over meeting target estimates. 
I didn't intend for this to become personal, but if you want to dangle the ham, I'll bite. I'll start by saying that this is a fairly clear ad hominem fallacy. You're stating that my input is not valid, because I am not a company like TFP, but am only an employee, which has nothing to do with the validity, or lack thereof in my remarks. However, due to your status, I respect you, and am going to take the time to offer a proper response, rather than just give you a buzzer sound like this is some sort of msn chat room.

I am an employee; however, the reference was towards what it means to set expectations and the reactions to them, not TFP's existence as a boss or employee. I'm also a project manager. It's 'my' job to set the timelines, to establish expectations, and meet them. There are certainly times when I need to adjust timelines, and I need to manage those expectations with clients. In my job, I don't report to my "boss" aside from the odd beer Friday, I report directly to clients. The boss takes the payments, and as long as the payments are coming and complaints are reasonably limited, they're happy. I operate the same way TFP would, in that you don't set internal expectations, you set expectations directly with clients/customers/consumers, whichever term you want to use. I agree, my critique has been very critical of TFP, and I'm sure it bites a bit, I'm not trying to beat around the bush. One thing about setting expectations - you have to be clear.

Delays, internal or external, should be the exception, not the rule. with TFP, it is a rule - multiple delays happen every release. This screams to me that there is a lack of proper project management. Scopes are not being clearly defined, work is not being clearly estimated, and no deliverables are being formed. Before I have my programmers or designers write a single line of code, or look at a single reference, I have created a clear deliverable for them to be working on. This outlines exactly what features, content, or functions are going to be included in the next push. This is discussed as a team, we cover each of the tasks within the deliverable, estimate the work required to implement it, and discuss interactions and potential conflicts. I then take that discussion, and form it into the deliverable scope, with a breakdown for each part, who should be working on it, when they should be working on it, and when it's expected to be completed by. Then, and only then does work start. During the project I touch base with my developers once a week to twice a week to check the state of each of the items so that progress, and any delays are clearly known and tracked at all times. There is also a large block of time provided between expected completion, and next deliverable start so that a.) I have time to work on the next schedule, and b.) developers have time to iron anything out still lingering. If I was expecting to release a deliverable in a month, then my team should simply be testing and bug fixing. There should not be anything at all new added within the last 20% of a deliverable's timeline.

As a project manager, I also fully understand "quality concern". But this is taken into account when designing the deliverables. If something isn't up to allowable quality by the set dates, that means either the scope was breached, or the work required was underestimated to the point that not even the extra allowances were enough to cover it. as I mentioned, this can certainly happen - but not within the last 20% of a cycle, as everything should either be completed, or near completion before this point. So if there is a delay, it should be a well understood delay. Multiple delays means many things have gone wrong, which typically means the deliverable was too large to properly establish and estimate. At any point during a project, I can state all cores of what the project will be once it's complete, what each deliverable (or 'part', or 'release') of it will contain, and an outline of anticipated completion times for each deliverable.

And while TFP cannot be fired, it can go bankrupt. So I don't really see how that's an easier risk than getting fired, and shouldn't be taken as seriously. An employee can get a new job, the business is gone. I certainly appreciate your disregard for random people's discussions regarding a project's progress, though actions do speak louder than words. I'm not the one repeatedly adding delays to deliverables. 

I love the game, I love the content, and I currently do want to continue supporting it. I simply explained what I believe is causing the failure to meet expectations based on my professional experience and training. If proper project management were occurring, we would not be seeing the types of regular delays we are, among other things. I said earlier I didn't want to turn this into a discussion about what project management is and means, but like a feral knocking at my front door: if you're going to try to call me out on my home ground, I'm going to have to answer. TFP can run things however they want, but it doesn't mean the criticism is invalid.

 
I love how the conversations in here get all existential just before the release of a new Alpha.

It's kinda like the build up here in the tropics

It slowly gets hotter and sweatier for months until everyone is begging for the rain.  Tempers flare and words are said but when the first rains come all is forgotten and the world is right again.

So come on TFP... Bring the rain!

 
I'm also a project manager.


Of what? What product are you producing? Is it a video game? I'd like to know exactly how similar your job and our project manager's job is and whether your deliverables are at least on the same scale or even relatable to the deliverables our project manager is overseeing. Your general description of what you do is very similar to what I witness as I "see" TFP work. They have a very similar structure in place that you describe. I also am privy to the reports that are posted for completed deliverables and workflow appears to me to be in a good place and not bogged down at all. There is quite a lot of instant collaboration that comes up as artists or level designers need a programmer to make something happen that has them snagged and I'm actually quite impressed with how fluid the team is across different departments.

Your assumption is that there is little to no project management simply because in a forum one of the owners will say that they are certain things should get done by [Date] and then that date happens. I'm actually surprised that as a professional in the industry you would take such musings as official dates. If they are stated then I post them as estimates but TFP doesn't create official deadlines on the internet. They keep those deadlines and any adjustments to them internally. What about you? Do you post your official target dates anywhere online for anyone to view?

As a project manager, I also fully understand "quality concern". But this is taken into account when designing the deliverables.


Again, we would need to know the industry you are coming from. There are differences in complexity and while the individual parts that each of the programmers are easily accounted for in terms of time at the start, A20 as a whole is immensely complex. You would probably want to do a smaller update as your answer. TFP doesn't want to do that but that by itself doesn't mean they are just haphazardly throwing together whatever because it sounds cool.

And while TFP cannot be fired, it can go bankrupt.


They are at the opposite end of the spectrum from bankruptcy which, by the way, is an excellent sign that they are managing things well.

I simply explained what I believe is causing the failure to meet expectations based on my professional experience and training.


And I let you know that you are wrong based on my insider view of their operations which despite your professional experience you don't have and are just guessing at because they they decided to release in December instead of October 31.

(They could have released on October 31 but chose not to.)

 
Facepunch studios. Rust is updated each and every month. It also started in EA in 2013 and was "gold" Feb 2018. 

I love 7 Days to Die -- it's my favorite game, by far. I've been playing since Sept 9, 2013. But TFPs are at the other end of the spectrum from Facepunch. Can't you at least admit that professionals are able to meet timelines? It's juvenile to hide behind "We can't miss a deadline if we don't make one." All you're really saying is, "We have no idea how long stuff will take because we're not professional enough to know" or something like that. 

I love 7 Days to Die in spite of the dev team. I'll keep playing and be excited for each new release. But I don't have to keep defending them for their poor work output. 

One question for all you: How'd you like to get monthly updates -- both small and large -- on 7 Days? Don't tell me it's not possible as that's exactly what Facepunch delivers on Rust. Hell, I'd settle for twice a year updates, but if history is any guide, I'm sure TFPs would have trouble hitting those deadlines.

 
(Setting in the back of the car.) Whhhyyyyy, are we there yet?


Because they felt it needed more work. There are many examples in the industry of studios who release incomplete updates simply because they were directed to release on the date that was given ready or not. In this case there was no official date given-- only an estimate and when that date came they decided to keep working on it internally rather than release it to experimental as it was.

 
I'm a bit on the fence TBH, I mean I like TFP but not sure if I Love them... 

Tell ya what...buy me a beer and we can get to know one another a bit more... ;)

 
One question for all you: How'd you like to get monthly updates -- both small and large -- on 7 Days? Don't tell me it's not possible as that's exactly what Facepunch delivers on Rust. Hell, I'd settle for twice a year updates, but if history is any guide, I'm sure TFPs would have trouble hitting those deadlines.
Don't they also automatically reset the servers every month and every month you start at zero?  Not sure I would like to have a game where if live forces me to take an extended break, I come back and everything has been reset to zero....

 
Of what? What product are you producing? Is it a video game? I'd like to know exactly how similar your job and our project manager's job is and whether your deliverables are at least on the same scale or even relatable to the deliverables our project manager is overseeing.
This goes back to ad hominem, however if it puts your mind at ease knowing - my developers create office software. Primarily for inventory management, client/contact management, advertising software, and automated analysis software. Most projects range from 1-2 years, though we do offer live (ongoing) development, and software modification solutions. I started as a programmer for the company, and worked my way up through team lead, manager, and project manager.
 

A20 as a whole is immensely complex. You would probably want to do a smaller update as your answer. TFP doesn't want to do that but that by itself doesn't mean they are just haphazardly throwing together whatever because it sounds cool.
If delays are happening, project management is failing. I'm not saying it's the PM's fault either, or any individual's fault. Though if this is because of the scope of a specific deliverable is making it unable to be reasonably estimated, then the scope should be decreased for more understanding and clearer management. As a developer, I cannot understate the amount of stress I went under due to unclear scopes and lack of specific timelines. It meant I never knew when something should be done, if I'm going too slow, if I'm going too fast and start causing bottlenecks to occur which cause stress on other developers. I eventually had a stress induced stroke because of poor project management. I remember one project where there was only two deliverables set for an entire year and a half project (imagine), and it was nauseating the amount of communication required wasting time and creating stress between developers trying to keep track of where everything was.

A deliverable shouldn't ever have a specific 'size', or specific 'timeline'. A deliverable should be a set of features, or functions which are dependent on each other. A single deliverable should be one "system" if you will. You should be able to look at a deliverable and say "yea, that fits into a box".  For example, in A20, "Weapons, Trader progression, Loot progression" is a nice little box. Everything is related to each other, and it's all part of the same system. "Terrain improvements, Biome difficulty, Random gen update" is another nice little box. These having nothing to do with the prior box, but would require the same kind of resources. I don't have your inside view, I can't say what all the employees specialties or divisions are, so I can't create the exact boxes the TFP team would need, but the key is 'logical boxes'. When I look over the A20 updates - while I love all the stuff coming. It's not a logical box. You have some building systems work, some AI system work, some quest system rework, new content additions, a bit of everything.

As far as deliverables being "haphazardly [thrown together]". There has never been a clear outline provided of what is going to be included, what the goal looks like, and features that seem core are often either abandoned in idea, or removed. This applies not only to the game as a whole, but each deliverable. One cycle "We're going to be adding 'x' to this deliverable", end of cycle "'x' has been pushed to next deliverable", then, maybe it just never comes up again. Deliverable outlines are not being either established or followed, at the very least in how they're portrayed to users.
 

They are at the opposite end of the spectrum from bankruptcy which, by the way, is an excellent sign that they are managing things well


You keep changing the goalposts on this one. Remember that the initial point had nothing to do with being an employee, or an employer. It has to do with setting expectations, failing to meet expectations, and the reactions people have to said failed expectations within a common and understandable scenario. I also never made any sort of indication that TFP is in any sort of financial difficulty, only that that bankruptcy is a threat to 'any' company for failing to provide to clients, as being fired is a threat to 'any' employee who fails to provide to their employer.

 

And I let you know that you are wrong based on my insider view of their operations which despite your professional experience you don't have and are just guessing at because they they decided to release in December instead of October 31
My observations have nothing to do with this one particular deliverable. My observations are from, well, now, years of experience with TFP and deliverable dates showing a consistent issue, how questions are answered (or not) in developer posts/videos (showing lack of defined project scope), and the release posts which are updated on the fly with features being added/removed, sometimes planned, then sometimes pushed back (showing lack of deliverable scope).

Honestly, as far as interpretation goes of things being 'haphazard' goes, is due to how often TFP re-write history. They remove or delete information that they feel is no longer correct or relevant instead of clarifying it's state, and why in addition to the old information. Sometimes it's small things like on the first page here, changing the date of the expected release, deleting the old one as if it there never was an older timelines, sometimes it's more serious like the removal of the first video explaining the game's outline from kickstarter since the scope keeps changing. The one question that keeps coming up that's never had an answer is "what is gold for TFP?".

 
Because they felt it needed more work. There are many examples in the industry of studios who release incomplete updates simply because they were directed to release on the date that was given ready or not. In this case there was no official date given-- only an estimate and when that date came they decided to keep working on it internally rather than release it to experimental as it was.
Well maybe this is solution? well honstly better to get few thing more often - 1 time add guns, after 2 weeks hd zombies etc. Well this is too late in A20 sitution. So maybe devs will do this in their next game.

Of what? What product are you producing? Is it a video game? I'd like to know exactly how similar your job and our project manager's job is and whether your deliverables are at least on the same scale or even relatable to the deliverables our project manager is overseeing. Your general description of what you do is very similar to what I witness as I "see" TFP work. They have a very similar structure in place that you describe. I also am privy to the reports that are posted for completed deliverables and workflow appears to me to be in a good place and not bogged down at all. There is quite a lot of instant collaboration that comes up as artists or level designers need a programmer to make something happen that has them snagged and I'm actually quite impressed with how fluid the team is across different departments.

Again, we would need to know the industry you are coming from. There are differences in complexity and while the individual parts that each of the programmers are easily accounted for in terms of time at the start, A20 as a whole is immensely complex. You would probably want to do a smaller update as your answer. TFP doesn't want to do that but that by itself doesn't mean they are just haphazardly throwing together whatever because it sounds cool.

And I let you know that you are wrong based on my insider view of their operations which despite your professional experience you don't have and are just guessing at because they they decided to release in December instead of October 31.
Well i can't split in parts so :

1. Well there is a diffrent ways to manage to create games. When i was studing a one professor told : one time i was asking well know salesman about how they manage to get so good income by selling "farmers thing". He told he know nothing about farmers things , he sold a lot of thing. He don't need to know how this work just how to sell this. So most projects are similiar. Not this same but similiar. 

2. Well that will be similar to  before: i think A20 is too big. better option would be to split in two parts and 1 part release maybe in May ( idk how many they had done) and another part now as A21.  Well i think new models of guns and zombie woudn't destroy anything. Well they want to release 1 patch per year so people are furiouse this is logical.  So they will finish this game maybe after 4 5 years. But what about new game? i'm now sure 100% that will be not sandbox similiar to 7dtd. So if we wnat to see something similiar we need to wait dunno 10 years perchaps?

 
Is it too late to report on the bug tracker? I found an issue where if you enter the interface of a shotgun turret, SMG turret, dart trap, electric timer relay, motion sensor, or spotlight, the ability to nerdpole or pick up frames is severely crippled. In other words, your camera has to be in a very specific position to pick up or place frames, and sometimes it won't let you do this at all. A simple relog fixes this.
I tried this with spotlight and shotgun turret and saw no issue.

 
This goes back to ad hominem


Only if you assume that I think creating office software is contemptable somehow. I don't and I wasn't trying to set you up for a personal attack based on your industry. As I said, I think that the way you create projects and set workflow is probably different for office software and game software and your experience might not jive exactly with what needs to happen or does happen in a video game studio. You are the one who has set yourself up as knowing what is good or bad based upon your experience so exactly what your experience entails is definitely part of the discussion and not simply an ad hominem fallacy to be ignored.

My son is a programmer in the event planning industry and from what he has shown me, his project cycles and workflow are quite a bit different than what I observe at TFP as well and it isn't a straight across comparable thing to say that what works and can be designated successful and right in one sphere is the same for the other.

If delays are happening, project management is failing.


If the update happens in a time frame that TFP is completely happy with is it still failure? If internally they were hopeful for October 31st because a Halloween release for a horror game would be cool but actually anytime before the end of the year was still acceptable for their goals did they really fail?  If they would have seen missing the October 31st date as a failure they most certainly would have released on that date and dealt with any blowback for needing to force restarts. But they are still within their internal timeline for when A20 must get pushed out so really they haven't missed anything. 

I'm not claiming that their project management is perfect. Of course, there can always be improvement and they do have those kinds of meetings as well where they look at their workflow and look at the management of the development cycle and look for ways to be better and improve. 

You keep changing the goalposts on this one. Remember that the initial point had nothing to do with being an employee, or an employer. It has to do with setting expectations, failing to meet expectations, and the reactions people have to said failed expectations within a common and understandable scenario. I also never made any sort of indication that TFP is in any sort of financial difficulty, only that that bankruptcy is a threat to 'any' company for failing to provide to clients, as being fired is a threat to 'any' employee who fails to provide to their employer.


    No I haven't. You drew the analogy that an employee who misses a deadline too often gets fired. I pointed out that TFP is not an employee. You then clarified that a company that misses deadlines too often could go bankrupt because their clients are angry at not being well provided for. I then answered that the result of TFP's development practices is that they are about as far away from bankruptcy as you can get.

     They aren't just lucky. The game isn't good and people's favorite source of entertainment in spite of them. I'm saying that the results they have created both in terms of art (their game) and solvency (their business) speak loudly to a successful (albeit not perfect) model for development-- or at least a model of development which works for them. It may be counterintuitive to your experience in your field but results don't lie and they have results in Spades.

     If they have one failing in the philosophy of release dates it is that they get excited thinking about their fans playing the new update and then when they start interacting with them on the forum or during a stream they say something that they hope they can do because they know how excited and happy that would make everyone but it isn't necessarily reflective of their internal timeline window. Could Rick have come down hard on the entire team and said, "I know that we have more time that we can spend on this update but I said October 31st so lets crunch and get something out by that date no matter what."? Yes, he could have done so but he didn't. He said that we are still well within our acceptable release window so lets get it done right and not worry about an informal estimate I said during the stream.

 
i think A20 is too big


It is exactly the size it is meant to be. TFP has tried in the past doing smaller updates and it didn't work for them. What they have been doing works great for them and is obviously sustainable financially. No method is perfect and people will be critical of these large updates. But it isn't going to change. Only threat of bankruptcy would force a change and like I said...we are at the other end of the spectrum on that account.

So thanks everyone for the professional and lay advice but just stick to playing the game and giving feedback about gameplay and leave the business decisions to the guys that are observably doing a fantastic job at it. If it helps ease your minds, Joel and Rick were successful millionaire businessmen before they ever started TFP and they have brought their experience running a successful business to bear and we can see the fruits of their practices. I get that you might want a smaller update and more often, and someone else is happy to restart every month for monthly updates, and someone else wants TFP to hit an estimated release date on time. Thanks for your input. TFP is constantly looking at ways to improve what they do in a way that works for them so that they can continue to deliver content as awesome as 7 Days to Die for years and years to come.

 
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