PC Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Doomofman]

The patch notes will  be released on the day the Streamer weekend begins which would be December 3rd in your scenario. You'll have all weekend to peruse them before the update hits on whatever Monday it hits.

There have been no major changes to the skill trees. 

Drones don't fire anything that could hurt anyone or anything.

Does the drone not throw shade?

 

[Roland]

Does the drone not throw shade?

Okay, you might get your feelings mildly hurt.

 

[BFT2020]

you forgot one.

C) TFP could finish up what is already planned and move on to greener pastures and let the community add custom POIs as have always been doing (many people out there would love to share their customs).

I may even dip my toes in the water....Heck, if you asked me 6 months ago if I would ever consider modding 7D2D on my own, I would have laughed.

Okay, you might get your feelings mildly hurt.

Is that based on Robotics perk level?  

 

[Blake_]

I hope with workshop support we can add individual POI's that are rated by the community. The POI packs we have now are mostly great but there are few stinkers in the mix.

Empyrion has implemented a lot of community POI into the game. They are of course polished by the devs to fit the standard before implementation. That system is very ingenious and could prove useful for 7dtd in the future when all the tools come online.

 

[Matt115]

you know how it goes... the world is full of artists (and yet cant draw or paint) and professionals and experts (but have never studied the field they claim to be in) and....

but agreed i hope for a rating system as well.

Well i think it is good- i know a lot about medival metods of tortures but i don't use them in practics.... but thx @unholyjoe i will try soon^^ @SnowDog1942 do you want to be volunteer? i have nice whip ^^

 

[meganoth]

I agree that while A20 RWG promises significant and exciting advancements, that players are still going to eventually find it repetitive. The human brain is pretty good at finding patterns. I suspect even the randomness introduced by Parts will feel the same after a while.

Several months back I did some analysis. Using a variety of map generators, I was seeing 8k maps with 2,500 to 3,500 POIs being placed depending on the number and size of cities desired. A19 (vanilla) has around 500 POIs. A20 is adding how many new vanilla POIs... around 200... so 700 total? If the map needs 2,500 POIs, then you're looking at roughly 2,500 / 700 = 3 to 4 copies of each POI to perhaps 3,500 / 700 = 5 copies of each POI.

Let's throw in the CompoPack. Yes, this is going to assume that all the CP POIs are placeable. Many are quite large and do not place well and/or are very thematic/unique and may get excluded for matters of taste.

For A19 vanilla (~500 POIs) and CP 47 (~500 POIs) we get around 2,500 / 1,000 to 3,500 / 1,000 = 2.5 to 3.5 copies of each POI. For A20, let say for the sake of discussion CompoPack 48 is approaching 700. Now we're talking maybe 1,400 POIs total. 2,500 / 1,600 to 3,500 / 1,400 = 1.7 to 2.5 copies of each POI. (Better!)

So, take a step back here. Even with hundreds more POIs, we're still probably going to struggle to have more than two semi-unique cities per map. Trying to reduce repetition by increasing the number of POIs make sense, but numerically speaking it seems to me we need to add more POIs than TFP and the community has created to-date.

Other things that will make a map more repetitive will be:

• increasing the number of cities
  
• increasing the size of cities
  
• increasing the size of the map
  

The first two bullets often have me trying to think of ways to make the Wilderness more of an attraction for play, but the city is so appealing to players. Cities have dense-packed POIs, so there's a high concentration of loot and zombies, plus that's where you find the traders. The high tier POIs are usually in cities too. Players don't really leave the cities, except maybe to mine, but then they don't usually go far.

The last bullet I think is worthy of some discussion too. If you go to a 16k map, you've quadrupled the map area. The need to place 2,500 POIs turned into a need to place 10,000 POIs. Assuming the goal would be to make unique cities on 16k maps then... well... maybe AI needs to be making POIs.

Certainly, and this will lead to some interesting placement issues. Finding two Fire Departments next to each other is undesirable. How does RWG know that two different Fire House POIs should not go next to each other? Finding a bunch of fast-food restaurants next to each other is normal. Finding a bunch of McDonalds next to each other would be silly. How does the RWG know which POIs are in the same chain? It can know not to use the same POI, but functional equivalents are a challenge.

PREGEN 1 to 3 in A19 seem to have about 1280, 1360 and 1170 pois respectively, those should be the typical values for vanilla 8k maps.

So for vanilla we should be roughly at a 1:2 ratio in A20, if density doesn't change

 

[SnowDog1942]

Well i think it is good- i know a lot about medival metods of tortures but i don't use them in practics.... but thx @unholyjoe i will try soon^^ @SnowDog1942 do you want to be volunteer? i have nice whip ^^

mmmmm smack me with that whip...

 

[MechanicalLens]

I hope with workshop support we can add individual POI's that are rated by the community. The POI packs we have now are mostly great but there are few stinkers in the mix.

Like that one that is guarded by dozens of zombie animals, has an underground tunnel made out of steel, and has various locked steel vault doors guarding the final room that only has a wall safe and a toilet in it?

 

[stallionsden]

Like that one that is guarded by dozens of zombie animals, has an underground tunnel made out of steel, and has various locked steel vault doors guarding the final room that only has a wall safe and a toilet in it?

Which poi is that lol

 

[MechanicalLens]

Which poi is that lol

I don't remember, I have faint memories of it though lol Given how some Compopack POI's are I wouldn't be surprised if it's more than just a fever dream

 

[stallionsden]

I don't remember, I have faint memories of it though lol Given how some Compopack POI's are I wouldn't be surprised if it's more than just a fever dream

must a been a old cp pack. you played

 

[MechanicalLens]

must a been a old cp pack. you played

Yeah probably, it was a couple years ago.

 

[stallionsden]

Yeah probably, it was a couple years ago.

Argh they all been gone thru. No more t3 vault locked doors in t1 pois.

Still each time they get gone thru also. 

 

[Aldranon]

Anyone else feel that TFP are going for this weekend to release?  It would be something to be thankful for on Thanksgiving weekend.

If it was when would we know?

 

[MechanicalLens]

Anyone else feel that TFP are going for this weekend to release?  It would be something to be thankful for on Thanksgiving weekend.

If it was when would we know?

Roland has already confirmed that this Thanksgiving is not going to happen. It even says so on the front page.

 

[unholyjoe]

Anyone else feel that TFP are going for this weekend to release?  It would be something to be thankful for on Thanksgiving weekend.

If it was when would we know?

way before now

 

[faatal]

@faatal how is life? Do you feel like talking about those MF? I wanted to ask, do you know if the Animal tracker sprites have already been fixed for a20 ?

It strikes me as a possible low priority that it really is everything but that for us players. I mean the code works, but we could only see map/compass sprites for chickens, rabbits and deers. Bear with me here. Snakey question right there. Down onto the rabbit hole. Let's not chicken out and answer me plz.

There are currently 10 high MFs.

Looks like Zack fixed the tracker last week.

 

[Aldranon]

There are currently 10 high MFs.

Looks like Zack fixed the tracker last week.

I predict that TFP will use their EXTRA Super Sain, Jedi powers of Epic'ness this coming week.  Streamers will showcase 26-28 Nov and I will be doing Chuck Norris impersonations starting Nov 29 in A20!

Love and peace (except for zombie hordes) will fill the world to overflowing.  World leaders will hug each other with tears in there eyes and Covid will leave this planet, head held low!

 

[zztong]

PREGEN 1 to 3 in A19 seem to have about 1280, 1360 and 1170 pois respectively, those should be the typical values for vanilla 8k maps.

So for vanilla we should be roughly at a 1:2 ratio in A20, if density doesn't change

Interesting. KingGen (my opinion) really likes cities so chews through more POIs. Nitrogen (my opinion) spent more time on a balance between city and the country, so a bit less dense. It sounds like vanilla is less dense than that, which really helps the ratio. But also vanilla (A19) doesn't always use all the POIs at its disposal. For instance, you can end up with maps that have no skyscrapers.

 

[Jost Amman]

Interesting. KingGen (my opinion) really likes cities so chews through more POIs. Nitrogen (my opinion) spent more time on a balance between city and the country, so a bit less dense. It sounds like vanilla is less dense than that, which really helps the ratio. But also vanilla (A19) doesn't always use all the POIs at its disposal. For instance, you can end up with maps that have no skyscrapers.

What are you talking about?? Both KingGen and Nitrogen have a ton of options to customize City vs. Countryside and all that stuff.  :suspicious: