PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[meganoth]

My issue, that i have been addressing to a small extent with mods, is that there is no end game. minecraft sorta has an end game with the ender dragon. But there are a lot of things to do in minecraft. 7 days is a weird game for me because i get very hyped after a release, play non stop for a week, then after i hit a point i quit. Once you hit the high end tiers of equipment why continue? In linear games you defeat the boss, put the game away, then move on. With 7 days it gets tedious after a bit.  7 days has some amazing things that separate it from other games. The pois are astonishing. It feels like i am in real world buildings. I know this has been improved. The jumpscares and danger in the pois are good as well, and horde night is fun. 

Is that endgame goal "ender dragon" really so much better? You play for a week, kill the ender dragon and then you quit because the game says you are finished. In both cases you had fun for a week.

Now having a goal the game sets up for you but which you are able to ignore or continue after reaching it is definitely a bit better because it gives you one more option. No question about it. But I think the secret sauce in 7d2d, minecraft, factorio and other games that last for hundreds of hours is not that single goal. 

I have found some amazing solutions in mods, and i think they give insight to how the end game development should go. The game falls apart with the end game and with the quests. with the quest i get annoyed when i go into the same poi multiple times. When a poi is raided by the player those quests should be removed from the pool, if not permanently then at least with a cooldown. Or have poi specific quest chains. Once they are cleared then you go back and set something up, or clear out bandits/ ferials, or move in. 

AFAIK solving the multiple-POI-problem is part of the RWG overhaul done for A20. It will certainly improve the game, though anyone having played thousands of hours will know all POIs. There is no way I will ever see waterworks with new eyes

This dilemma can only be solved somewhat by the modding community. Only the community has the man power to get a reasonable influx of new POIs into the game that will make a difference. All hail compopack!

Age of oblivion found a crazy solution that i think should be made in the real game: citizen collection quests. Traders giving too much ammo? nerf that. People hating the nerf? well have  a special quest chain for trader joel to collect brass, lead, and gunpowder so that everyone gets ammo.  The reward is some xp, but all ammo rewards will be doubled for quests. Give the traders a merchant level, that gets improved if you do quests for them. 

Dynamic random quests would help too, like have courier npcs running around and getting into trouble, maybe give them smoke bombs that indicate they are in danger and you can run up and give them first aid/rob them. Stuff like that, stuff that makes the world more active. 

House flipper is a popular youtube content. The game is a crafting game, if npcs come into the game, then why not have a crafting element? why not flip and fortify houses? Have a community style gameplay that state of decay tries to do but messess up because they suck. 

merchant level aka reputation and NPCs are both features that seem to be on TFP's To-Do list, just how much NPCs will factor into the game, no idea.

 

[BFT2020]

My issue, that i have been addressing to a small extent with mods, is that there is no end game. minecraft sorta has an end game with the ender dragon. But there are a lot of things to do in minecraft. 7 days is a weird game for me because i get very hyped after a release, play non stop for a week, then after i hit a point i quit. Once you hit the high end tiers of equipment why continue? In linear games you defeat the boss, put the game away, then move on. 

In 7D2D's Alpha 20 state, there is no defined end game.  We might see an end game with the Duke down the road, once bandits are introduced and the story fleshed out.

However, there is nothing preventing us the players on setting our own endgame scenario

This is an example of several ways I went about playing Alpha 19

• Dead is dead
  
• Game ends when I lose during a horde night
  
• Playing as a strength character
  
• Playing as an agility character
  
• Playing as an intel character
  
• Playing as a character not going over 5 in any ability tree
  
• Perking into survival skills and not into combat skills
  
• Building a base from the ground up
  
• Converting a POI into a horde base
  
• Having a single base as both my main and horde night
  
• Moving to a new location after each blood moon horde
  
• Going all stealth
  
• Using only the ammo I can find looting
  
• Only selling items to traders I crafted (and only using items I crafted myself)
  
• How long can I go with only using traps and arrows to defend my horde base
  
• Shorter days
  
• No mining
  
• Desert only
  
• Wasteland only
  
• Horde night every 4 nights
  

The list goes on and on.  But it depends on the person really.  If your goal is to get the shiny stuff, then once you get the shiny stuff, the interest level drops off considerably.  If however you like to come up with challenges for you to do, then the list is endless.  There are more challenges I want to do that I haven't yet (horde every night, pistol and knives only) that will keep me playing this game further down the road regardless if no new additional content comes out after today (which is not the case).

 

[bachgaman]

And I'm telling you that since this is about personal perception, the fact you're trying to showcase your own point of view as the "truth", by also gauging other players' supposed preferences, that is simply preposterous. As I said, speak for yourself and try not to deflect by saying my reply is "stereotypical".

Your reaction to my phrase that, IN MY OPINION, I am far from being alone in my perception of endgame (which is not unreasonable) was really very funny and stereotyped. You triggered and, according to a pre-prepared template, began to write about the fact that I use "WE" to prove something there 

To sum it up: you think that competitive gaming is the best way to balance 7D2D, instead I think it should also take into account the "fun factor" and role playing.

It is very interesting from what you have drawn such conclusions. And how someone's "fun" can be related to balance. In addition, I am sure that bow lovers would have a lot more fun in a balanced game. I myself would not mind playing with the bow, if that made sense.

But it is obvious that other tasks are more important than collecting feathers when you don't go for agility and bows. It was you who said feathers are hard to find and that was a reason for you not to use a bow.

Improve perks of a certain type of weapon is self-limitation, I very rarely do this

I'm not sure if you noticed but that "more important tasks" sounds really snobbish (at least to me).  

?

Lets, put it another way, another comment that is impolite without necessity.

What is impolite?

ince enemies get stronger in sync with your level progress you may as well need a sturdy concrete base on day 7

They don't get stronger. If you are talking about blood moons, then they also scale very badly. I played until day 14 and both blood moons were almost completely boring and easy.

How do you know that default is incredibly easy for newbies? DId you really observe say a hundred newbies without giving them any hints and they soared through the game?

Because I was a newbie not too long ago. The ones I play with in the group too. Don't you think it's ridiculous to demand research and statistics on every opinion expressed?

I somehow knew you would feel called upon proving you get all that stuff so early by posting some pictures,

although I never said I didn't believe you. 

Well those pictures don't "prove" anything cause there's no way to say how your game options are tweaked,

or even whether you gave yourself all that stuff via console command.

But that's not the point, and I'm not saying that.

I truly believe that's your actual real and straight game,

as you can believe me when I tell you that I never have all that stuff that early ingame (and no thx I'm not lazily hiding in the bushes all the time...)

(or should I post some pictures of a trader's inventory without any full-auto guns or impact drivers to prove it? )

So it's what I said. Different games. Pointless discussion. I'm out. 

It seemed to me that multiple statements about the different games we play are a sign of distrust.

 

[meganoth]

...

Improve perks of a certain type of weapon is self-restraint, I very rarely do this

If you want to play stealth there is really no alternative to perking into stealth and using a bow. Only after finding a silencer you get more options.  What does that have to do with what you usually do?

?

What is impolite?

For example using derogatory terms and similes for any activity someone else does is impolite and bad discussion culture.  

They don't get stronger. If you are talking about blood moons, then they also scale very badly. I played until day 14 and both blood moons were almost completely boring and easy.

Because I was a newbie not too long ago. The ones I play with in the group too. Don't you think it's ridiculous to demand research and statistics on every opinion expressed?

Did I demand it for every opinion? No, I demanded it for exactly one opinion stating a fact about ALL newbies.

 

[bachgaman]

If you want to play stealth there is really no alternative to perking into stealth and using a bow. Only after finding a silencer you get more options.  What does that have to do with what you usually do?

I don't want to play stealth for the sake of playing stealth. I want to use stealth as a tool for further development and survival at a distance

For example using derogatory terms and similes for any activity someone else does is impolite and bad discussion culture.  

What "derogatory terms and similes" have I used? I dont understand

Did I demand it for every opinion? No, I demanded it for exactly one statemant made about ALL newbies.

I'm afraid to say for sure, because you can request new statistics, but it seems to me that this is not the first time you do this. And not only you.

I didn't say "ALL", I didn't even use the plural in "newbie". But from my experience it is

 

[Roland]

I understand what you are talking about, you are partly right, but there are different degrees of deepening in minmax. You are talking about the most extreme form of the fulfillment of this desire

Yes, I was talking about the most extreme on the spectrum. I also stated myself that there are degrees. By stating the most extreme, people can now read what you post and evaluate how you compare to the extreme. Going by your posts (I don't know you after all) I would say you are closer to the extreme end and I'm betting most who have read your viewpoint would agree. I mean not only can you not stand to play inefficiently you can't even stand to watch inefficient play. It is one of your admitted main objections to streamers and it makes so much sense and fits why you could never be part of that culture. 

Thus, you admit that bow and stealth are notoriously worse perks than barter and adventurer. Thanks. This was the topic of discussion.

Yeah, you win. Since efficiency is the only context that matters to you-- in those terms-- I fully admit that bow and stealth are worse perks than barter and adventurer. I also admit that by concentrating on bow and and stealth I would never be able to have a jeep, concrete base, best tools and weapons, and otherwise win the game under your conditions by day 7 on Warrior or higher difficulty.

Now the big question that has got to worry you is whether the developers of the game believe that efficiency is the only context for balance that matters. 

And here you amusingly avoid admitting that they are simply unbalanced.

And now I admit fully that they are simply unbalanced by your criteria. I completely believe you when you say you can achieve your win conditions by Day 7 with one particular combination of perks and play strategy but that you cannot replicate that using other combinations of perks and play strategies. My argument has ceased to be whether you are wrong or right about the balance of the game. You are 100% right. The perks are not all balanced against efficiency.

My own enjoyment of the game is completely unconditional upon whether one strategy is more or less efficient than another, however. In fact, my enjoyment of bow and stealth is due to the fact that it is less efficient because that offers a new experience and unlike you I don't have to work hard at all to ignore the fact that the way I am choosing to play is going to be slower and wasteful. So I really have no need or desire to avoid admitting that the imbalance as you have described it exists.

Individual examples of bad players do not help you in any way to prove that there is a balance in the game. I'm not obsessed with efficiency, I just like making good choices. And I enjoy playing well.

Do you realize that your very definition of what makes someone a bad player vs a good player just adds more evidence about how extreme you are in your views about efficiency? Not only are you obsessed but it has become the very definition of good and bad to you. "Good choices" are only those choices that are the most efficient. "Playing well" means purely that you are progressing as quickly as you can maximizing efficiency and minimizing waste. 

A streamer who pauses to talk to their chat is a bad player and makes poor choices because chatting with your audience doesn't help them advance their progression in any way.

A player who decides to focus on bow and stealth is a bad player because on day 7 they will be in rags crouching behind a bush while someone else who started at the same time and is a good player will have a truck and a machine gun.

A player is a good player if they mod out the trader so none exist in their game but a bad player if they leave the trader in but just choose to ignore or limit how they use the trader because then they are making inefficient choices and ignoring the best possible choices to advance as quickly as possible that are available to them.

I very much doubt that the developers are going to rebalance the game (the entire game needs to be rebalanced I believe you said) to suit you. They are not nearly so focused on the thing you hold most dear.

 

[JCrook1028]

in a normal game you get an AK-47 and several hundred ammo on day 2.

That's not a "normal" game, that's a speedrun game. Normal games don't include crucible and 4x4 by D7. You just prefer to speedrun it. Which is fine but that is also why the game gets boring to you, you do it the same way every time. Playing with "worse" methods increases the fun factor because it is new and challenging.

 

[Roland]

I don't think that speed of progression to "endgame" is anywhere in the job descriptions of a survivor in a zombie game.

Speed is in Bach's nature. He is not going to accept any condition that does not include speed of progression.

Fast progression = good player making correct strategic choices

Slow progression = bad player making poor strategic choices

For him, that is it. He cannot conceive of any other definition of good player vs bad player and being a good player is very important to him. No argument that tries to recontextualize the game in terms of something other than speed and efficiency of progression is simply not able to be processed or if it is it is dismissed immediately with disdain because then you are simply talking about how to play the game poorly again.

That's not a "normal" game, that's a speedrun game. Normal games don't include crucible and 4x4 by D7. You just prefer to speedrun it. Which is fine but that is also why the game gets boring to you, you do it the same way every time. Playing with "worse" methods increases the fun factor because it is new and challenging.

Speedrunners will be the folks we'll see a week after A20 drops asking, "Was that it?!"

They devour new content in days and then demand more. Meanwhile all the rest of us bad players will spend the next several months enjoying the new content and exploring all the changes. My goodness, it pays to be bad.

(Yes Bach, I know. I've amusingly and unwittingly admitted that I'm a bad player...)

 

[meilodasreh]

It seemed to me that multiple statements about the different games we play are a sign of distrust

No why? It is just a sign of...well...a discussion. Meaning: two people having different opinions which might be both valid, and one person wants to know why the other person is thinking different about the same.

If I thought you were just lying about, I would have quit it much earlier (or even didn't ask in the first place what you mean considering weapon balancing)

And as a conclusion I (we?) found out that our game settings must be so completely different, that it makes a total different game (experience).

(while the "you being insanely more lucky than me all the time" theory seems not valid) .

So we're not thinking different about the same, but about something different...making further discussion pointless of course.

So no distrust there, I actually even enjoyed it a little.

We both seem to come across as being somewhat angry or even poisonous sometimes for others.

I like to say it's just because of my angry-looking avatar, but maybe I have to admit that I like to be a bit sarcastic sometimes.

But not in this case. Thx again.

 

[JCrook1028]

you admit that bow and stealth are notoriously worse perks than barter and adventurer.

So in your eyes the trader is severely unbalanced yet you still go full hog into the perks to make it even more OP? Lmao, that's just stupid.

AFAIK the game is balanced (spreadsheets and all) around the default difficulty level.

Actually no, it's balanced around nomad and default is adventurer.

 

[JCrook1028]

I played until day 14 and both blood moons were almost completely boring and easy.

Well of course they are, that's only the 2nd horde.

Because I was a newbie not too long ago

Did you just respond to Dcsobral that you also had 8k hours in the game? Which is it, newbie recently or 8k hours?

 

[bachgaman]

Yes, I was talking about the most extreme on the spectrum. I also stated myself that there are degrees. By stating the most extreme, people can now read what you post and evaluate how you compare to the extreme. Going by your posts (I don't know you after all) I would say you are closer to the extreme end and I'm betting most who have read your viewpoint would agree. I mean not only can you not stand to play inefficiently you can't even stand to watch inefficient play. It is one of your admitted main objections to streamers and it makes so much sense and fits why you could never be part of that culture. 

If I were minmax, I would abuse all the exploits that the game teems with, but in many ways you're right, it's impossible to look at a bad game

Yeah, you win. Since efficiency is the only context that matters to you-- in those terms-- I fully admit that bow and stealth are worse perks than barter and adventurer. I also admit that by concentrating on bow and and stealth I would never be able to have a jeep, concrete base, best tools and weapons, and otherwise win the game under your conditions by day 7 on Warrior or higher difficulty.

Now the big question that has got to worry you is whether the developers of the game believe that efficiency is the only context for balance that matters. 

The funny thing is that the conversation initially began with a discussion of how useful the bow and stealth perks were. The funny thing is that the conversation initially began with a discussion of how useful the bow and stealth perks were. I have proven that fun is not proof of utility. After that, we could close this discussion. Not about whether the developers should do something about it. Reread the thread.

And now I admit fully that they are simply unbalanced by your criteria. I completely believe you when you say you can achieve your win conditions by Day 7 with one particular combination of perks and play strategy but that you cannot replicate that using other combinations of perks and play strategies. My argument has ceased to be whether you are wrong or right about the balance of the game. You are 100% right. The perks are not all balanced against efficiency.

My own enjoyment of the game is completely unconditional upon whether one strategy is more or less efficient than another, however. In fact, my enjoyment of bow and stealth is due to the fact that it is less efficient because that offers a new experience and unlike you I don't have to work hard at all to ignore the fact that the way I am choosing to play is going to be slower and wasteful. So I really have no need or desire to avoid admitting that the imbalance as you have described it exists.

You say "by your criteria", then tell us in what criteria they are balanced

Do you realize that your very definition of what makes someone a bad player vs a good player just adds more evidence about how extreme you are in your views about efficiency? Not only are you obsessed but it has become the very definition of good and bad to you. "Good choices" are only those choices that are the most efficient. "Playing well" means purely that you are progressing as quickly as you can maximizing efficiency and minimizing waste. 

A streamer who pauses to talk to their chat is a bad player and makes poor choices because chatting with your audience doesn't help them advance their progression in any way.

A player who decides to focus on bow and stealth is a bad player because on day 7 they will be in rags crouching behind a bush while someone else who started at the same time and is a good player will have a truck and a machine gun.

A player is a good player if they mod out the trader so none exist in their game but a bad player if they leave the trader in but just choose to ignore or limit how they use the trader because then they are making inefficient choices and ignoring the best possible choices to advance as quickly as possible that are available to them.

This is not "my definition", these are facts. If a player plays badly, makes bad choices, dies on low difficulty, builds a bad base, sorts things badly, or plans his actions badly, then this is a bad player. I do not humiliate anyone with this, it is a fact. If a person does something poorly, then he is bad at it

I very much doubt that the developers are going to rebalance the game (the entire game needs to be rebalanced I believe you said) to suit you. They are not nearly so focused on the thing you hold most dear.

Stop pulling phrases out of context and read in response to what I wrote this. The person said that all difficulty settings that go beyond the standard are not something to focus on when balancing

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

When I started playing in A15, I rushed everything. I wanted to get the best weapons, the best tools, and the best techs ASAP. I wanted to have a solid horde base that I could upgrade by Day 7. Over time that approach caused burn out. So I switched to my current playstyle which is simply doing whatever I feel like doing efficiency be damned. It's not unusual for me to spend the first blood moon or two on top of a POI ignoring the zombies because I did not feel like building a horde base and I don't enjoy shooting down at zombies. Even with this more relaxed playstyle, I typically end my games around Day 50 or so because I have purple Tier 3 weapons and a solid horde base. And so I start a new map or switch to another game.

All of that is to say, rushing progression or rushing base building is a choice. It's not about good players or bad players. It's about having fun. If you enjoy rushing progression more power to you. But it is not more valid than any other playstyle. It is a way to play the game, not the way to play the game. 

 

[meilodasreh]

My goodness, it pays to be bad.

new motto of my life

 

[bachgaman]

That's not a "normal" game, that's a speedrun game. Normal games don't include crucible and 4x4 by D7. You just prefer to speedrun it. Which is fine but that is also why the game gets boring to you, you do it the same way every time. Playing with "worse" methods increases the fun factor because it is new and challenging.

I would not say that I was speedrunning, but yes, I wasted no time (mostly)

Did you just respond to Dcsobral that you also had 8k hours in the game? Which is it, newbie recently or 8k hours?

Where did I write that I have 8k hours? You are sick? Stop wishful thinking, that's ridiculous

So in your eyes the trader is severely unbalanced yet you still go full hog into the perks to make it even more OP? Lmao, that's just stupid.

I did this race specifically to test my words after the recent controversy about the trader. Is it stupid? Do you seem to judge my "playstyle"? Oh oh oh how toxic

Well of course they are, that's only the 2nd horde.

Another answer without regard to context. This was said in response to the words that the power of the bloody moons allegedly scales with game progress.

 

[Burrfly]

Holy crap, if you would take all of bachgaman's posts from the last 8 pages and place it in a list you would have to scroll for 4 hours straight. Not to be mean  Just find it interesting that all of that 20GB of text is about how other people should play the game. Everyone should play however they like.

 

[bachgaman]

Holy crap, if you would take all of bachgaman's posts from the last 8 pages and place it in a list you would have to scroll for 4 hours straight. Not to be mean  Just find it interesting that all of that 20GB of text is about how other people should play the game. Everyone should play however they like.

These pages are not about that, you are mistaken.

 

[Roland]

When I started playing in A15, I rushed everything. I wanted to get the best weapons, the best tools, and the best techs ASAP. I wanted to have a solid horde base that I could upgrade by Day 7. Over time that approach caused burn out. So I switched to my current playstyle which is simply doing whatever I feel like doing efficiency be damned. It's not unusual for me to spend the first blood moon or two on top of a POI ignoring the zombies because I did not feel like building a horde base and I don't enjoy shooting down at zombies. Even with this more relaxed playstyle, I typically end my games around Day 50 or so because I have purple Tier 3 weapons and a solid horde base. And so I start a new map or switch to another game.

All of that is to say, rushing progression or rushing base building is a choice. It's not about good players or bad players. It's about having fun. If you enjoy rushing progression more power to you. But it is not more valid than any other playstyle. It is a way to play the game, not the way to play the game. 

Wow. You used to be such a good player, too...

 

[Laz Man]

This is not "my definition", these are facts. If a player plays badly, makes bad choices, dies on low difficulty, builds a bad base, sorts things badly, or plans his actions badly, then this is a bad player. I do not humiliate anyone with this, it is a fact. If a person does something poorly, then he is bad at it

Good and bad are very subjective terms.  If you want people to be open to your opinion/discussion, try not claiming things as "facts" that everyone should abide by and just objectively speak for yourself.  

 

[nielm269]

Good and bad are very subjective terms.  If you want people to be open to your opinion/discussion, try not claiming things as "facts" that everyone should abide by and just objectively speak for yourself.  

Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun.