PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

hiemfire said:
How to say one doesn't know jack squat about metallurgy and what bronze itself is without directly stating it... (Admittedly I know a slight bit more than jack squat.)

It is much simpler either to knock the rust off (a wet cloth, some sand or fine gravel and patience works) and cold shape it with a hammer into an improvised tool/weapon or melt rusty iron down and cast it for further forging than to try and do the research and trial/error that bronze (an alloy of copper and tin with varying grades, most of which are completely useless for tools and weapons, based on the proportion of the two metals) equipment would require. Bronze was replaced due to ease of acquisition of the needed materials and ease of converting the ores into forgeable ingots (don't have to blend 2 metals to make iron). Iron and steel are commonly available now, Bronze and it's component metals less so. 
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Now? well we have good tranport so yeah i must agree. but i was talking about rust -  ofc this my opinion only 90% but most of iron on surface is rusted in 7dtd and in mad max - so i quiet bad condition and can't be good source of iron. ofc it can be mined underground . in some places iron will be easier to find in some cooper. so i my opion bronze is still better idea that "pipe tools" do you can can image pipe axe? nope . ofc primitive iron ( simple) tools can work - like rebar fragment as pickax

jorbascrumps said:
Does it, though? I'd rather a wider breadth of activities than tool tiers. I don't personally see the value add of another tool tier. Remember, the auger and chainsaw makes 4 tiers already.
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well - for example - you have shotgun? you want find autoshotgun etc. so more tier = more time you will spend on game. in terraria you have a lot of tiers and you spend  a lot time on it. and honestly it  50% easier to add new axe that create new type of quest

 
Matt115 said:
and honestly it  50% easier to add new axe that create new type of quest
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You're right, it is easier. But TFP are (I assume) more interested in adding meaningful content over stuff like this. We've seen this before with the removal of things like gun parts and LBD. Sure scavenging for that one gun part took time - and had an element of fun to it - but what did it ultimately add to the game? Searching for the Forge Ahead book took time and all it accomplished was arbitrarily blocking progression at random (*). What does another tool tier add to the game? A shovel is a shovel. We have the tiers that we do now because each tier presents some form of tangible progression with tradeoffs between each tier. What unique benefit would another tier add? Kinda just feels like ticking off a box on a progression list to me.

Give me more quests and enemies to fight so that I'm more invested in digging up dirt to make my base.

* I did enjoy the euphoria brought on by finding the book

 
Zeal said:
I've actually been rather interested in how the quality system actually works, in regards to the difference between 1-6 and the tiers. Is it like a 50% upgrade per quality level and 25% per tier? If so, i wonder if the system will eventually get changed slightly to boost the higher tier items a bit more without making them OP.
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There's no single rule: every piece of equipment has its own configuration. That said, I cannot think of any case where an attribute change by anything but +10% per quality level, so a quality 6 has +50% over the base attribute of a quality 1. Mind you, everything above primitive tools has random stats which go from -15% to +15%, so a +15% quality one could have the same stats as a -15% quality 4.

But tier 0, 1, 2, and 3? That's balanced by hand without any clear rules as far as I can tell. In fact, it's a pet peeve of mine that the iron spear adds almost nothing to the stone spear, whereas, on the opposite end of the spectrum, each tier of the sledgehammer has a huge jump in stats.

And to confuse things even more, not all attributes change, and the stone axe has no equivalent at any other tier.

BFT2020 said:
Not sure why everyone has such a hardon for bronze tools really.  Yeah, bronze would be important if you are playing a civilization game where you started in the stone age and went all the way to modern era; but in a survival game based on today's technology?  Why would anyone want to go through the hassle of making bronze for tools or weapons?  If you got scrap iron or iron pieces, you would just do that since it is better than using bronze.  If you were surviving or rebuilding civilization, you would want to get iron and steel production back up first; then revisit bronze once you are in the age of building sculptures and medals 😉
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Assuming you know how to build forges to handle iron. And, on top of that, forges to handle steel. Another issue with iron is obtaining it, but I don't think we have to worry about that on a post-apocalyptic society, unless radiation is an issue (in which case, yeah, iron sucks). But, hey, most post-apocalyptic games assume there's scarcity in a world where less than 1% of the population has survived, which would just not be the case.

 
jorbascrumps said:
You're right, it is easier. But TFP are (I assume) more interested in adding meaningful content over stuff like this. We've seen this before with the removal of things like gun parts and LBD. Sure scavenging for that one gun part took time - and had an element of fun to it - but what did it ultimately add to the game? Searching for the Forge Ahead book took time and all it accomplished was arbitrarily blocking progression at random (*). What does another tool tier add to the game? A shovel is a shovel. We have the tiers that we do now because each tier presents some form of tangible progression with tradeoffs between each tier. What unique benefit would another tier add? Kinda just feels like ticking off a box on a progression list to me.

Give me more quests and enemies to fight so that I'm more invested in digging up dirt to make my base.

* I did enjoy the euphoria brought on by finding the book
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Gun parts where a placeholder for weapon mods, so they were not exactly removed as much as replaced with what they were meant to be all along.(*)

The important of tiers depends a lot of what kind of game one plays. On multiplayer servers where you play well into the hundreds of days it is particularly important to have a lot of tiers. Otherwise? Not so much. Take jawoodle's youtube playthroughs, for example. He plays up to day 71, or until he dies, whichever comes first. He has top tier equipment between day 40 and 50. He has top quality top tier equipment between 50 and 60, as well as almost every book. The time between day 60 and 70 is usually spent exploring the map and looting places for the missing books, but he has no reason otherwise to keep playing. And that's very sad, to me as a viewer, because horde nights don't get intense until you are into three digits days. On the other hand, 70 episodes is over two months already, and 120 would be four months. To keep a viewer engaged over that long a period would take some serious late game content -- something like what the Darkness Falls mod offers, for example.

I'd say the current balance is pretty good for single player, no streaming, but lacking otherwise.

(*) Side note: I really miss combining stuff to get better quality. Nowadays you once you get a purple auto shotgun (or whatever) you start wondering why you even bother looting. Clearing POIs, yeah, but every safe, chest, crate is a disappointment because there's no point in loot anymore.

 
dcsobral said:
Gun parts where a placeholder for weapon mods, so they were not exactly removed as much as replaced with what they were meant to be all along.(*)

The important of tiers depends a lot of what kind of game one plays. On multiplayer servers where you play well into the hundreds of days it is particularly important to have a lot of tiers. Otherwise? Not so much. Take jawoodle's youtube playthroughs, for example. He plays up to day 71, or until he dies, whichever comes first. He has top tier equipment between day 40 and 50. He has top quality top tier equipment between 50 and 60, as well as almost every book. The time between day 60 and 70 is usually spent exploring the map and looting places for the missing books, but he has no reason otherwise to keep playing. And that's very sad, to me as a viewer, because horde nights don't get intense until you are into three digits days. On the other hand, 70 episodes is over two months already, and 120 would be four months. To keep a viewer engaged over that long a period would take some serious late game content -- something like what the Darkness Falls mod offers, for example.

I'd say the current balance is pretty good for single player, no streaming, but lacking otherwise.

(*) Side note: I really miss combining stuff to get better quality. Nowadays you once you get a purple auto shotgun (or whatever) you start wondering why you even bother looting. Clearing POIs, yeah, but every safe, chest, crate is a disappointment because there's no point in loot anymore.
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I hear and appreciate your points but I don't think another tier of shovel will solve the issue. You said the solution yourself: late game content. We need more meaningful content to partake in past that day 71 cutoff.

I'd be curious to know if TFP is able to tell what the average game length is with the analytics they've added. Are players playing past a certain time? Why or why not?

 
jorbascrumps said:
Does it, though? I'd rather a wider breadth of activities than tool tiers. I don't personally see the value add of another tool tier. Remember, the auger and chainsaw makes 4 tiers already.
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Well, since they added a new Weapons tier (that even if it's named "pipe" is actually "scrap") I just thought the corresponding tools were missing.

That's all. The argument that pipe weapons are "Stone Age" is kind of counterintuitive, there's no Stone Age for firearms.

 
jorbascrumps said:
You're right, it is easier. But TFP are (I assume) more interested in adding meaningful content over stuff like this. We've seen this before with the removal of things like gun parts and LBD. Sure scavenging for that one gun part took time - and had an element of fun to it - but what did it ultimately add to the game? Searching for the Forge Ahead book took time and all it accomplished was arbitrarily blocking progression at random (*). What does another tool tier add to the game? A shovel is a shovel. We have the tiers that we do now because each tier presents some form of tangible progression with tradeoffs between each tier. What unique benefit would another tier add? Kinda just feels like ticking off a box on a progression list to me.

Give me more quests and enemies to fight so that I'm more invested in digging up dirt to make my base.

* I did enjoy the euphoria brought on by finding the book
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well for example = modern axes looks diffrent that created in '90  so it couldbe next tier for axe , auger can have few versions , saw too,  wrench can have automatic version - welder etc well new enemies, quests mean = need more time and money that make just few items. this is brutal but it is work. that's why we unfortunatly don't have at least 70 variants of zombie ( i'm disapointed about this)

dcsobral said:
There's no single rule: every piece of equipment has its own configuration. That said, I cannot think of any case where an attribute change by anything but +10% per quality level, so a quality 6 has +50% over the base attribute of a quality 1. Mind you, everything above primitive tools has random stats which go from -15% to +15%, so a +15% quality one could have the same stats as a -15% quality 4.

But tier 0, 1, 2, and 3? That's balanced by hand without any clear rules as far as I can tell. In fact, it's a pet peeve of mine that the iron spear adds almost nothing to the stone spear, whereas, on the opposite end of the spectrum, each tier of the sledgehammer has a huge jump in stats.

And to confuse things even more, not all attributes change, and the stone axe has no equivalent at any other tier.

Assuming you know how to build forges to handle iron. And, on top of that, forges to handle steel. Another issue with iron is obtaining it, but I don't think we have to worry about that on a post-apocalyptic society, unless radiation is an issue (in which case, yeah, iron sucks). But, hey, most post-apocalyptic games assume there's scarcity in a world where less than 1% of the population has survived, which would just not be the case.
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well that's why i think horzion zero dawn have a lot of sense about crafting clothes etc

dcsobral said:
Gun parts where a placeholder for weapon mods, so they were not exactly removed as much as replaced with what they were meant to be all along.(*)

The important of tiers depends a lot of what kind of game one plays. On multiplayer servers where you play well into the hundreds of days it is particularly important to have a lot of tiers. Otherwise? Not so much. Take jawoodle's youtube playthroughs, for example. He plays up to day 71, or until he dies, whichever comes first. He has top tier equipment between day 40 and 50. He has top quality top tier equipment between 50 and 60, as well as almost every book. The time between day 60 and 70 is usually spent exploring the map and looting places for the missing books, but he has no reason otherwise to keep playing. And that's very sad, to me as a viewer, because horde nights don't get intense until you are into three digits days. On the other hand, 70 episodes is over two months already, and 120 would be four months. To keep a viewer engaged over that long a period would take some serious late game content -- something like what the Darkness Falls mod offers, for example.

I'd say the current balance is pretty good for single player, no streaming, but lacking otherwise.

(*) Side note: I really miss combining stuff to get better quality. Nowadays you once you get a purple auto shotgun (or whatever) you start wondering why you even bother looting. Clearing POIs, yeah, but every safe, chest, crate is a disappointment because there's no point in loot anymore.
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small offtop but connected to it - that why i love l4d2 the last stand update - more weapons. but they work are alternative in l4d2 it could work like

pipe rilfe - blackpowder gun ( diffrent ammo type bigger dmg but slow reolad)

shotgun - hunting shotgun ( better range but less magasine 

ak - scar ( bigger dmg good accuracy slow mag ) etc

yeah i know they start working on new games so will be finihing 7dtd soo but just it could be fun

 
Matt115 said:
honestly - idk how in usa but bronze is quiet popular metal. honestly scrap  stuff is my of the most stupid thing -rust can easy infected you and you will just die. so it is dangerous. why so long bronze was used? because it doesn't need to be  hot as iron to make a hammer for example. ofc wedling let you make iron or steel stuff but it have quiet bad durability.  the most logical way is... not crafting stuff. why? in typical small city you could find enough hammers pickaxes saws etc for years.  and the most will be broken because plastic or rubbish handle will not survive  for long. So - if you were blacksmith will know what to do to make good steel .  But typical guy not. so problaby will read a historical book from school and start on bronse first. So yeah you want to get steel production back but it need skill that 99% people don't have. so bronze it the best way because - 1. pipe tools will looks just bad and 2 - what anything else can be bettwen stone and iron in typical usa country

ofc games need a lot simplifations but - more tiers of items = more to do
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You can only slice a cake so much before there is any significant difference each slice.  More is not always better.

 
Laz Man said:
You can only slice a cake so much before there is any significant difference each slice.  More is not always better.
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<warning i kinda tired about everything so i can write too much deprresing stuff that usual> 

well that's true but it will take your time right? well i know it is too late for anything big ( i honestly don't care about bandits anymore im tired of them - days gone sometimes more bandits that zombie, the last of us bandits - honestly if bandit will be rare like screamer in dying light ok. but i'm worry they will add too much of  them) - ofc we can get story - honestly i don't expect it will be interesting - well cod cw prove if you don't have main hero( or heroes because set of characters works in cod - primis ultimis) but it was in kickstarted so it must be added. so at least suggest small and realsic solution. ofc i can wrote ideas what can be do but honestly nobody care about it and it will waste of time

 
@Roland you look like a gentleman that has tried a bit of a20 lately. Can you tell us something about the current distribution of POIs?

The absence of info and kinyajuu's words on the first a20 RWG reveal makes me feel like the random deterministic approach for city districts is going to end up exactly like it is now, with 2948765298374659 Waterworks all over the map and/or the same factories in every city, with an 8k not having ALL the POIs as it should be and instead getting some of them repeated dozens of times.

How good is the new distribution? 

 
Matt115 said:
well for example = modern axes looks diffrent that created in '90  so it couldbe next tier for axe , auger can have few versions , saw too,  wrench can have automatic version - welder etc well new enemies, quests mean = need more time and money that make just few items. this is brutal but it is work. that's why we unfortunatly don't have at least 70 variants of zombie ( i'm disapointed about this)
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You're missing the point, my friend :)  It's not a question of how but instead why?

 
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Khalagar said:
What is even the point of a "long term" save anyway, do people really stick with one save long enough for experimental updates to matter? I usually just play one save until I hit end game and have an established base etc, then get tired of raiding the same Shotgun Messiah and Shamway and take a month or two break then come back and start again. The funnest parts to me are honestly when you are leveling up and still have a reason to actually explore and find new items and upgrades and things are still a danger etc

What would you even do if you just kept playing one save long after having a horde proof base and having full build and items lol
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Ive been to max once "level 300 - gs 900+ forgot, but not quite 1000"

And let me tell you, its nuts, if you havent done it just once, you owe it to yourself to get there.

 
Jost Amman said:
I just now realized that in A20 we'll have "only" the new pipe weapons... but what about "pipe tools"?

Are there any plans to add (e.g.) pipe shovel, pipe pickaxe and pipe axe, as a new "step-age" between stone and iron?

It's just that it sounds like the logical next step to the addition of the new pipe weapons...
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They are primitive guns and we already have primitive tools

 
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Reset said:
They are primitive guns and we already have primitive tools
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Yeah, I get that from a "naming" perspective you're right, but to be honest they are needed in the primitive loot so that people can start specializing right off the bat.

But if you compare them to real life guns, they're not so primitive after all. Some of the models we've seen in the preview, are assembled from scrapped parts of modern weapons. That's why I see them more like "scrap weapons" than "primitive weapons".

The same thing could be said if we wanted to assemble (i.e.) a "scrap pickaxe" from "modern" parts that we find in the rubble of the apocalypse.

 
Jost Amman said:
Yeah, I get that from a "naming" perspective you're right, but to be honest they are needed in the primitive loot so that people can start specializing right off the bat.

But if you compare them to real life guns, they're not so primitive after all. Some of the models we've seen in the preview, are assembled from scrapped parts of modern weapons. That's why I see them more like "scrap weapons" than "primitive weapons".

The same thing could be said if we wanted to assemble (i.e.) a "scrap pickaxe" from "modern" parts that we find in the rubble of the apocalypse.
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If realism were top priority we would have a scrap axe instead of a stone axe. But its not and for gameplay reasons the first starting quest is building a stone axe so that you can create further items. Sure they could give you initial scrap iron to make a scrap axe instead, but then a beginner could loose the scrap somehow (death or crafting something else) and have a problem finding scrap leading to him being stuck without any tool.

So we have a primitive stage where you can bootstrap easily and follow a simple progression from stone tools -> get raw mats in nature -> craft melee weapons -> enter POIs get scrap iron -> craft scrap weapon or find them

 
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