PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[JCrook1028]

or even just reacting to posts (excluding faatal).

To be frank, why would you want any more than Faatal answering? Sure better him that Joel that typically actually knows very little about the behind the scenes stuff. I want to hear from the man doing the work.... Faatal, Kinyaju etc. Gazz posts good info when it is a  question in his area too.

Just because the Devs aren't as active in here I take as a good sign. They're doing more important things. 90% of the questions asked in here either are repeats or asking for info about stuff that isn't coded yet so can't be answered accurately anyway.

While i agree that TFP has no obligation to balance around niche playstyles, i’m not sure that’s a completely fair characterization of an on-perk INT build.

Each other attribute can go exclusively with its own gear and go off-perk to cover weaknesses, the question is are the weaknesses INT can cover with off-perk weapons substantially larger and more numerous than what other attributes have to deal with, taking into account the fact INT is not a combat attribute?

PER can go exclusively rifle+spear and center their playstyle around maximizing their strengths and mitigating their weaknesses and do well in pretty much any sphere of play, As can AGI with a knife+9mm/.44 build. Can INT go baton+turrets and do the same while not being a torturous experience, harder than other attributes in terms of combat is fine because they have huge advantages in progression, but still viable (which is to say not massively wasteful of resources) and fun to play for it’s own sake not just because it’s the hardest way to play? 

I used your post just as an example to all the similar idea about how bad Int is as a tree. Here's a link to a playlist from a friend of mine of an Int only build and combat isn't even close to being an issue. matter of fact it shows Int being damn near Op in combat.

 

[ShellHead]

Well, given that both the junk sledge and robotic turret have the capability to do damage, it would be extremely odd to make the T3 option not have that capability, which would force INT players to use their T2 for ranged damage. Additionally how would the turret perk work with the non-combat drone? The damage boost would be completely invalid with it and the attack speed boost would have to be effectively changed to a use speed buff so the drone could do things faster which i’m not sure how that would look from the programming end of things.

Just seems like it would go against the idea of smoothing gear progression that they have for A20.

 

[ShellHead]

28 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

I used your post just as an example to all the similar idea about how bad Int is as a tree. Here's a link to a playlist from a friend of mine of an Int only build and combat isn't even close to being an issue. matter of fact it shows Int being damn near Op in combat.

point of clarification: i’m not saying INT is bad, far from it, just that the gear is weak.
I skimmed a couple of the videos, looking for combat segments that weren’t blood moons because base defense is where INT is the undisputed king, and I wouldn’t describe anything i saw as being borderline OP. The knockdown from the junk sledges were clearly very useful as was the baton’s stun, but they had to rely pretty exclusively on headshots and the sledge wasn’t really adding a lot of output. Combat isn’t horrific but was also clearly much weaker than if they’d used other weapons, which is the center of the argument. Thanks for adding this to the conversation though, it adds a useful basis of information!

 

[meganoth]

While i agree that TFP has no obligation to balance around niche playstyles, i’m not sure that’s a completely fair characterization of an on-perk INT build.

Each other attribute can go exclusively with its own gear and go off-perk to cover weaknesses, the question is are the weaknesses INT can cover with off-perk weapons substantially larger and more numerous than what other attributes have to deal with, taking into account the fact INT is not a combat attribute?

PER can go exclusively rifle+spear and center their playstyle around maximizing their strengths and mitigating their weaknesses and do well in pretty much any sphere of play, As can AGI with a knife+9mm/.44 build. Can INT go baton+turrets and do the same while not being a torturous experience, harder than other attributes in terms of combat is fine because they have huge advantages in progression, but still viable (which is to say not massively wasteful of resources) and fun to play for it’s own sake not just because it’s the hardest way to play? 

If TFP wants INT to be the attribute that is designed to use weapons from other attributes and they balance it that way, then you will obviously have disadvantages if you play pure INT.

This is then surely an asymmetric design of the attributes and if you have OCD you might have problems with that. But there is no rule that says make all attributes uniform in how they should work. It is even an advantage for replayability if you have an attribute with an unusual modus operandi.

Can you play the game pure INT. Sure you can. Without having tested it I'm sure most people here could play a stun baton- or knife-only build at the lowest difficulty setting. Just takes more time, but since the zombies auto-level with your progress, their progress will be slow as well. And if you only use stun baton you obviously don't need the massive amounts of scrap iron, so this build will work as a stun baton+turret aka INT build as well.

 

[hiemfire]

Without having tested it I'm sure most people here could play a stun baton- or knife-only build at the lowest difficulty setting.

Knife, probably. Stun Baton? Extremely doubtful even after the addition of the tier 1 baton in A20.

 

[meganoth]

Well, given that both the junk sledge and robotic turret have the capability to do damage, it would be extremely odd to make the T3 option not have that capability, which would force INT players to use their T2 for ranged damage. Additionally how would the turret perk work with the non-combat drone? The damage boost would be completely invalid with it and the attack speed boost would have to be effectively changed to a use speed buff so the drone could do things faster which i’m not sure how that would look from the programming end of things.

Just seems like it would go against the idea of smoothing gear progression that they have for A20.

INT level 2 currently says: "You aren't the brightest color in the box, but you occasionally hit the nail on the head. Deal 210% head damage and have a 10% chance to dismember with stun batons and robotic turrets"

In A20 it might say: "You aren't the brightest color in the box, but you occasionally hit the nail on the head. Deal 210% head damage and have a 10% chance to dismember with stun batons and robotic turrets. Your drone will heal you 10% faster"

I really don't know what progression the drone will get from perk and attribute, I just made a wild guess above. There are a few possibilites.

EDIT: Ah sorry, you said perk, not attribute. The same goes for the perk though. The drone has a few parameters like speed, healing ability, carrying ability, durability... Some of them will be influenced by attribute, some by perk, some by mods.

 

[Roland]

It might help better sell how they intend it to be used if the UI for the Attributes and Perks was not tabbed in the same manner as a MMORPG's class specialization system.

Let me rephrase... They intend for players to play it however they want whether that is mixed or singular--whatever strikes the player's fancy. They communicate this by not graying out any options once you have made a choice. You are never stopped from choosing whatever perks you wish to choose. So a player may mix it up or they can play intelligence purely if they want. It sounds like some people don't want to play intelligence purely as it has been designed. This is perfectly fine. They can mix it. Others do like to play intelligence purely and they enjoy the challenge that it brings which is different than playing a game using pure strength or pure fortitude or pure agility or pure perception.

I don't think anyone would argue that playing a pure intelligence game would be more challenging than other pure builds. But so what? Its nice to have a challenge if you want to choose that and intelligence is a great build to mix with one of the others.

Without having tested it I'm sure most people here could play a stun baton- or knife-only build at the lowest difficulty setting.

When we say stun baton only are we saying that you cannot use any other weapon at all or just that you won't perk into any other weapon and you will only perk into the stun baton? What about before you find a stun baton? Do you just run away or use your fists or can you use whatever you have until you find a stun baton but then from then on you can only ever use a stun baton?

What's the exact challenge here?

 

[Forgotten Memes]

Not that I know.

Everyone who actually uses melee weapons can tell you that they are seriously OP already. Heh

I'm guessing you've never played on insane/permadeath.  Imbalances are far less noticeable on easy mode.

It's a very different game when a power attacks no longer 1 shot everything and death is meaningful.

 

[meganoth]

Knife, probably. Stun Baton? Extremely doubtful even after the addition of the tier 1 baton in A20.

Stun baton is able to stun lock any single zombie for an indefinite time. Get more than one zombie, run until only one follows you or (while on a quest) climb up to a defensible position and whack at them. Defensible position can often be just a ladder 3 blocks up on a wall (the wall should not be a house wall reachable from inside though).

When we say stun baton only are we saying that you cannot use any other weapon at all or just that you won't perk into any other weapon and you will only perk into the stun baton? What about before you find a stun baton? Do you just run away or use your fists or can you use whatever you have until you find a stun baton but then from then on you can only ever use a stun baton?

What's the exact challenge here?

I meant stun baton only, no wasting of any ammo. But that includes the tier0 baton.

 

[ShellHead]

If TFP wants INT to be the attribute that is designed to use weapons from other attributes and they balance it that way, then you will obviously have disadvantages if you play pure INT.

Absolutely, if that’s what they have intended.

have they said that somewhere? I’m cool with that being the case if so

 

[ShellHead]

INT level 2 currently says: "You aren't the brightest color in the box, but you occasionally hit the nail on the head. Deal 210% head damage and have a 10% chance to dismember with stun batons and robotic turrets"

In A20 it might say: "You aren't the brightest color in the box, but you occasionally hit the nail on the head. Deal 210% head damage and have a 10% chance to dismember with stun batons and robotic turrets. Your drone will heal you 10% faster"

I really don't know what progression the drone will get from perk and attribute, I just made a wild guess above. There are a few possibilites.

EDIT: Ah sorry, you said perk, not attribute. The same goes for the perk though. The drone has a few parameters like speed, healing ability, carrying ability, durability... Some of them will be influenced by attribute, some by perk, some by mods.

Could very well, so as it stands we won’t know if the drone has been moved from INT’s T3 option or if the turret perk / attribute boost has been changed to accommodate the non-combat nature of the drone until either a statement from the devs or A20 going public.

 

[meganoth]

Absolutely, if that’s what they have intended.

have they said that somewhere? I’m cool with that being the case if so

Hard to say. When for example Gazz tells you something about the game you never know how serious he is, and most of the time he is not . I'm also not sure if my conviction comes from TFP or from infering this from looking at INT and noting the advantages myself.

 

[ShellHead]

Absolutely fair, i’m speaking from my own inferences as well

 

[meilodasreh]

I'm guessing you've never played on insane/permadeath.  Imbalances are far less noticeable on easy mode.

It's a very different game when a power attacks no longer 1 shot everything and death is meaningful.

Plays on a difficulty level where you can one-hit kill everything with a melee weapon:

“Meh...boring I can easily kill everything“

plays on a higher difficulty level where you have to make several hits to kill an enemy:

“what is this, I can‘t one-hit everything. Game is badly balanced. Weapon needs to be buffed“

Pro tip: there‘s a secret weapon damage buff function hidden in the main menu. It‘s called „difficulty level“ ;-)

 

[Forgotten Memes]

Pro tip: there‘s a secret weapon damage buff function hidden in the main menu. It‘s called „difficulty level“

Apparently reading comprehension isn't taught in schools anymore.  I never said it was too hard at higher difficulty, just that it more clearly reveals the imbalance.  Imbalance which also exists on easier difficulties.   

You playing on a difficulty level where you can one-hit kill everything with a melee weapon:

"This game is balanced."

Me playing on a higher difficulty level where you have to make several hits to kill an enemy:

"What's this, some weapons are far, far more effective than others?  Perhaps the devs should make adjustments."

You probably aren't even embarrassed that you're arguing against making the game better for everyone.

 

[ShellHead]

I don’t think that’s a fair assessment, they weren’t saying that it’s bad that melee doesn’t 1-shot on high difficulties. They were saying that once you got to the point where melee doesn’t just 1-shot across the board the differences in weapon effectiveness became far more prominent. They could’ve been less hostile about it but the point is legitimate, there are clear balance issues between the various melee weapons. Clubs, Knuckles, and to a lesser extent Sledgehammers are all decidedly outperforming Spears, Knives, and Batons even given the Spear’s reach, Knife’s slow and damage over time, and Baton’s stuns. 

When everything can 1-shot, differences don’t matter but the difference between 1 and 2-shotting is huge.

 

[Khalagar]

Perhaps difficulty level is why I have such a different stance than most people do when it comes to the int tree. I play on the second hardest difficulty and stuff like the stun baton and junk turrets are cool but are kind of a liability compared to just using a shotgun and club. Junk Sledges are amazing though

 

[Roland]

You probably aren't even embarrassed that you're arguing against making the game better for everyone.

But what about those people who like asymmetrical design and appreciate that there is a difference between the weaponry and that they all don't "balance" to the same exact experience. Knives don't do as much direct damage as sledge hammers but they cause bleed. Stun batons shock and stun. It is a different experience that offers a different kind of challenge than sledgehammers. Changing everything so that they are symmetrically balanced across the board definitely won't make the game better for everyone. I guess it will make the game better for you.

If the "weak" weapons are not your cup of tea then don't use them. Stick to the ones that do direct massive damage and have fun your way. If you want to do a pure intellect build but feel it is completely unbalanced for high difficulty settings then lower the difficulty setting to the point where you can enjoy a pure intelligence build. If you can't enjoy using a stun baton or knife or a spear at any level of difficulty because you know there is a more effective alternative you could be using instead and you just can't ignore the siren call of maximum efficiency, then you've probably explored the entire gamespace that this game can offer you.

Perhaps difficulty level is why I have such a different stance than most people do when it comes to the int tree. I play on the second hardest difficulty and stuff like the stun baton and junk turrets are cool but are kind of a liability compared to just using a shotgun and club. Junk Sledges are amazing though

No doubt. Turn down the difficulty when playing pure intellect if it feels impossible to pull off at your current difficulty. With your skill level there must be a setting at some level that will feel challenging but not impossible so you can play pure intellect and feel that you can be successful.

 

[Khalagar]

Int is still pretty easy, junk sledges are literal easy mode after all. It's more just that some parts of it (basically everything but the sledges) are really mediocre like stun baton and the early game void

 

[ShellHead]

Balanced does not mean everything does the same thing. It just means that everything has an equivalent power allocation, which can include non-direct damage statistics. The Stun Baton’s electrocution effect is as much a allocation of power as the Sledgehammer’s damage per hit or the Knife’s high attack speed or the Knuckles low stamina costs. A Stun Baton doing the same amount of damage as a Sledgehammer would be incredibly unbalanced because the Baton has faster attack speed, lower stamina costs, and the electrocution effect. And adding the electrocution effect to the Sledge would also be unbalanced because the high damage output and better reach (plus the high block damage but due to the extremely situational nature of that benefit, it has a lower equivalent value).

No weapon should be “weak” (which is to say a lower equivalent power allocation) but any weapon can, and many should, have low damage.