PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

meganoth said:
I consider FORT and STR the combat heavy attributes because they clearly have the weapons advantage over all other attributes. For example: Except for the two highest difficulties a normal player could get away with using the tier1 gun of FORT even in endgame and because of the big magazine the m60 is the ultimate oh @%$# weapon (IMHO), even better than the shotgun.

Agi in comparison needs a lot more perk points to be effective as their damage potential starts from a lower level. I don't see that necessarily as an advantage that you need a lot more levels to get in range of FORT or STR. The strength of AGI is a completely separate "game mode" where you can relatively safely do quests in the night provided you invested your points in it. In typical fantasy RPG parlance you would call that attribute the rogue assassin class.

PER has a strong tier3 weapon, but all lower tiers are hampered by small magazines, especially the tier 1 weapon. There is almost no application for the long range the guns are capable of and melee is one of the most difficult weapons to handle effectively. PER can shine on horde night, but the rest of the week I consider its utility perks more important that the combat perks. The RPG equivalent would be the thief half of the rogue class.
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i like the idea of stealth being like a different game mode, hadn’t thought of it like that. 
The question i have is that are the stats intended to have those rankings or is that the results of the current state of balancing? I could see FORT being balanced around the idea of high-power but mostly unsupported weapons and the rest of the tree being dedicated to survival perks. But i’m not really convinced of that given the sheer potency of both the perks and the weapons, the other combat stat doesn’t have nearly as strong survival while being notably but not massively better at fighting. Which is to say a player could go straight STR and be able to handle almost every fight with ease (fat cops are basically a hard counter unless you have slugs and nerves of steel) and have good gathering capabilities but no advantages with feeding yourself or managing harsh environs but if they go straight FORT, they would have a universally effective (though expensive) mainline weapon and a massive advantage in keeping themselves fed, both in obtaining more and needing less.

meganoth said:
Well, just ask that question now. At the current time I would say definitely yes for me. Even with a shotgun I miss sometimes or forget to reload or the weapon even breaks at the wrong time (yes, I'm sloppy there).  Also while running around with double barrel or even pump shotgun you need to reload a lot more often than you would like. The turrets are the only companion in single player to watch my back. And set up behind you they even literally watch your back. The effectiveness of the baton in fights with multiple enemies is very low, no question about that, but the turret(s) really shine in fights against multiple opponents. 
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The turrets are singularly useful in watching your back but the point investment is hefty given how much they gain from the RoF increase from the perk, which was why i brought up sliding some of it into the weapon baseline.

Part of the problem as i see it is while the turrets are intended to have a low skill floor, the point investment required to get them running smoothly hits about the time when that low skill floor begins losing its value, which makes them convenient but expensive rather than being a strong support tool from the beginning of the game to the end.

An additional issue i see here is that while an unperked weapon to use alongside the turrets is very valuable, it doesn’t seem like the inverse is true. Would a non-INT player be interested in using an unperked turret? And if not, why not? The junk sledge has good knockback and range but is that enough for someone to seek one out like an INT player seeks out an AR or shotgun?

Then the stun baton, which probably has the best crowd control baseline of any weapon but low damage, which would logically make it a good support for the turrets, right? Whether you’re at the fore zapping zeds so they’re vulnerable to the turrets or hanging back and using the baton as a self-defense tool it makes sense as a complementary weapon. But it isn’t, pretty much every other weapon is a more efficient choice, and i should clarify what i mean by efficient: clearing out enemies as quickly as possible while minimizing resource and health costs, but the stun baton’s electrocution effect should make it a particularly efficient melee weapon in the context of the turrets because you will be taking a minimal amount of damage while still putting out a decent amount via the turrets, which have exceedingly cheap ammo.

And we still come to the question “what non-INT player would want to use a unperked stun baton?” STR already has loads of stuns available, PER could use the stun if zeds got too close to use a rifle but the spear has better reach and a weighted head would add a bit of CC anyway, AGI doesn’t really need stuns when it has easily applied slows via deep cuts though the attack speed bonus would be very useful in stunning more often, FORT would probably benefit the most but knuckles are strong with a wide variety of effects and short duration buffs so using the baton would interfere with that.

I just don’t think a weapon is in a good place if the only people using it are either in a very particular circumstance or are the associated main stat.

meganoth said:
Yes and yes. In theory the game was designed with a balance so that the more effective ammo is harder to get and needs more effort to get enough of it. But effectively ammo of all sizes was too plentiful and easy to get in pretty much every alpha I played. But there is hope for much more balanced setup in A20. If the first people are complaining they don't find enough ammo we might have reached a good balance.
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That seems like a good method of balancing ammo, it seems like the gear overhaul will get us far closer to that point.

I don’t mean to be combative and i do appreciate this discussion, I apologize if i came off differently.

 
ShellHead said:
And we still come to the question “what non-INT player would want to use a unperked stun baton?”
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After years of reading these forums I have doubts about any significant number of people wanting to use any weapon they haven’t perked into. No need to single out the stun baton. Seems like the majority let their inner min/maxer dictate to them what weapon is or is not worth a spot on their belt. 

 
Roland said:
After years of reading these forums I have doubts about any significant number of people wanting to use any weapon they haven’t perked into. No need to single out the stun baton. Seems like the majority let their inner min/maxer dictate to them what weapon is or is not worth a spot on their belt. 
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Fair, but the reason i bring that up is in response to the argument that INT players should be fine with using unperked weapons. I don’t disagree but then that standard has to be applied evenly to all weapons, otherwise there is a clear balance issue. Because the point where INT wants everyone else’s weapons and no one wants INT’s weapons is not a point any of us want to be at.

 
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Survager said:
I really hope that this zombie in ALPHA 20 will get immunity from being ignited by melee weapons and from Molotov cocktails.
It looks very strange that this zombie is taking fire damage. 🤨
Bleeding for this zombie also looks inappropriate )
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yeah i like this thinking

 
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I'm curious to see how sensitive the world is nowadays. *Goes to Google, types in "Are solar eclipses offensive?"* ;)

I'm almost tempted to go to Twitter right now and start a fake rant on how "offensive" solar eclipses are and that they should be cancelled. 😆

 
ShellHead said:
Fair, but the reason i bring that up is in response to the argument that INT players should be fine with using unperked weapons. I don’t disagree but then that standard has to be applied evenly to all weapons, otherwise there is a clear balance issue. Because the point where INT wants everyone else’s weapons and no one wants INT’s weapons is not a point any of us want to be at.
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The reason int is different is because they can use both their ranged weapon and an unperked ranged weapon AT THE SAME TIME. 

No other tree can do that. 

I personally like the fact that a heavily int focused build plays very differently from other builds. 

When i play any other attribute, i use the weapons from other trees much more rarely because i have to choose between my weapon and unperked weapons from other trees. It is not just int weapons i don't want. Actually int weapons are the one from other trees that i use most (sledge/junk turrets).  

As for other trees' melee weapons, the only time i use them unperked is very early game if i am going int (because you can't craft a stun baton early).

 
ShellHead said:
Fair, but the reason i bring that up is in response to the argument that INT players should be fine with using unperked weapons. I don’t disagree but then that standard has to be applied evenly to all weapons, otherwise there is a clear balance issue. Because the point where INT wants everyone else’s weapons and no one wants INT’s weapons is not a point any of us want to be at.
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I agree with @katarynna’s point.  When I go strength or agility builds, I do use the Int tree’s turrets.  I don’t use the stun baton because I am perking into the melee weapon of that tree; but that applies to any other build I do.  When I am using knives, I don’t use any other melee weapons.  In all builds, I use all the firearms except for the rocket launcher.

It’s very satisfying to play a build that is not as combat capable of the others.  Stun baton has its strengths and weaknesses, but I wouldn’t trade them for a second just so they are buffed to be similar to the knives or the clubs.  I want real weaknesses, not flavor weaknesses if stun batons are buffed to be like the other melee weapons.

So it is not true that everbody this and nobody this like you stated in your post.

 
ShellHead said:
i like the idea of stealth being like a different game mode, hadn’t thought of it like that. 
The question i have is that are the stats intended to have those rankings or is that the results of the current state of balancing? I could see FORT being balanced around the idea of high-power but mostly unsupported weapons and the rest of the tree being dedicated to survival perks. But i’m not really convinced of that given the sheer potency of both the perks and the weapons, the other combat stat doesn’t have nearly as strong survival while being notably but not massively better at fighting. Which is to say a player could go straight STR and be able to handle almost every fight with ease (fat cops are basically a hard counter unless you have slugs and nerves of steel) and have good gathering capabilities but no advantages with feeding yourself or managing harsh environs but if they go straight FORT, they would have a universally effective (though expensive) mainline weapon and a massive advantage in keeping themselves fed, both in obtaining more and needing less.
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You lost me there, what is your point exactly? And how are you disagreeing with me here? When you say stat, do you mean attribute or perk or weapon damage?

If it is that strength is less combat heavy than Fortitude, well, might be, but the difference is much less than between those two and all other attributes. A STR player on horde night will usually have it as easy as a FOR player because he may be much weaker on mid-range damage but he has a massive resource advantage. More blocks means more blocks between you and any zombies.

The turrets are singularly useful in watching your back but the point investment is hefty given how much they gain from the RoF increase from the perk, which was why i brought up sliding some of it into the weapon baseline.
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Why should the INT player not invest in the turret perk when we assume the strength player invests in the shotgun perk in a comparison? Where is the hefty investment, there is only one turret perk?

Part of the problem as i see it is while the turrets are intended to have a low skill floor, the point investment required to get them running smoothly hits about the time when that low skill floor begins losing its value, which makes them convenient but expensive rather than being a strong support tool from the beginning of the game to the end.
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low skill floor? Whats is that?

An additional issue i see here is that while an unperked weapon to use alongside the turrets is very valuable, it doesn’t seem like the inverse is true. Would a non-INT player be interested in using an unperked turret? And if not, why not? The junk sledge has good knockback and range but is that enough for someone to seek one out like an INT player seeks out an AR or shotgun?
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As non-INT player I sometimes use turrets and in horde nights very often use the robotic sledge. But why does that matter, I thought we were discussing what value the INT tree is for INT players?

There were even complaints by at least one forum user that the turrets were so mighty and easy to use by non-INT players and that would diminish the value of the turrets for the INT player. I don't subscribe to that view, but it shows the range of opinions here.

Then the stun baton, which probably has the best crowd control baseline of any weapon but low damage, which would logically make it a good support for the turrets, right? Whether you’re at the fore zapping zeds so they’re vulnerable to the turrets or hanging back and using the baton as a self-defense tool it makes sense as a complementary weapon. But it isn’t, pretty much every other weapon is a more efficient choice, and i should clarify what i mean by efficient: clearing out enemies as quickly as possible while minimizing resource and health costs, but the stun baton’s electrocution effect should make it a particularly efficient melee weapon in the context of the turrets because you will be taking a minimal amount of damage while still putting out a decent amount via the turrets, which have exceedingly cheap ammo.

And we still come to the question “what non-INT player would want to use a unperked stun baton?” STR already has loads of stuns available, PER could use the stun if zeds got too close to use a rifle but the spear has better reach and a weighted head would add a bit of CC anyway, AGI doesn’t really need stuns when it has easily applied slows via deep cuts though the attack speed bonus would be very useful in stunning more often, FORT would probably benefit the most but knuckles are strong with a wide variety of effects and short duration buffs so using the baton would interfere with that.

I just don’t think a weapon is in a good place if the only people using it are either in a very particular circumstance or are the associated main stat.
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While I think guns are perfectly usable by all attributes (to make the most of the ammo you find for example) I don't see much value in using the melee weapon of an attribute you are not investing in.

ShellHead said:
Fair, but the reason i bring that up is in response to the argument that INT players should be fine with using unperked weapons. I don’t disagree but then that standard has to be applied evenly to all weapons, otherwise there is a clear balance issue. Because the point where INT wants everyone else’s weapons and no one wants INT’s weapons is not a point any of us want to be at.
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I would have no problems with that point. INT being special is one of the best things in the game. Variety is good, and variety can be balanced. It is just more difficult to balance (but luckily WE players don't need to balance it).

Agi (because of stealth) and INT (because of the turret as a mechanical companion) are very important for the replayability of the game. Because generally STR, FOR and even PER play very similar if you look at the combat part alone.

 
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bdubyah said:
Burnt zombie is well made, but as stated, looks more like something you would see in an Elder Scrolls game or something. If it were still burning that brightly it would fall apart if it took a hit or tried to hit you. Lol.

I think a super charred, black, crispy looking zed with a little smoke coming off of him would look better. Maybe have a tiny bit of embers on his hands to sell it when he sets you on fire. :)
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yeah it is look to much like something from skryrim or dragon age

 
TheSponyX said:
Have you guys made progress towards more customization freedom for the characters we play? Like adjusting some body parts in particular, not a generic weight and muscle slider. Just like how we had in Alpha 13!
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Madmole mentioned how he would love to have a custom person creator system, but the amount of work to do it justice doesn't align up with their goal of final release.  Right now, it doesn't look like they are planning on expanding on the options we have today.

 
BFT2020 said:
Madmole mentioned how he would love to have a custom person creator system, but the amount of work to do it justice doesn't align up with their goal of final release.  Right now, it doesn't look like they are planning on expanding on the options we have today.
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Well i hope it will be in A21

 
@ShellHead

Which is to say a player could go straight STR and be able to handle almost every fight with ease (fat cops are basically a hard counter unless you have slugs and nerves of steel) and have good gathering capabilities
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That is why playing a pure INT build is so exciting.  We can't handle all the fights with ease, we have to take advantage of the tools and situation we are in.  And when we survive that fight, we are elated that we were able to win.  And if we fail, we re-examined what we did and work on improving ourselves so the next time we are in that situation, we do a better job.

The turrets are singularly useful in watching your back but the point investment is hefty given how much they gain from the RoF increase from the perk, which was why i brought up sliding some of it into the weapon baseline.
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If that is your belief, you do not understand the full capability of perked turrets for the INT tree.  The ability to setup kill boxes on the fly, the ability to use a turret to slow down a chasing feral / irradiated zombie when the situation becomes chaotic.  To deal with that pack of zombie dogs or vultures.  The list goes on.  

An additional issue i see here is that while an unperked weapon to use alongside the turrets is very valuable, it doesn’t seem like the inverse is true. Would a non-INT player be interested in using an unperked turret? And if not, why not? The junk sledge has good knockback and range but is that enough for someone to seek one out like an INT player seeks out an AR or shotgun?
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Yes, all the time.  A sledge turret always seems to be part of my horde base design, no matter what Attribute tree I am spec'ing into.  Once I obtain an auto turret, I use it.  The only difference is I don't take 2-4 turrets if I haven't spec'd into the INT tree.

But it isn’t, pretty much every other weapon is a more efficient choice, and i should clarify what i mean by efficient: clearing out enemies as quickly as possible while minimizing resource and health costs,
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Does everything have to be the most efficient choice?  Whatever happen to just using things because they are fun and challenging?  If the goal was only to use the most efficient melee weapon, then I would always go with the clubs (perks and books).

And we still come to the question “what non-INT player would want to use a unperked stun baton?” STR already has loads of stuns available, PER could use the stun if zeds got too close to use a rifle but the spear has better reach and a weighted head would add a bit of CC anyway, AGI doesn’t really need stuns when it has easily applied slows via deep cuts though the attack speed bonus would be very useful in stunning more often, FORT would probably benefit the most but knuckles are strong with a wide variety of effects and short duration buffs so using the baton would interfere with that.
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A lot of non-strength players don't use the club or sledgehammer.  The main purpose of the knife for non-agility players is to harvest animals.  As an agility build, I only use the knives (why waste an inventory slot on non-perked melee weapons when the knives are my main melee weapon).  The argument that non-INT players would not use the stun baton also applies to the other melee weapons.

 
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