PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[Urban Blackbear]

None of those are decent enough alternatives to just hitting them again. One requires you to wiggle until you find the right spot to pick it back up which is easier said than done and the other requires you to carry around a bunch of spears. Do they stack if they're modded? Never tried because rifle ammo stacks.

 

[MechanicalLens]

None of those are decent enough alternatives to just hitting them again. One requires you to wiggle until you find the right spot to pick it back up which is easier said than done and the other requires you to carry around a bunch of spears. Do they stack if they're modded? Never tried because rifle ammo stacks.

Spears never stack.

 

[bachgaman]

Again, this is simply based on your playstyle.

For those that don't abuse the death exploit or use settings where loot is a rarity,   these perks are very useful.

Yes, I do fight with a bone knife at the beginning until I can get my hands on a higher quality knife.  Yes, I do perk into Deep Cuts.  Combine with Flurry of blows and parkour, I can handle anything outside of a 64 Z bloodmoon horde

Late game I am still using either a compound bow or crossbow with steel arrows / bolts.  With perks in both archery and Hidden strike, I can do a ton of damage to a sleeper every time I come across one.  And yes, stealth still works in quests and POI for the majority of the time. (there will be cases where stealth won't work).  The other times I trigger and then retreat to see if I can get the Z's to get bored trying to find me.

My last playthrough I ended at Day 123.  I was still using the steel club.

i never exploited death

nevertheless I never take these perks, because there are always incomparably more useful

I repeat, you can tell any stories from the Adventurer difficulty level, this will in no way change the fact that these perks are worthless

 

[unholyjoe]

Spears never stack.

best to my knowledge, if an item has a durability bar and random stats, it cant be stacked because each item having separate stats and all of that needs to be constantly checked and recorded...

 

[Roland]

nevertheless I never take these perks, because there are always incomparably more useful

You're a min/maxer. You will always be limited in playstyle choices when only the most efficient path is the only one that is palatable to you.

I repeat, you can tell any stories from the Adventurer difficulty level, this will in no way change the fact that these perks are worthless

Here's the thing. You can play Insane nightmare and be successful when doing a strength build and perking into Sledge Hammers and Shotguns. You've discovered that you cannot play Insane nightmare successfully when doing a Perception build and perking into Spears and Bows. So you want Spears and bows to get buffed to the point that you will be able to be successful using them in Insane Nightmare.

The problem with that is that there are already people who are successfully doing what you can't and you would be robbing them of the challenge in order to make it easier for yourself. Strength and Fortitude are the easiest of the builds to master. Perception, Agility, and Intelligence are more challenging. You want them all to be equal in challenge so you can play them all at the toughest difficulty level.

You can play them all. You obviously do well with the easier builds on insane nightmare. Seems like you might need to reduce the difficulty to Survivalist or Warrior when playing with the other builds until you get better with them. But asking to decrease the challenge of certain weapons because you feel like they are impossible to use at the highest difficulty only punishes those players who are trying to challenge themselves with those builds at the highest difficulty.

 

[SnowDog1942]

Seems like you might need to reduce the difficulty to Survivalist or Warrior when playing with the other builds until you get better with them.

Haven't you learned that you upset peoples ego and epeen when you suggest turning down the difficulty?

 

[Matt]

How about we add a couple zeros to the end of that detection increase, eh?

Sure but 2.50000000000 is still 2.5.

 

[bachgaman]

You're a min/maxer. You will always be limited in playstyle choices when only the most efficient path is the only one that is palatable to you.

I don't always choose the most efficient way, give me a fun and playable alternative and I'll use it, but I am offered 10/20/30/40/50% damage on a lame weapon or 10/20/30% to break open a box that does not exist. Oh no, I guess I should rush 1/2/3/4/5 additional inventory slots already have them? After all, from this I get fun and demonstrate my flexibility (low skill) 

You still don’t understand what I’m talking about?

 

[BFT2020]

I repeat, you can tell any stories from the Adventurer difficulty level, this will in no way change the fact that these perks are worthless

It's obvious that you are trolling me.  If you been paying any attention to my posts, I have clearly stated that I play survivalist which is the second highest difficulty level in the game.  Throw in increasing the speed of daytime zombies above their default, maxing out zombies in BM hordes, and lowering loot levels, I am clearly not paying this game at lower difficulty levels.

But hey, believe whatever you want to believe to justify your opinion; just don't expect others to believe the same as you.

 

[Roland]

I don't always choose the most efficient way, give me a fun and playable alternative and I'll use it, but I am offered 10/20/30/40/50% damage on a lame weapon or 10/20/30% to break open a box that does not exist. Oh no, I guess I should rush 1/2/3/4/5 additional inventory slots already have them? After all, from this I get fun and demonstrate my flexibility (low skill) 

You still don’t understand what I’m talking about?

I understand from your own words that if you have a more powerful alternative over a current weapon you are using then the weapon you are currently using no longer seems fun to you.

Spears are definitely not the most powerful but using a spear in combination with a club is just a lot of fun. Jab Jab Throw smash. Is it efficient and is the spear the most powerful option compared to other weapons? No. But it is challenging and fun to use.

 

[bachgaman]

I understand from your own words that if you have a more powerful alternative over a current weapon you are using then the weapon you are currently using no longer seems fun to you.

Spears are definitely not the most powerful but using a spear in combination with a club is just a lot of fun. Jab Jab Throw smash. Is it efficient and is the spear the most powerful option compared to other weapons? No. But it is challenging and fun to use.

Hey, can you see that I'm not just talking about weapons? Hello?

Even if what you wrote is fun, then, you must admit, is it possible without spending skill points for 50% damage? Have fun 1-2 hits longer btw

 

[katarynna]

I repeat, you can tell any stories from the Adventurer difficulty level, this will in no way change the fact that these perks are worthless

Although I don't play on adventure difficulty level, stories from perks being useful on adventurer difficulty are 100% valid.

Perk balance is not done based just on insane difficulty nightmare speed zombies. It is based on all settings.

For example, you say iron gut is a useless perk. If you watch any larger multiplayer youtube series, you will find that it is a necessity. Food is much more difficult for larger groups, and iron gut helps them a lot. See Grand Spartan multiplayer series for example.

You say no one fights with knives. Although I haven't watched him, apparently jonah birch uses knives due to the slow that you get from the perks in his insane difficulty, always run, nightmare speed, permadeath playthroughs. Maybe you can get some tips there on how it's done.

Parkour is used by lots of people who do high level melee horde builds.  I have seen people who fight the horde in the streets with melee, utilizing pillars to jump onto rather than an actual base. It looks both fun and useful to me, although as a disabled grandmother i don't have the twitch reflexes to make it work for me.

For people who play on lower difficulties, who matter just as much as you, fully perking a melee weapon can make a difference in a one hit kill or not.

For people who prefer the extra challenge of playing on an all snow or all desert map, well insulated is a very useful perk.

Most of the perks you deem useless are quite likely high priority perks for some people, some situations, some difficulty level, etc.

 

[Roland]

Hey, can you see that I'm not just talking about weapons? Hello?

Even if what you wrote is fun, then, you must admit, is it possible without spending skill points for 50% damage? Have fun 1-2 hits longer btw

Lets call it abilities. Perks give abilities and weapons give abilities. Abilities that you see as worthless, others see as valuable. Abilities that you see as unviable at your current difficulty level others see as challenging but doable at your current difficulty level. Your assumptions only extend to your own mouse and your own keyboard. If you cannot believe that certain abilities could ever be useful at higher than Adventurer difficulty then either don't use them or lower the difficulty to a point where they do feel viable for you.

 

[bachgaman]

Perk balance is not done based just on insane difficulty nightmare speed zombies. It is based on all settings.

On a weak difficulty, a good abilities will not get worse. And the worst won't get better. Just the worst abilities will become playable since the game is easy. You might not be upgrading abilities at all on easy difficulty

The fact that someone is improving useless abilities on an easy difficulty level does not mean that they suddenly became useful

For example, you say iron gut is a useless perk. If you watch any larger multiplayer youtube series, you will find that it is a necessity. Food is much more difficult for larger groups, and iron gut helps them a lot. See Grand Spartan multiplayer series for example.

You brought an extreme situation in which he can be useful, but if they together pushing the fifth level of this ability then they are just noobs. A couple of people from a group with perks for farming and a chef will more than cover all the food needs of even a large group with the proper effort of all group members (searching for seeds, building plots)

Again, why they so need food in game if there is no real penalty for hunger?

To summarize what you wrote to me, we can say that these abilities are needed if player wants perversion or makes a video for YouTube. If this was intended by the developer, then I agree that I was wrong and I will say that useless abilities in the form of 10/20/30/40/50% damage are needed by this game, but in turn, I note that the real perversion is to use melee weapons and improving abilities for ranged weapons. This is the real level of content for YouTube

 

[katarynna]

On a weak difficulty, a good abilities will not get worse. And the worst won't get better. Just the worst abilities will become playable since the game is easy. You might not be upgrading abilities at all on easy difficulty

If you are counting the melee weapon perks as among the worst, then you are wrong about the "worst" abilities not getting better on lower difficulty. Lowering the difficulty increases the amount of damage you do per hit to the zombies and decreases the amount of damage they do to you.

Say a zombie has 100 health. On highest difficulty one club hit may do 20 damage so 50% more would be 30. On the lowest difficulty, that same hit with that same club may do 70 damage, making the perk give you a one hit kill. 

Percent damage increases are much more impactful at lower difficulties.

As for not upgrading abilities on easier difficulties, you are aware that people have different levels of proficiency at the game? Some people playing on the easiest difficulty do so because they are not particularly good at the game but still have fun playing it. They need the upgraded abilities to keep pace with the upgraded zombie types. Those players are just as valuable as you are.

You brought an extreme situation in which he can be useful, but if they together pushing the fifth level of this ability then they are just noobs. A couple of people from a group with perks for farming and a chef will more than cover all the food needs of even a large group with the proper effort of all group members (searching for seeds, building plots)

Playing in a group is not an extreme situation. There are many people who are likeable enough to have friends. The recommendation of watching the grand spartan multiplayer series was just so you could see what a struggle food can be in multiplayer, and is far from the only example of this. I never have food troubles in single player, but in a group it is a noticeable increase in difficulty. 

Hunger causes stamina issues, which decrease both the amount of stuff you can get done as well as how much fun you have doing it.

 

[bachgaman]

If you are counting the melee weapon perks as among the worst, then you are wrong about the "worst" abilities not getting better on lower difficulty. Lowering the difficulty increases the amount of damage you do per hit to the zombies and decreases the amount of damage they do to you.

Say a zombie has 100 health. On highest difficulty one club hit may do 20 damage so 50% more would be 30. On the lowest difficulty, that same hit with that same club may do 70 damage, making the perk give you a one hit kill. 

Percent damage increases are much more impactful at lower difficulties.

As for not upgrading abilities on easier difficulties, you are aware that people have different levels of proficiency at the game? Some people playing on the easiest difficulty do so because they are not particularly good at the game but still have fun playing it. They need the upgraded abilities to keep pace with the upgraded zombie types. Those players are just as valuable as you are.

So we have 3 hit vs 5 hits on hard

And 1 hit vs 2 hits on easy

Has the efficiency increased dramatically? Lol same ~50%

I didn't say that these perks need to be removed, I said that they need to be strengthened, and more importantly, not so much strengthened as made more interesting thanks to unique bonuses. And if they weren't such a crap, these players could rise above the easiest level of difficulty, right?

Playing in a group is not an extreme situation. There are many people who are likeable enough to have friends. The recommendation of watching the grand spartan multiplayer series was just so you could see what a struggle food can be in multiplayer, and is far from the only example of this. I never have food troubles in single player, but in a group it is a noticeable increase in difficulty. 

Hunger causes stamina issues, which decrease both the amount of stuff you can get done as well as how much fun you have doing it.

I play party with 2-3 players 95% of time on my own dedicated server. We need food for the first two weeks maximum, then food in excess. And then we do it only for fair play, by and large it is not necessary to eat in game. 10-20% stamina penalty is laughable, especially if you're not into perverted with melee weapons too much

 

[katarynna]

So we have 3 hit vs 5 hits on hard

And 1 hit vs 2 hits on easy

Has the efficiency increased dramatically? Lol same ~50%

I didn't say that these perks need to be removed, I said that they need to be strengthened, and more importantly, not so much strengthened as made more interesting thanks to unique bonuses. And if they weren't such a crap, these players could rise above the easiest level of difficulty, right?

 If you only encounter 1 zombie, sure. However, if you encounter a group of 4 zombies, it is 12 hits vs 20 on hard, with 1 less zombie to fight each time you kill one.

On easy, it is 4 hits vs 8, with one zombie dying and thus not still trying to hit you, with each hit. If you can't see that can mean the difference between living and dying for someone who is not very skilled at the game, you are just not looking.

And again, the fact that you believe a perk to be "such a crap" does not make it so for other people in other situations. 

People who don't do a lot of mining consider the mining perks to be crap. People who don't use the trader or rarely use the trader consider better barter and daring adventurer crap. People who stick to the town they make their base in would consider grease monkey a crap way to use points.

People who play solo would consider charismatic nature crap, since it only benefits multiplayer. People who live strictly off of scavenged food and drinks would consider living off the land and master chef crap.

You are confusing your perception of the value added by perks as the absolute value.

I play party with 2-3 players 95% of time on my own dedicated server. We need food for the first two weeks maximum, then food in excess. And then we do it only for fair play, by and large it is not necessary to eat in game. 10-20% stamina penalty is laughable, especially if you're not into perverted with melee weapons too much

I specifically said "larger multiplayer". adding 2-3 more people makes it more difficult but still manageable for me. Larger multiplayer (6-8) makes it much more difficult.

As for the stamina penalty, I have never seen a 10%. It is always higher. And many people use melee weapons efficiently and have fun with them. Stamina penalties affect them a lot. 

While you are unable to use melee weapons effectively and have fun with them, many people can and do. Those people care about stamina and thus food.

 

[Roland]

not so much strengthened as made more interesting thanks to unique bonuses. 

This, I agree with. Some perks are quite original and interesting but many are just ho hum +%. 
 

I like unique abilities and bonuses. Although I think that Madmole would say that he used the books to  cover the unique and interesting bonuses. 

 

[MechanicalLens]

Just speaking out of curiosity @Roland but do you ever max out the perk abilities of a weapon or do you stop at 7/10 of the attribute rank?

 

[Roland]

Just speaking out of curiosity @Roland but do you ever max out the perk abilities of a weapon or do you stop at 7/10 of the attribute rank?

I've only maxed out a weapon perk once or twice back when the new perk system was new and I was testing a couple of the builds. I vastly prefer to spread points around and be a bit above average in many things rather than specialize in just one thing. I tend to buy perks based on my immediate needs and wants. I just started a new playthrough with a brother who has never played before and decided to go full knives so I'm pouring everything into that and trying my best to not get distracted by what looks shiny in any given moment.