PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[mstdv inc]

Where do you see proposals for global changes? By and large, I only suggested weakening imbalance mechanics and strengthening weak / useless

Hardcore mode is a separate checkmark for people like me, the same checkmark as creative mode for people like you. Even minecraft has both

Why? Can I get detailed constructive criticism on each item please?

Do you divide all the players into hardcore and casual?The third is not given?
And after that, you want criticism?Seriously?

 

[MechanicalLens]

Do you divide all the players into hardcore and casual?The third is not given?
And after that, you want criticism?Seriously?

It would probably be best if you leave this situation to the mods to deal with, otherwise you'll continue to go around this merry-go-round of opposing thought from here to Sunday.

 

[bachgaman]

Do you divide all the players into hardcore and casual?The third is not given?
And after that, you want criticism?Seriously?

I only see that you do not write anything in essence

You said that there are more important things, I asked which ones - you ignored

You called my suggestions of delusions not related to reality, I asked to justify, but again you are evading

I think it makes no sense to have a dialogue with you, casual gamer, if only because, according to your own words, you could not understand basic mechanics of the game in 50 hours by failing the game 6 or 7 times, because you are asking the developers to make it possible to disable the "stone age"

It is sad that developers are always guided by people like you, because people like you are majority, goodbye

 

[mstdv inc]

I only see that you do not write anything in essence

You said that there are more important things, I asked which ones - you ignored

You called my suggestions of delusions not related to reality, I asked to justify, but again you are evading

Я думаю, что нет смысла вести диалог с вами, казуальным геймером, хотя бы потому, что, по вашим собственным словам, вы не смогли понять основную механику игры за 50 часов, провалив игру 6 или 7 раз, потому что вы просите разработчиков сделать возможным отключение "каменного века"."

It is sad that developers are always guided by people like you, because people like you are majority, goodbye

All the changes that you propose are based on the initially incorrect position, when you divide the players only into casual and only into hardcore players.This is a very narrow mindset.
This is the criticism.Your position is not correct and I have given you the reason.

I'm not going to fall for your cheap provocations)

That's the end of it.

It would probably be best if you leave this situation to the mods to deal with, otherwise you'll continue to go around this merry-go-round of opposing thought from here to Sunday.

If a person understood this initially he would not have written such a post)

 

[Jost Amman]

@mstdv inc & @bachgaman

Please stop spamming the Dev Diary with this futile banter.

Open your own topic in the general discussions to sort it out. Thanks.

 

[meganoth]

Hi

thank you for constructive response

Likewise, I'm sure the devs value your feedback. (Although they tend to just skim longer opinion pieces, it is better to concentrate on few most important points). (Note, I do not speak for them though, I'm just a normal player with moderator rights)

a) I didn't say that skills and perks need overhaul, the skills system is good in general, there are just dead branches and because of this, numerous items are dead, just need to strengthen weak and weaken the strong so that all branches of development are playable. I used wrong word. Not "rework" - better "rebalance" 

Sure, but your opinion was that melee weapons are useless, which would amount to an overhaul if they were of the same opinion. By the way, you are pretty alone with that opinion in this forum at least, lots of people use melee extensively to save on ammo. That you have too much ammo at the moment so you don't need to save any is because a) the game isn't fully balanced and b) you are an experienced player playing vanilla.

The feature with bandits sounds cool, I hope we see it soon

b) I didn't know that the game positions itself as a platform for modders. Why is it so bad with them then? I tried mods, to be honest, even the most popular of them seemed to me to be raw crafts in which there are many ideas, but few developed ideas. Curved balance, poor quality graphics, no localization and so on. Although there are a lot of good things. Also, I don't like the mod installation system in this game.

Mods are in an early-alpha state as well . They have to adapt to a changing vanilla every time a new alpha comes out which takes time. Generally mods will trail vanilla in polishedness for quite some time because modders are more interested in features than polish and because they don't have the sources and need to work with the interfaces exposed. So they are quite limited in some things. Don't expect them to code a new AI any time soon for example . Since alphas don't change as much of the low-level stuff the quality of mods has improved though. I don't like all the changes that Darkness Falls does but in terms of polish it made a big leap in the last year. Can't speak about other mods yet, this is the first one my group tried in A19.

The installation system will improve but only near release of the game, TFP plans to use steam workshop

I like the vanilla version more even as it is now, I really like this game and what I wrote above is just problems in existing content. Notice in my post there are very few wishes about new content, I noted fairly fair shortcomings of the existing one. I could dream up anything, but this is not my business, I just gave feedback on existing entities and mechanics

3) but in this state, the game pushes player to intentional death. in turn, this devalues all survival

Players using intentional death happened with all versions of death penalty TFP tried. At the same time it can't be too punishing so it doesn't lead to death loops happening that would happen to new players. So the death penalty is a compromise like a lot of stuff in the game

4) If so, then it does not help them to penetrate into the fortifications. I noticed that some of them hit blocks chaotically, but that's not what I wrote about. As far as I understand, when they are in this state, they do not try to get to player in a different way, different from the path chosen by other zombies. They just hit the ground. 

Isn't that so?

They try to hit blocks in their way. IF the player is lower than them they will hit the ground as well. AI is very difficult in a voxel world. I too hope they add a value function to blocks nearer to the player but it is not sure if the 2 programmers involved in AI ever get the time for it as they have the difficult task to make bandits act well. Which is a task that will probably occupy them for a long time.

9) Yes, of course, I know about yellow backpacks, but they fall out quite rarely and, as I understand it, they fall out from members of horde, and not random vagrants. It's a trifle, forget it

In previous alphas people would farm zombies for loot, i.e. intentionally let zombies spawn (through screamers) to get easy loot. The devs said "We don't want a loot delivery service" and removed that. I'm pretty sure it won't come back. Except in mods, some of them increase loot bag frequency.

12) Yes, I thought that the problem is in lags. They have to do something about it, because in the late game you have to travel very far and spend 1/2 of time pressing shift + W is not the most fun activity, driving in the game is generally simple, somehow clumsy and primitive I don't even I know. I understand that this is not GTA, but still.

Not likely to get changed in my opinion. I expect that would be just too many low-level changes necessary to improve this. Modders don't have to respect min spec PCs, they increase vehicle speed quite often. Sorry, but it very much looks like you have to swallow the turd of installing mods

14) Yes, you are right, demolishers perform such a function and I am very glad that they are in game, because this is the only thing that can cause me a problem in the BM.

I won't argue, and again, I'm not talking about new content, but about revising the old one.

 

[bachgaman]

Sure, but your opinion was that melee weapons are useless, which would amount to an overhaul if they were of the same opinion. By the way, are pretty alone with that opinion in this forum at least, lots of people use melee extensively to save on ammo. That you have too much ammo at the moment so you don't need to save any is because a) the game isn't fully balanced and b) you are an experienced player playing vanilla.

Yes, they are useless, you will use club for a maximum of the first week and only against a small number of opponents, if by the end of the first week you do not have at least a blunderbuss and a pistol with a sufficiently large number of bullets, then you were doing something wrong

Now tell me where you will spend your skill points in the first week? Are you going to improve clubs knowing that you will receive a double-barreled shotgun in a few hours? Perhaps you will spend 1 point, then you will take more useful skills. And when you take on vital skills you will already have such an arsenal that you will not pick up either a club, a spear or a brass knuckle. This is what we are talking about.

Mind you, I wrote not only about melee weapons, but you chose this as the most unfortunate example after all, besides melee weapons and bows, there are a bunch of dull weak perks and you know this if you play this game

Mods are in an early-alpha state as well . They have to adapt to a changing vanilla every time a new alpha comes out which takes time. Generally mods will trail vanilla in polishedness for quite some time because modders are more interested in features than polish and because they don't have the sources and need to work with the interfaces exposed to them are limited in some things. Don't expect them to code a new AI any time soon for example . Since alphas don't change as much low-level stuff the quality of mods has improved though. I don't like all the changes that Darkness Falls does but in terms of polish it made a big leap in the last year. Can't speak about other mods yet, this is the first one my group tried in A19.

The installation system will improve but only near release of the game, TFP plans to use steam workshop

I played DF too and GnaMod. There are very good ideas, but the implementation is so-so. Personally, I don't understand why you mention modifications at all. Very comfortable position. Do you want a feature? Download the modification. Cool and very convenient. This is how you can answer any wish.

Players using intentional death happened with all versions of death penalty TFP tried. At the same time it can't be too punishing so it doesn't lead to death loops happening that would happen to new players. So the death penalty is a comproise like a lot of stuff in the game

I partially agree, but first of all, the game has quite flexible settings on very many points. This could be one of them. Second, I offered an elegant solution to the problem. Mode with 1 life, but with a save function. Thus, the player will try to survive, but will not be very upset after dying. And he will not be able to abuse death. All goals achieved

They try to hit blocks in their way. IF the player is lower than them they will hit the ground as well. AI is very difficult in a voxel world, I hope they add a value function to blocks nearer to the player but it is not sure if the 2 programmers involved in AI ever get the time for it as they have the difficult task to make bandits act well. Which is a task that will probably occupy them for a long time.

I agree, this is hard work. If it's not possible to make high-quality AI, so you can make them dumb but strong. You can make zombies with 10,000 health, but that's not very cool, right? Therefore, items such as 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 13, 14 appear. 

Although it seems to me I did not offer anything complicated. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's not difficult to make sure that all the zombies don't pound into one door.

In previous alphas people would farm zombies for loot, i.e. intentionally let zombies spawn (through screamers) to get easy loot. The devs said "We don't want a loot delivery service" and removed that. I'm pretty sure it won't come back. Except in mods, some of them increase loot bag frequency.

Easy to fix. Loot drops only from the first summoned horde. Is it difficult to implement programmatically? I don't think

Now people can abuse witches for farming experience in same way. Why didn't experience for killing zombies be removed?

 

[MechanicalLens]

Yes, they are useless, you will use club for a maximum of the first week and only against a small number of opponents, if by the end of the first week you do not have at least a blunderbuss and a pistol with a sufficiently large number of cartridges, then you were doing something wrong

Now tell me where you will spend your skill points in the first week? Are you going to improve clubs knowing that you will receive a double-barreled shotgun in a few hours? Perhaps you will spend 1 point, then you will take more useful skills. And when you take on vital skills you will already have such an arsenal that you will not pick up either a club, a spear or a brass knuckle. This is what we are talking about.

As someone who consistently uses every melee option in the game (minus stun batons, yuck), I can assure you beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are simply full of crap. To put it less bluntly, your claim that melee weapons are "useless" is completely unfounded outside of your own experience. I could understand your point of view if you were a new player and were just getting used to the game's mechanics and the feel of melee weapons, but unless I'm incorrect about this, you're not a new player.

If you don't like using melee, that's cool. I'm all for supporting players for playing the game how they want to play. But one tip I would give to anyone is to not judge the big picture based off of one's narrow window of experience.

Note: Regarding my blunt answer, it's nothing against you personally. I've just seen this argument crop up often enough that it's doing my head in a little.

 

[bachgaman]

As someone who consistently uses every melee option in the game (minus stun batons, yuck), I can assure you beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are simply full of crap. To put it less bluntly, your claim that melee weapons are "useless" is completely unfounded outside of your own experience. I could understand your point of view if you were a new player and were just getting used to the game's mechanics and the feel of melee weapons, but unless I'm incorrect about this, you're not a new player.

If you don't like using melee, that's cool. I'm all for supporting players for playing the game how they want to play. But one tip I would give to anyone is to not judge the big picture based off of one's narrow window of experience.

Man, I understand that at the Scavenger difficulty level, you can successfully kill zombies with a torch, you don’t need to tell me that you are investing skill points in a spear playing at a high difficulty level and you don’t suffer from it. You only do this if you want perversions

Im also playing with a club / baseball bat / steel club (in the last game I found steel club at a merchant in the first week) early days. So what? Yes, I killed zombies with 2.5 power attacks to the head, spending all the stamina on Insane difficulty. It was very cool, but as soon as I got a double-barreled shotgun and after 1-2 days more a pumpshotgun I forgot about this club forever. And imagine, I didn’t spend 5-10 levels on leveling up possession of this passable weapon

You did not understand at all. I did not say that clubs are useless. I said that the club perk is useless. I said that perks for bows, spears and brass knuckles are even more useless. Perks for crafting armor are generally discarded skill points.

Ponder

UPD:

you quote very nice btw

 

[MechanicalLens]

Man, I understand that at the Scavenger difficulty level, you can successfully kill zombies with a torch, you don’t need to tell me that you are investing skill points in a spear playing at a high difficulty level and you don’t suffer from it. You only do this if you want perversions

Im also playing with a club / baseball bat / steel club (in the last game I found steel club at a merchant in the first week) early days. So what? Yes, I killed zombies with 2.5 power attacks to the head, spending all the stamina on Insane difficulty. It was very cool, but as soon as I got a double-barreled shotgun and after 1-2 days more a pumpshotgun I forgot about this club forever. And imagine, I didn’t spend 5-10 levels on leveling up possession of this passable weapon

You did not understand at all. I did not say that clubs are useless. I said that the club perk is useless. I said that perks for bows, spears and brass knuckles are even more useless. Perks for crafting armor are generally discarded skill points.

Ponder

I typically play on either Warrior or Survivalist difficulty with running zombies. Maybe it's because I have 4,000 hours in this game, but I can confidently say that I am better at melee than with shooting guns.

Now if you're talking about Nightmare/Insane, then yes, I could agree with you that sledgehammers are really the only way to go.

Melee provides one advantage over all ranged weapons: they don't cost any ammo to use. I shared a screenshot of my horde night loadout and my base one time on the subreddit and somebody asked, "How do you have so much ammo? Did you spawn it in?" Nope; I simply use melee 99% of the time with my zombie encounters. (For specific details, I had 3 stacks of 7.62 ammo, 2 stacks of 9mm, and one stack of shotgun shells by night 7.)

Alright then. I'd suppose that is a more reasonable argument. Nevertheless by investing in the skill trees that melee weapons belong under you are outright increasing raw damage, so they aren't useless. But I would question anybody going for 10/10 of an attribute, melee or otherwise. (<------ As in, scratch my head at said individual's choices.)

Anyway, I'm done here for tonight. Apologies for the clutter @Roland

 

[bachgaman]

I typically play on either Warrior or Survivalist difficulty with running zombies. Maybe it's because I have 4,000 hours in this game, but I can confidently say that I am better at melee than with shooting guns.

Now if you're talking about Nightmare/Insane, then yes, I could agree with you that sledgehammers are really the only way to go.

Melee provides one advantage over all ranged weapons: they don't cost any ammo to use. I shared a screenshot of my horde night loadout and my base one time on the subreddit and somebody asked, "How do you have so much ammo? Did you spawn it in?" Nope; I simply use melee 99% of the time with my zombie encounters. (For specific details, I had 3 stacks of 7.62 ammo, 2 stacks of 9mm, and one stack of shotgun shells by night 7.)

Alright then. I'd suppose that is a more reasonable argument. Nevertheless by investing in the skill trees that melee weapons belong under you are outright increasing raw damage, so they aren't useless. But I would question anybody going for 10/10 of an attribute, melee or otherwise. (<------ As in, scratch my head at said individual's choices.)

Anyway, I'm done here for tonight. Apologies for the clutter @Roland

At the same time, you are only talking about clubs, but what about knuckle dusters, bow, spears and stun wands? Do you play with them? Do you improve perks on them?

This amount of ammo is not an achievement, merchants generously give ammo for 1st level quests. And you start to find them quite early. So I'm not surprised.

If upgrading club perk gave an area attack, knockback (not stunning) of enemy, attack speed or some stamina/sustain bonuses, but no, for 13+5 skill points you will receive double damage

In general, given that all these skills are used only at the beginning of game, it would be logical to remove or greatly reduce stat limitation from them (for example 1/1/1/2/3 strength for pummele pete) Then they could not have been touched

But armor crafting and some others still useless, 25% penalty reduce for so many skillpoints its a joke 

 

[Games'n'Grumble]

At the same time, you are only talking about clubs, but what about knuckle dusters, bow, spears and stun wands? Do you play with them? Do you improve perks on them?

This amount of ammo is not an achievement, merchants generously give ammo for 1st level quests. And you start to find them quite early. So I'm not surprised.

If upgrading club perk gave an area attack, knockback (not stunning) of enemy, attack speed or some stamina/sustain bonuses, but no, for 13+5 skill points you will receive double damage

In general, given that all these skills are used only at the beginning of game, it would be logical to remove or greatly reduce stat limitation from them (for example 1/1/1/2/3 strength for pummele pete) Then they could not have been touched

But armor crafting and some others still useless, 25% penalty reduce for so many skillpoints its a joke 

I suggest that you stop and stop proving that your subjective opinion is the only correct one. And don't say that you don't prove it - you use counterarguments - so you are proving your exceptional case. That's enough. If the developers want to hear you, they will hear you, do not clog the forum.
The only thing I will say on the topic is that one of the developers definitely plays on brass knuckles. Still useless? You don't have to answer, it's a rhetorical question.

 

[meganoth]

Yes, they are useless, you will use club for a maximum of the first week and only against a small number of opponents, if by the end of the first week you do not have at least a blunderbuss and a pistol with a sufficiently large number of bullets, then you were doing something wrong

Now tell me where you will spend your skill points in the first week? Are you going to improve clubs knowing that you will receive a double-barreled shotgun in a few hours? Perhaps you will spend 1 point, then you will take more useful skills. And when you take on vital skills you will already have such an arsenal that you will not pick up either a club, a spear or a brass knuckle. This is what we are talking about.

Spear (and perception in general) has not received the same scrutiny as other attribute trees. I find spear lacking as well, but use all other melee weapons against single enemies even up to end game. Consequently I also put points into the melee perks.

I usually don't play insane though and play what I like, not what is most efficient. Developers by the way have said they will balance the game in difficulty 1 (don't know the name, one above adventurer).

My best advice of the evening: Set loot abundancy to 50% (or even 25%, but be warned this isn't linear, 25% feels more like a 10% setting) and never select ammo if you get offered it as a quest reward (this is one of the things still not balanced in A19). You might appreciate melee a little better.

Mind you, I wrote not only about melee weapons, but you chose this as the most unfortunate example after all, besides melee weapons and bows, there are a bunch of dull weak perks and you know this if you play this game

It was the perks you specifically named, so I used them. When talking about useless perks here on the forum often people mention perks that others vehemently defend as essential to their playstyle. Which is good as the game would not have much replay value if you just wanted the same perks all the time. Though minmax players might have a problem with the game, granted. Strength and Fortitude are the best attribute trees, why have the others? Well, this is an RPG as well, not a competitive PvP game, it seems the devs want to provide different roles and balancing this to the hilt is not their foremost priority.

Lets look at some other perks that are often called useless:

It is obvious that the treasurehunter perk is not worth its perk points, but as I said perception wasn't really balanced yet.

It is obvious that Charismtic Nature is useless in single player. It is a situational perk, you will only use it if you are in a group and that is ok. Lots of the perks are situational. If you have no use for them it might just be your playstyle

Not going too much into armor perks, but heavy armor perk is valuable if you want to stay mobile and it isn't guaranteed that you ever get that convenient book that removes the penalty in combat.

I played DF too and GnaMod. There are very good ideas, but the implementation is so-so. Personally, I don't understand why you mention modifications at all. Very comfortable position. Do you want a feature? Download the modification. Cool and very convenient. This is how you can answer any wish.

Its just the place where you might find what you are looking for. Remember, I don't speak for TFP. I know a lot from having actually read every post in the dev thread since A16, but that makes my word not official. I just can say from experience that many of your wishes most likely won't happen, because of lots of different reasons, compromises and very often because of limited developer time. They simply have to prioritize.

I partially agree, but first of all, the game has quite flexible settings on very many points. This could be one of them. Second, I offered an elegant solution to the problem. Mode with 1 life, but with a save function. Thus, the player will try to survive, but will not be very upset after dying. And he will not be able to abuse death. All goals achieved

As I said they have tried a lot of penalties and I think they called the current penalty "good enough for release". Which doesn't mean that is the last word. If they like your idea, maybe they change it again. That I say that it isn't likely is just some background information for you, it is not to somewhow devalue your idea.

Me personally, I don't care what the death penalty is because I don't exploit death. Though I would not be against making it more severe and even argued for it the last time it was changed. It's just that some parts of the game have been discussed to death already (pun intended) in this forum and it isn't worth talking much about them anymore.

I agree, this is hard work. If it's not possible to make high-quality AI, so you can make them dumb but strong. You can make zombies with 10,000 health, but that's not very cool, right? Therefore, items such as 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 13, 14 appear. 

Look at other games, many of them fail with AI, even AAA games with hundreds of devs. Civilization 6 for example. I think Fataal, one of the AI devs, has said there will be an AI setting in the config, maybe that will help you.

This is also one area where some improvements might happen yet, but it largely depends on the current code and what is possible with not too much time investment

I like that the zombie AI is dependable by the way, it makes building complicated trap designs possible. Building for me is interesting because I like to solve the puzzle-like problem of getting the zombies lined up for the traps and my weapons.

Although it seems to me I did not offer anything complicated. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's not difficult to make sure that all the zombies don't pound into one door.

Well, they actually do not. Fixed. You were absolutely right, didn't take long.

Seriously, I'm not saying it won't happen, but as I said it depends how long it would take to do. And it always takes longer than we from the outside expect. Trust me, every alpha there is a bunch of players coming here and saying "That's it? One year for just these few features? I could have done that in a week".

Easy to fix. Loot drops only from the first summoned horde. Is it difficult to implement programmatically? I don't think

Now people can abuse witches for farming experience in same way. Why didn't experience for killing zombies be removed?

Because a majority of devs wanted to keep it. Because a majority of players expect/want xp for kills. Because the more xp sources you have the better the game is balanced for different activities and killing is a major activity in this game.

 My opinion always was that removing xp from kills would be better .and if not that at least removing the xp display whenever you get xp would be good. But I am not a dev.

 

[meganoth]

If upgrading club perk gave an area attack, knockback (not stunning) of enemy, attack speed or some stamina/sustain bonuses, but no, for 13+5 skill points you will receive double damage

You usually spec into one (or at max two) attributes deeply. Attributes are like classes, just that you are not restricted to one. Double-classing for example is quite possible. Taking the first perk point for some perks in attributes you never want to spec deeply into is also possible and actually there are perks where that makes sense

Now if you spec into a specific class or attribute for any reason,it makes sense to use the gun of that class and the melee weapon of that class (because it is the cheapest way to get good with a gun or melee weapon). You don't pay 13+5 for the gun perk and 13+5 for the melee perk and 13+5 for some utility perk there, you pay 13 for the class (or is it 15?) and then 5 for melee.

Or not if you only want to shoot. But then it still is only 5 if you change your mind. You are right that it isn't worth going for clubs when you spec into agility, but the system this RPG uses does not balance single perks as much as it balances attributes! And it nudges you to select an attribute and get the perks of that tree mainly.

 

[BFT2020]

Man, I understand that at the Scavenger difficulty level, you can successfully kill zombies with a torch, you don’t need to tell me that you are investing skill points in a spear playing at a high difficulty level and you don’t suffer from it. You only do this if you want perversions

Im also playing with a club / baseball bat / steel club (in the last game I found steel club at a merchant in the first week) early days. So what? Yes, I killed zombies with 2.5 power attacks to the head, spending all the stamina on Insane difficulty. It was very cool, but as soon as I got a double-barreled shotgun and after 1-2 days more a pumpshotgun I forgot about this club forever. And imagine, I didn’t spend 5-10 levels on leveling up possession of this passable weapon

You did not understand at all. I did not say that clubs are useless. I said that the club perk is useless. I said that perks for bows, spears and brass knuckles are even more useless. Perks for crafting armor are generally discarded skill points.

I think Meganoth stated it well.  Just because you think a perk is useless doesn't mean it is useless overall.

I play Survivalist (2nd highest level) and I use melee until the end.  Since I use melee, I spec' into the weapon I am using (clubs, sledges, knives) so that I can still use them at the end.  Never once thought that putting points in those perks was a waste.

I do take guns with me, but I use those as a last option if I am getting overwhelmed.  I want to save my ammo for BM night as I typically have a lot of turrets to restock and need to have a good supply on me since I play with max zombies (64).

 

[JCrook1028]

Yes, they are useless, you will use club for a maximum of the first week and only against a small number of opponents

Absolutely wrong. Clubs will go deep into late game and if used correctly all the way thru the game.

 

[beerfly]

How about we add a couple zeros to the end of that detection increase, eh?

And they can name it Rage Quit Sense Mode

Madmole described that it as really good game changer, for us that like hardcore. Can't wait to try it.

 

[Blake_]

How about we add a couple zeros to the end of that detection increase, eh?

Lol.... It would basically remain the same, as I'm guessing the furthest detection range is also the furthest spawn possible (I think it is something around 80+meters for spawns in the wild and 8 meters for sleeper volume spawns). We get to fight all the enemies all the time. Priceless.

 

[SnowDog1942]

How about we add a couple zeros to the end of that detection increase, eh?

Unless you are trying to trick me, 2.500 is the same as 2.5 , @Roland we need your help!

 

[Star69]

I love the stun baton, love the mods for it, the books and perks too. Day 60, still using it, wouldn’t go anywhere without it. If used correctly, in my opinion, it is the most powerful melee weapon in the game. It keeps you from taking damage while other melee weapons cannot. Like others have said, sometimes I use a gun when getting over run and I’m out of candy. With candy, I have no qualms wading into a wondering of 30 using nothing but the baton and I’ll take no damage. So, in some players opinions, melee weapons are very useful even late game.