PC Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?

[Roland]

Seems like this community is full of people who aren't quite sharp enough to understand this criticism in general. As Jenshae said, auto-aggro is just a cheap trick. In contrast to what most of you morons seem to think, it doesn't actually make the game more challenging. 

I guess you'd like it if medical bandages sometimes, instead of healing you, reduced your health by half its current amount. Wouldn't that be interesting and challenging? 

Most of you won't understand this comparison any more than you understand the topic anyway, so it's pretty pointless. Like trying to teach long division to Aboriginals. 

Oh....we get it just fine. And I can teach long division to anyone....

As for your medical bandage analogy, you are the one who is proving your ignorance. What it would ACTUALLY be like is if when you used a medical bandage, instead of automatically healing 100% of the time without needing to do anything else, 10% of the time you'd have to go through a minigame of washing the wound and stitching it up carefully and applying some antibacterial ointment before applying the bandage in order to get the healing.

Since I know you won't understand this truer analogy unless it is painstakingly explained to you step by step I will do that for you-- Hey! Exactly the same as what I would do if teaching long division to an Aborigonal....

1) Putting on a bandage and having it automatically heal your wound with no other effort 90% of the time is like entering 90% of the sleeper volumes and being able to shoot unconscious enemies in the head-- practically an auto-kill.

2) Putting on a bandage and having it not work automatically 10% of the time and instead having you perform some kind of skill-based first aid mini game is like entering an auto-aggro  sleeper volume where instead of shooting immobile targets and getting your easy guaranteed kill you have to play a sort of minigame of retreating, hiding, re-emerging and shooting conscious roaming enemies in the head.

Finally, when you perceive that an entire community seems stupid beyond belief and it is only you and maybe one other person who is sane, it really is time to look in the mirror and do some soul searching

 

[Synvastian]

Oh....we get it just fine. And I can teach long division to anyone....

As for your medical bandage analogy, you are the one who is proving your ignorance. What it would ACTUALLY be like is if when you used a medical bandage, instead of automatically healing 100% of the time without needing to do anything else, 10% of the time you'd have to go through a minigame of washing the wound and stitching it up carefully and applying some antibacterial ointment before applying the bandage in order to get the healing.

Since I know you won't understand this truer analogy unless it is painstakingly explained to you step by step I will do that for you-- Hey! Exactly the same as what I would do if teaching long division to an Aborigonal....

1) Putting on a bandage and having it automatically heal your wound with no other effort 90% of the time is like entering 90% of the sleeper volumes and being able to shoot unconscious enemies in the head-- practically an auto-kill.

2) Putting on a bandage and having it not work automatically 10% of the time and instead having you perform some kind of skill-based first aid mini game is like entering an auto-aggro  sleeper volume where instead of shooting immobile targets and getting your easy guaranteed kill you have to play a sort of minigame of retreating, hiding, re-emerging and shooting conscious roaming enemies in the head.

Finally, when you perceive that an entire community seems stupid beyond belief and it is only you and maybe one other person who is sane, it really is time to look in the mirror and do some soul searching

Damn....I leave for 3 months without checking in and Roland is still swinging like a champ, people are still complaining about stealth (I was too, so don't think i'm immune to backlash lol) I've played a few hrs recently and noticed stealth still has issues, auto trigger rooms suck but are manageable with a thief mentality ("when in doubt know your way out", blind corners and a couple floor explosives if need be) but normal POIs are easy as heck with full cloth/stealth boots/machete/bow...playing only on nightmare/always run and doing POIs at night with either a helmet light or NVGs if im lucky is my favorite way to play...they aren't any harder at night than day so the low visibility is actually helpful

 

[Jenshae]

Oh....we get it just fine. And I can teach long division to anyone....

As for your medical bandage analogy, you are the one who is proving your ignorance. What it would ACTUALLY be like is if when you used a medical bandage, instead of automatically healing 100% of the time without needing to do anything else, 10% of the time you'd have to go through a minigame of washing the wound and stitching it up carefully and applying some antibacterial ointment before applying the bandage in order to get the healing.

What you are describing, sounds like 10% of the time, you have to disable alarms or kill a particular zombie first because you can make logical actions to the desired out come.

The aggro rooms are more like the wound suddenly exploding with smurfs for no logical reason, which you then need to swat with a frying pan before you can stop the bleeding.

 

[meganoth]

What you are describing, sounds like 10% of the time, you have to disable alarms or kill a particular zombie first because you can make logical actions to the desired out come.

The aggro rooms are more like the wound suddenly exploding with smurfs for no logical reason, which you then need to swat with a frying pan before you can stop the bleeding.

First part, the exploding stuff, really sounds like a better analogy to the auto-aggro room. But applying the frying pan needs no skill at all, it is a boring single click action without choice or gameplay. Please go back to the drawing board if you want to improve Rolands analogy.

PS: In the old game "Thief", could the main character restealth himself after he was detected? I.e. if he hid in a dark corner or ran away for example

 

[Roland]

What you are describing, sounds like 10% of the time, you have to disable alarms or kill a particular zombie first because you can make logical actions to the desired out come.

The aggro rooms are more like the wound suddenly exploding with smurfs for no logical reason, which you then need to swat with a frying pan before you can stop the bleeding.

Now see?  I can appreciate your joke. 

What I’m a little confused about is how you could berate me for my sarcasm against a particular play style but then approve the post of @Yark that blatantly calls people morons, insults the community, and skates the edge of racism against the indigenous people of Australia.  But they did it to defend you so that “thanks” emoji is warranted....I guess. 

 

[Yark]

Now see?  I can appreciate your joke. 

What I’m a little confused about is how you could berate me for my sarcasm against a particular play style but then approve the post of @Yark that blatantly calls people morons, insults the community, and skates the edge of racism against the indigenous people of Australia.  But they did it to defend you so that “thanks” emoji is warranted....I guess. 

You're playing a game where you turn the living dead into a mess of flesh and bone and blood. Don't be so thin-skinned over the inability of all human populations to perform on the same intellectual level. 

 

[Jost Amman]

You're playing a game where you turn the living dead into a mess of flesh and bone and blood. Don't be so thin-skinned over the inability of all human populations to perform on the same intellectual level. 

Thank God that Yark is here to educate us all!  :hail:

Just by reading your posts I already feel a bit smarter! Thank you so much!  :ranger:

 

[Roland]

You're playing a game where you turn the living dead into a mess of flesh and bone and blood. Don't be so thin-skinned over the inability of all human populations to perform on the same intellectual level. 

Now look...you just completely missed that what I was actually being "thin-skinned" over was the hypocrisy shown by @Jenshae. But that's fine, because I actually do understand the variations of intellectual levels of people.

 

[Jenshae]

... and back to our regular scheduled programming before a mod closes down this thread for drama ...

I can think of one reason Thief mechanics would be challenging to implement. In Thief they have fixed scenes in which, they can simply manually demarcate where you are concealed in shadows and by how much.

7 Days to Die would have to add up factors and light sources. 
- Objects of one block or two between player and zombie, player using % of that concealment. (Moving to peak the corner, standing on a quarter block behind a single full block, etc)
-  Camouflage factors. (Under a tree, in grass, ect)
- Direction of light sources and where shadows would be, plus recalculating them if a light source is shot with an arrow. (This would be the worst one to figure out, however, I think it would have amazing aesthetic benefits with different depths to shadows.)

 

[Danidas]

... and back to our regular scheduled programming before a mod closes down this thread for drama ...

I can think of one reason Thief mechanics would be challenging to implement. In Thief they have fixed scenes in which, they can simply manually demarcate where you are concealed in shadows and by how much.

7 Days to Die would have to add up factors and light sources. 
- Objects of one block or two between player and zombie, player using % of that concealment. (Moving to peak the corner, standing on a quarter block behind a single full block, etc)
-  Camouflage factors. (Under a tree, in grass, ect)
- Direction of light sources and where shadows would be, plus recalculating them if a light source is shot with an arrow. (This would be the worst one to figure out, however, I think it would have amazing aesthetic benefits with different depths to shadows.)

The thing is the devs have officially stated multiple times that this isn't a stealth game nor is it ever going to be as they have no intention of making it one. Instead stealth is nothing more then a tacked on feature to check off the "Does game have Stealth?" check box with just the basic framework to make it mostly work. The same as brawling checks off the "Can you play by punching zombies to death?" check box with a similar degree of effort from the devs to make it mostly work.

As a result of this it's foolish to expect anything beyond basic minimal effort from the devs with a "Keep it Simple Stupid" or KISS approach. Especially when you consider that multiple times the devs have indicated that their top focus is hitting the Gold status in the game so they can move on to the next game. Which they still have a large chunk of game to do including the most difficult part in the form of NPCs who will literally be a massive game changer. As we are getting enemies with guns who will be far more deadly than anything we have now. Also lets not forget the special infected who will impact the classic run and gun play style the most as combined with NPCs it will be far easier to deal with them via stealth. 

Now as for stealth in A20 we already know that they may tweak the very rarely used Awake Sleeper Volume to be less destructive and easier for them to use. As a result the zombies will most likely end up awake and wondering their spawn area but not destroying everything in their way. Which will create hyper alert zombies that are harder to predict to spice up stealth. Other then that the realist in me strongly doubts that we will see much more in regards to stealth.

Personally I still enjoy playing stealth in this game quite a lot but I know and respect the reality that it will never be good enough to forgo the rest of the game to focus completely on.

 

[Roland]

... and back to our regular scheduled programming before a mod closes down this thread for drama ...

If anything, this thread will be closed for cycling through the same arguments and repeating the same content already posted several times by people who obviously haven’t read through it all...

The thing is the devs have officially stated multiple times that this isn't a stealth game nor is it ever going to be as they have no intention of making it one.

They also have no intention of changing areas that they intend to be a surprise (even if it only works once) by placing telltale signs that it is coming. 
 

They also will not add cosmetic visible triggers for the ambush that might make players think that such areas can be de-activated—which would then result in overwhelming demands for such mechanics. 

I get that for some, these things anger you and you don’t like the design choice. I get the frustration of anyone who prefers some game mechanic and wishes the devs would devote more time on that mechanic to make it deeper and feels disappointed to realize that the devs plan to keep that mechanic simple and abstract because it isn’t their focus. The Pimp Dreams section is filled with ideas of people who want to see this or that superficial aspect of the game get more TLC and rival other games they’ve played that were dedicated to those features.