PC Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?

[Yark]

lol...there’s your problem right there. Anyone who has spent enough time with this game to learn its established structure knows that zombies never exist until you are proximate to their spawn location.  Whether you find it artificial or insulting  or not is immaterial. It is a limitation of the voxel environment and an unfortunate downside that must be lived with for the possibility to be able to play the game in the first place.
 

it may not be defensible, but it is inevitable and a permanent attribute of this game. It’s one of those things you just have to accept and forgive if you plan to spend time playing. If it is such a deal breaker that you actually feel insulted by it then move on now because the devs didn’t put this in as an intentional feature because they thought zombies spawning around you would be cool— it exists as an unavoidable by-product of their chosen world building structure that has many other unique benefits compared to other games that use static non-interactive worlds. 

Now auto-aggro rooms ARE an intentional feature that the level designers want to exist and in that case I contend that the beauty of the design is in the eye of the beholder. 
 

This is simply not true, as enemies can and do exist nearly everywhere else in the game - when they spawn - at a range where you can shoot them from a distance. In the example I provided, the enemies do not spawn even when you're just a few blocks above their heads; you need to physically be in the room.

It's possible that their spawn box has an unusually small Y axis height compared to other spawn boxes, but it is certainly the case in other areas (e.g. Shamway and Shotgun Messiah) that enemies will spawn when you are above or below them. The same is not true for this example in the apartment building, and seems to have blatantly been designed as a "gotcha" trap where the player is actually forced to fall through the floor if he wants to clear the POI.

It's not a challenge. It's just lazy and insulting game design. 

I looked up the definition of artificial, and this is not it.  This is an opinion, and should be treated as such.

You aren't speaking for everyone.  If you don't like something, fine.  Why not just say that?

I can tell that you are an immensely intelligent man. 

 

[Kalen]

It's not a challenge. It's just lazy and insulting game design. 

One thing from this thread is clear.... you are easily insulted.

 

[meganoth]

This is simply not true, as enemies can and do exist nearly everywhere else in the game - when they spawn - at a range where you can shoot them from a distance. In the example I provided, the enemies do not spawn even when you're just a few blocks above their heads; you need to physically be in the room.

It's possible that their spawn box has an unusually small Y axis height compared to other spawn boxes, but it is certainly the case in other areas (e.g. Shamway and Shotgun Messiah) that enemies will spawn when you are above or below them. The same is not true for this example in the apartment building, and seems to have blatantly been designed as a "gotcha" trap where the player is actually forced to fall through the floor if he wants to clear the POI.

It's not a challenge. It's just lazy and insulting game design. 

I can tell that you are an immensely intelligent man. 

The same situation is in the bear den. The two bears in there are not spawned until you enter the room. This can be done through going down a ladder until your are actually in the room.

AFAIK the designers could make the shape of the spawn box include a part of the upper floor so the bears are spawned earlier. At least if the box can be an irregular shape.

If that is the case it would probably be really intended as a challenge. And therefore definitely lazy, arguably even insulting (if one were to take a zombie game seriously ).

 

[Danidas]

This is simply not true, as enemies can and do exist nearly everywhere else in the game - when they spawn - at a range where you can shoot them from a distance. In the example I provided, the enemies do not spawn even when you're just a few blocks above their heads; you need to physically be in the room.

It's possible that their spawn box has an unusually small Y axis height compared to other spawn boxes, but it is certainly the case in other areas (e.g. Shamway and Shotgun Messiah) that enemies will spawn when you are above or below them. The same is not true for this example in the apartment building, and seems to have blatantly been designed as a "gotcha" trap where the player is actually forced to fall through the floor if he wants to clear the POI.

It's not a challenge. It's just lazy and insulting game design. 

I can tell that you are an immensely intelligent man. 

As I said before zombies only exist in POI after you cross into their 3d box shaped spawn volume that the level designer intentionally draws around where they want the encounter to happen. In this case that box is specifically drawn to stop just below the floor of the room above with the floor acting as a barrier to restrict line of sight into the room below. As it is intended to act as a trap by the level designer to increase the difficulty of the POI.

A big note with the game is that every POI has a intended path and way to go through them that is designed so that the player almost never need to break a single block. Which the spawn volumes are setup along this path to carefully block the player from directly seeing the zombies pop into existence as they travel a long the path. Which creates the illusion that the zombies were there all along and aren't just popping into existence seconds before you see them. However the second the player starts breaking or placing any blocks this illusion quickly crumbles as the player can easily see the truth.

The reason the system works this way is very simple as the whole game is designed to carefully limit the number of active entities in the world to maximize performance. With the idea that your playing on a computer that meets the minimal requirements of the game which are the equivalent of playing on a potato by today's standards. Combined with how insanely taxing the rest of the game is due to its voxel nature it only leaves a razor thin amount of head room for game play that devs are trying to squeeze the most out of.

Edit- Going back to that specific trap room. Any competent stealth player upon seeing that the level designer wants them fall in a room without a clear escape path would ensure that they had blocks on their bar. So that they could quickly build their way out of the room in the advent that it was a trap.

Also note that the level designers cannot use the Auto Aggro mechanic on any zombies that the player can see. So it is not possible for zombies that you see asleep to be Auto Aggro. Since the Auto Aggro flag only comes into the play the exact second the zombies pop into existence and will cause them to target/attack the player the exact second they are spawned into the world. Which works the same way as the Bloodmoon horde, minus the constant gps as they only know where your at the second they aggro and you can break aggro with them.

So as a result if the level designer wanted the zombies in the room that you need to fall into to be Auto Aggro then they have no choice but to spawn them after you've already entered the room. Otherwise they would have to be normal sleepers who may or may not wake up when you fall in or awake zombies who would literally rip the poi apart even with out being aggro on you. (hence why they are so rare)

 

[Roland]

This is simply not true, as enemies can and do exist nearly everywhere else in the game - when they spawn - at a range where you can shoot them from a distance. In the example I provided, the enemies do not spawn even when you're just a few blocks above their heads; you need to physically be in the room.

It's possible that their spawn box has an unusually small Y axis height compared to other spawn boxes, but it is certainly the case in other areas (e.g. Shamway and Shotgun Messiah) that enemies will spawn when you are above or below them. The same is not true for this example in the apartment building, and seems to have blatantly been designed as a "gotcha" trap where the player is actually forced to fall through the floor if he wants to clear the POI.

I see what you're saying. I'd be for extending the volume vertically so that the zombies spawn as you get near the place where the floor breaks away. I don't see a problem with hearing a mass of zombies below you before you actually hit the trap. 

As for the truth of what I posted I stand by it. Volumes spawn zombies when you draw near to them or if they are about to come into the player's line of sight. So you can at time have a far away volume that spawns in zombies because the designers knew that it would be in view once you went through that door but the overall established structure of the game in regards to sleeper volume spawns is that only the nearest to your location are going to spawn zombies and the rest will be empty until you draw near.

There will be some situations where it will be less than ideal but once again, the developers are subject to the limitations of the technology.

 

[theFlu]

Hmm, I smell trouble spawning in aggroed zeds from outside their volume. Sure, it depends on the floor plan. But, whenever such an encounter is meant to also trap the player - such as the apartment building trap room - wouldn't spawning the zeds early cause them to rush to the player's position via whatever path they find. They would end up breaking out of the apartment and going for the stairs to circle around the player. I guess that could also work as a trap, but it's not exactly the same encounter.. Point being, that wouldn't be a universal solution.

For the bears, they'd likely end up beating on a wall in frustration, negating the design of the encounter.

 

[Ramethzer0]

I can tell that you are an immensely intelligent man.

And I can tell you don't get fact checked very often when you use words improperly.

 

[Roland]

Hmm, I smell trouble spawning in aggroed zeds from outside their volume. Sure, it depends on the floor plan. But, whenever such an encounter is meant to also trap the player - such as the apartment building trap room - wouldn't spawning the zeds early cause them to rush to the player's position via whatever path they find. They would end up breaking out of the apartment and going for the stairs to circle around the player. I guess that could also work as a trap, but it's not exactly the same encounter.. Point being, that wouldn't be a universal solution.

For the bears, they'd likely end up beating on a wall in frustration, negating the design of the encounter.

If the zombies spawned as you approached the spot where the floor crumbles beneath you, a first-time player wouldn't necessarily understand that the sounds of zombies aggroing somewhere nearby had anything to do with the trap. They would still likely move forward and possibly still fall into the trap. For repeat players, it would give them the opportunity to break the floor and shoot the zombies from above. I doubt that there would be time for the zombies to break free of the room and path up to the player. Also, it has already been established that the zombies that wake up in auto-aggro volumes do not have hordenight GPS ability on the player. Only those who see the player when they wake up make a target of the player and home in. Players that remain out of sight are not targeted and can hide and remain in stealth. In this case, the zombies would not be aware of the player above them being as how the player is out of sight and so they would be awake and aggravated but not pathing to specifically to the player.

I don't think that extending the y-axis of the sleeper volume in this particular case would be a bad thing and if @Yark's only real objection is that it is unfair that they spawn while you are in freefall so you have no options available to you, then that would be an acceptable solution in my mind. This particular case does not mean ALL auto aggro rooms are bad, however.

 

[theFlu]

If the zombies spawned as you approached the spot where the floor crumbles beneath you, a first-time player wouldn't necessarily understand that the sounds of zombies aggroing somewhere nearby had anything to do with the trap. They would still likely move forward and possibly still fall into the trap. For repeat players, it would give them the opportunity to break the floor and shoot the zombies from above. I doubt that there would be time for the zombies to break free of the room and path up to the player. Also, it has already been established that the zombies that wake up in auto-aggro volumes do not have hordenight GPS ability on the player. Only those who see the player when they wake up make a target of the player and home in. Players that remain out of sight are not targeted and can hide and remain in stealth. In this case, the zombies would not be aware of the player above them being as how the player is out of sight and so they would be awake and aggravated but not pathing to specifically to the player.

I don't think that extending the y-axis of the sleeper volume in this particular case would be a bad thing and if @Yark's only real objection is that it is unfair that they spawn while you are in freefall so you have no options available to you, then that would be an acceptable solution in my mind. This particular case does not mean ALL auto aggro rooms are bad, however.

Hmm.. I tend to stop and figure out what started to make noises in survival games, but that might not be common, sure. It is an early warning though, which is fine, preferable even, for the specific case of the apartment building. Not so great for the Bear Den-style "this is clearly a hole I'm meant to jump in with no way back" sort of places. Active zeds there would kinda spoil the trap, it's no longer just a bad idea, it's literally full of zeds down there.

I'm not entirely convinced about the auto-aggro-crew Not moving to the player. That's mostly because I haven't tested it to that level.. I know they don't have feral senses (GPS), and you can "lose" them, but they seem to start Moving Somewhere the moment they wake up. That Somewhere is likely the location of the player that triggered the room. Merely my gut instincts from normal playing, but I would have to see something that counters it to doubt it..   IF they start the normal "pathing to a spot", they will go through blocks to get there.. and the apartment building trap group is large enough to get through the door quite fast, especially later in the game with glowies and such.. not that I remember if the staircase there is even pathable; I just used that as an example.

But overall, it can be made to work, might just need to rework some of the places where auto-aggro has been used.

 

[Danidas]

In my experience they GPS to your general location when they aggro but quickly loss track of you afterwards. Which results in them pathing towards where you were when they got triggered to spawn in. But if you get far enough away to a safe distance they will begin to break aggro and go into search mode until they fully loss aggro or get close enough to redetect you. Now while in search mode they will head in the general direction of where they last saw you and can be distracted by throwing rocks. Lastly the higher your From the Shadows is the faster they will give up and fully loss aggro.

 

[Jenshae]

I was going to write a script to edit all of the XML flags, however, we switched to another game instead. 

 

[PinkLed5]

I'm not gonna read all the replies, but I main a stealth build.  Padded armor, advanced muffled connectors, From the Shadows, and Hidden Strike.  I love stealth in this game. I also love that sometimes I'm surprised by agroed zeds.  95% of the time though, I can clear a PoI without waking a single zed.

 

[Roland]

I was going to write a script to edit all of the XML flags, however, we switched to another game instead. 

Let me guess!

Fish-in-a-Barrel: The Stealth Shooting Game

 

[Jenshae]

Let me guess!

Fish-in-a-Barrel: The Stealth Shooting Game

Instead of being sarcastic, Fun Pimps could look to better stealth games for inspiration. Thief came out in 1998, I seriously doubt the mechanics used in that game would be very taxing on modern hardware (mileage varies with implementation).

7 Days to Die relying on a *magic* mechanic to always trigger a volume, is like films that rely on cheap tricks to startle the audience, half way through the film, it gets boring and you might hang on just to see the ending.

 

[Roland]

You think me being sarcastic in response to a “I was going to do something but decided to move on instead” post means that TFP can’t work to improve stealth? You have far too high a view of my powers. Believe me, what the programmers actually do and what I joke about have zero causal ties and they certainly aren’t mutually exclusive. 
 

Have fun with your new game.

 

[Jenshae]

You think me being sarcastic in response to a “I was going to do something but decided to move on instead” post means that TFP can’t work to improve stealth? You have far too high a view of my powers. Believe me, what the programmers actually do and what I joke about have zero causal ties and they certainly aren’t mutually exclusive. 
 

Have fun with your new game.

You think don't think the developers read the forums? 
That the general annoyance at the steep game stage curve in Alpha 18 fell on deaf ears?

So, when you have a post mocking someone and a lot of people add reactions, laughing at what you said, it can look like everyone is laughing at the concerns of the players. That and it being you, probably has more impact than you think.

Most developers only read the forums because:

• It saves time to not type out replies
  
• It looks like they are undermining or do not trust their community staff and volunteers if they keep stepping in.
  

 

[Roland]

You think don't think the developers read the forums? 

I think you can't take a joke...

That the general annoyance at the steep game stage curve in Alpha 18 fell on deaf ears?

I don't know what this means. I don't remember this being of any concern or annoyance. iirc, A18 still had different gamestage modifiers for each level of difficulty and that modifier could easily be adjusted-- same, in fact as A17 and A16.  It was A19 that changed to a uniform gamestage across all difficulties and tied loot quality and enemy difficulty to gamestage. So I guess if you were playing on Insane in A18 and then stayed on insane in A19 it might have felt like TFP softened the game stage curve which I guess they did-- but it was all done to unify the loot and enemy progression under gamestages and to de-couple gamestage from the difficulty option. It wasn't because the devs read about universal annoyance at how fast gamestage ramped up in A18 as opposed to A17 or A16. If someone express annoyance at how quickly Demolishers were appearing they would have probably told them to lower their difficulty or change the modifier value in the xml.

So, when you have a post mocking someone and a lot of people add reactions, laughing at what you said, it can look like everyone is laughing at the concerns of the players. That and it being you, probably has more impact than you think.

You basically said you and your friends were done with this game and moving on. What do you care? Why are you still engaging here if your group isn't playing 7 Days to Die any longer?My joke was poking fun at the idea that people are essentially asking for enemies to remain asleep 100% of the time and calling that better stealth mechanics. It is a ridiculous stance, imo, and I don't think some people really even get that that is what they are asking for when they request for auto aggro rooms to be removed or create a mod that turns all the flags to zero. These people are not wording that way but when it boils down to the results of what the game would be like if they got their way it would be every room in every POI 100% of the time always filled with unconscious enemies that you always have first chance to shoot in the head AKA "fish-in-a-barrel shooting game". So my JOKE was just a general commentary on what I consider to be a detrimental request and not really at your personal expense. My dismissive TONE was in reaction to someone who feels it necessary to tell the community that their entire group has decided to drop the game and move on. That was all for you.

Most developers only read the forums because:

• It saves time to not type out replies
  
• It looks like they are undermining or do not trust their community staff and volunteers if they keep stepping in.
  

The developers read the forums to get a sense of what people are concerned about. They also read twitter, facebook, discord, reddit, and steam. Not prolifically, of course, and not every team member reads everything. Some read this and some read that and we often talk about the concerns we read about. The number one reason they don't reply is because they don't know the answer or can't reveal the answer-- usually because things are still in flux and they know if they say something, readers will hold them to it as though it was a promise.

Worry about undermining my or any of the other moderator's authority is not even a conscious concern of any of the developers. If Joel felt he needed to put me in my place for some reason, he would not hesitate or hold back. If my joke offended you, then I'm sorry. It was meant as a tongue-in-cheek jibe at the potential end result if one faction of the community gets their way. It was not against you personally. I admit that I don't particularly care for goodbye posts. I find them melodramatic and unnecessary. When I'm done playing a game I just stop playing. I don't go to that game's forum and announce to all the people who still care about the game that me and mine are finished and have moved on. That is probably where you are feeling the tone of my posts hitting you personally.

Of course, if you're NOT really done with the game then my tone doesn't really apply to you after all so just shake it off.

 

[Jost Amman]

Instead of being sarcastic, Fun Pimps could look to better stealth games for inspiration. Thief came out in 1998, I seriously doubt the mechanics used in that game would be very taxing on modern hardware (mileage varies with implementation).

7 Days to Die relying on a *magic* mechanic to always trigger a volume, is like films that rely on cheap tricks to startle the audience, half way through the film, it gets boring and you might hang on just to see the ending.

Actually I do agree that the auto-trigger rooms should be removed or at least changed. In the past there has been a passionate discussion about this, and I've personally expressed my concerns to the devs after which I've been "educated" directly by faatal on the matter.

That being said the current stealth mechanic is not so bad, it's just that it isn't applied consistently all over. Auto trigger rooms are an example, but I also don't like that wardrobe doors (the ones behind which sleepers sometimes hide), when destroyed with an arrow don't wake up zombies. At the same time, if you destroy anything else nearby, the entire room immediately wakes up!

There's also the other, more technical problem of "sound dampening", meaning that currently the sound is not reduced by walls but only by distance. This creates situations in which you can inadvertently attract the attention of zombies outside a POI when breaking something that is deep inside the walls of a house while at the same time some actions won't wake up a sleeper in your same room!

So I think the main reason they used auto-triggers is because they couldn't reproduce the desired "alarm" effect by using the current sound/hearing system. This, in turn, has probably been done also for performance reasons, since checking how every sound is perceived by every zombie can take a toll on the game engine. BTW: as far as I know performance is also the reason they removed the already working smell mechanic and never reintroduced it.  :noidea:

 

[Jenshae]

You basically said you and your friends were done with this game and moving on. What do you care? 

Alpha 20.

 

[Yark]

Seems like this community is full of people who aren't quite sharp enough to understand this criticism in general. As Jenshae said, auto-aggro is just a cheap trick. In contrast to what most of you morons seem to think, it doesn't actually make the game more challenging. 

I guess you'd like it if medical bandages sometimes, instead of healing you, reduced your health by half its current amount. Wouldn't that be interesting and challenging? 

Most of you won't understand this comparison any more than you understand the topic anyway, so it's pretty pointless. Like trying to teach long division to Aboriginals.