PC Stone->Iron->Steel is unbalanced.

[DaChibii]

The problem is that statement is 'progression should be balanced without skills' and the only way you can do that is by not having skills affect progression. 

I do get what you're trying to say but it doesn't work that way. You made a choice not skilling into harvesting and that has an effect. That's your choice. T2 tools (and probably weapons too) are better if you skill into them especially for the roles that play in (for tools harvesting time). That's how the game is balanced because the devs with the data looked at, and figured out that was best for the overall whole system. 

 

[Kalen]

The problem is that statement is 'progression should be balanced without skills' and the only way you can do that is by not having skills affect progression. 

I do get what you're trying to say but it doesn't work that way. You made a choice not skilling into harvesting and that has an effect. That's your choice. T2 tools (and probably weapons too) are better if you skill into them especially for the roles that play in (for tools harvesting time). That's how the game is balanced because the devs with the data looked at, and figured out that was best for the overall whole system. 

I have no problem with them being better if you skill into it.  I endorse that fully, as you said that is part of progression.   I object to them being worse than a lower tier because you didn't.... thats got nothing to do with progression.... in fact it is regression.   You shouldn't do worse because you found a higher tier item.   

 

[Roland]

No, thats not what I said.... skills should absolutely improve your effectiveness with tools.   But whether you are unskilled, sort of skilled, or an absolute master.... Steel should always be superior to iron which should always be superior to stone.  That is what I meant.

Okay Kalen—- but it is. In durability and damage value which speak to the properties of steel and iron vs stone they ARE superior. 
 

Stamina has to do with the person wielding the tool. A weak asthmatic person using a small hatchet may very well be more effective in the long term than they would be using a heavy iron two-handed axe. There are tools I can use that my daughters can’t at all due to lack of strength and skill. They would be more effective using simpler tools even though those tools are not as good as mine. 
 

 Now, whether the game handles that idea effectively is another matter.

Iron tools take more stamina primarily because the devs are using stamina use as a gate. I think we all know this. Because of that, the actual difference in strength and endurance to effectively wield an iron pickaxe vs a stone hatchet is exaggerated which is why it feels gamey and off. But there is a kernel of reality to it and while I agree that an iron tool will be superior in all circumstances to a stone tool in terms of durability and damaging power per swing, I disagree that stamina usage is a property of stone or iron and that you can have better or worse effectiveness with a superior tool vs an inferior tool. 

 

[Kalen]

Okay Kalen—- but it is. In durability and damage value which speak to the properties of steel and iron vs stone they ARE superior. 
 

Stamina has to do with the person wielding the tool. A weak asthmatic person using a small hatchet may very well be more effective in the long term than they would be using a heavy iron two-handed axe. There are tools I can use that my daughters can’t at all due to lack of strength and skill. They would be more effective using simpler tools even though those tools are not as good as mine. 
 

 Now, whether the game handles that idea effectively is another matter.

Iron tools take more stamina primarily because the devs are using stamina use as a gate. I think we all know this. Because of that, the actual difference in strength and endurance to effectively wield an iron pickaxe vs a stone hatchet is exaggerated which is why it feels gamey and off. But there is a kernel of reality to it and while I agree that an iron tool will be superior in all circumstances to a stone tool in terms of durability and damaging power per swing, I disagree that stamina usage is a property of stone or iron and that you can have better or worse effectiveness with a superior tool vs an inferior tool. 

A completely reasonable argument.... grounded in reality.   In this case, however, I would say that gameplay is more important than reality.   A player should, IMO, feel like a higher tier item is an upgrade.  To me, it currently doesn't (unless you're perked into strength)

 

[RyanX]

I'm mostly surprised that Steel tools even get figured into this since I've never had to use them during the last couple of alphas.  I always get an auger before I need to get into steel tools.

 

[Solomon]

I've long been of the opinion that sexyrexy is way too over powered with how much it not only effects tool use but melee combat to the point of just about always being a must have perk. Since it effects all aspects of the game in both direct and indirect ways due to how it reduces the burdens of stamina's forced time delays. Which either forces you to take a short break of your current task or expend further resources to try to minimize via other means aka coffee.

I feel that if we ever get sexrex nerfed it will only make these t2 tools worse aswell as further slowing down the gameplay what is something we shouldnt consider in a game where you need to meet ends before every 7th day.

 

[Gazz]

Sexosaurus is very powerful indeed.

Everything is a lot easier for people who have played the bits off of this game but we can't make a game for people with 500+ hours in the game.

If it was just up to me, game difficulty would have more varied effects beyond enemies becoming more HP spongy.

Alas, a) it's not just up to me and b) doing something like that should happen after release because that would be a serious rebalancing effort.

 

[Solomon]

Sexosaurus is very powerful indeed.

Everything is a lot easier for people who have played the bits off of this game but we can't make a game for people with 500+ hours in the game.

If it was just up to me, game difficulty would have more varied effects beyond enemies becoming more HP spongy.

Alas, a) it's not just up to me and b) doing something like that should happen after release because that would be a serious rebalancing effort.

Honestly increasing difficulty should change zombie behaviour and type related "perks", like spider zombies become more silent and sneak around, ferals become faster and fattos become more spongy.

Also at this point any kind of change requies serious rebalancings because the devs are keep messing with the core aspects of the game like last time with the looting change now put us in a situation where players are complaining about how the stone age is both too long and boring, it is something what should have been checked around to gather opinions in the the exp.versions and adjusted before entering the stable variant but that last step was skipped entirely.

 

[meganoth]

Honestly increasing difficulty should change zombie behaviour and type related "perks", like spider zombies become more silent and sneak around, ferals become faster and fattos become more spongy.

Also at this point any kind of change requies serious rebalancings because the devs are keep messing with the core aspects of the game like last time with the looting change now put us in a situation where players are complaining about how the stone age is both too long and boring, it is something what should have been checked around to gather opinions in the the exp.versions and adjusted before entering the stable variant but that last step was skipped entirely.

Well, if they could do it that fast then they would have changed the loot system of A18 in A18 exp already.

A18 loot was found wanting and so a next iteration was done in A19.

A19 loot was again found wanting and so a next interation will be done in A20.

See a pattern there?

 

[Maxley]

I've never done a detailed analysis on weapons, so I accept your statement here on the state of ARs.   However, it doesn't really change my stance on tools.   Steel should always be superior to iron which should always be superior to stone.  Independent of any skills and/or buffs.

I’d say that in terms of block damage, a iron tool should be better than a stone tool and a steel tool should better than an iron tool. So even a level 6 stone axe won’t do as much block damage as a level 1 iron axe, but it might be somewhat close so if you installed full mods in the level 6 stone axe the damage might be only slightly less.

in terms if stamina I’d say it is perfect as it is now. If you want to effectively utilize iron tools you will need a couple of ranks in sex Rex and coffee on hand, and for steel you’ll need full perks in sex Rex and a coffee.

 

[Kalen]

in terms if stamina I’d say it is perfect as it is now. If you want to effectively utilize iron tools you will need a couple of ranks in sex Rex and coffee on hand, and for steel you’ll need full perks in sex Rex and a coffee.

Which means iron and steel tools are really only meant for people that perk into strength.   I can't agree with that.

 

[theFlu]

Curious how sta-focused this thread is, while in the same str-tree there's two other talents that combined multiply the yield five fold.

I haven't checked, but I wouldn't be surprised if for the same skill point expense you would get better results from the others.

Having things change when going from a "multipurpose beginner gadget" into three separate tools for the same tasks, well.. doesn't bother me. I usually do skip iron axes though, so, there's that.

 

[Solomon]

Well, if they could do it that fast then they would have changed the loot system of A18 in A18 exp already.

A18 loot was found wanting and so a next iteration was done in A19.

A19 loot was again found wanting and so a next interation will be done in A20.

See a pattern there?

Yeah i see but i dont understand why the pattern is like that. If something doesnt work in the experimental version and leaves you with wanting then why not adjust it again before putting it in the stable?

Most games i know use the experimental versions to experiment and if something doesnt work out they scrap that before it goes into the next stable.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Most games i know use the experimental versions to experiment and if something doesnt work out they scrap that before it goes into the next stable.

This is early access. Basically every mechanic in every version is "experimental".

The branches you refer to as "experimental" are just for alpha-tests to changes not breaking/corrupting the game because of bugs. So the branch "stable" means it (most likely) won't break the game, not that it is "finally" balanced.

So the changes you are asking for are not adjustments, but major changes. And major changes are tested with next alpha (see the name?), not with a bugfix update. Features may also be removed again. The whole game accross various alphas is still work in progress. There is nothing "stable" (as you understand it) yet.

BTT: I agree that the overlap between tools (and also weaons) of its age are to big and interferes with the progression system. In my current playthrough i basically skipped the iron shovel, because my T6 stone shovel was still better than every iron shovel i found. The amount of mod slots interferes that additionally. Once you have a T5/6 you can put 3-4 Mods into it and a T1/2 of the next age most times is worse AND can again only fit 1 mod.

In opposite to weapons: The different tiers have also slightly different use cases. E.g. auto shotgun does less damage than pump, but shoots faster and has bigger magazine (that's why i never use autoshotgun, imho it's always worse than pump, because with shotgun i want to have max damage per shot).

With tools it's different. They become slower but increase blockdamage. The blockdamage increase has to be not just higher, it also has to overcome the speed malus.

 

[meganoth]

Yeah i see but i dont understand why the pattern is like that. If something doesnt work in the experimental version and leaves you with wanting then why not adjust it again before putting it in the stable?

Most games i know use the experimental versions to experiment and if something doesnt work out they scrap that before it goes into the next stable.

Liesel already gave the appropriate answer, I'd just like to say why not "scrap" it in this specific case.

Scrapping, i.e. going to the previous version, is only advisable if the previous version is better. While you say it is for you, the devs (and many players) have a different opinion: A18 was suboptimal, A19 is suboptimal.

Whether some think A19 is a big step in the right direction and just needs an adjustment or is just as suboptimal as A18 doesn't matter, going back does not improve the game (and is additional work)

We already know of one adjustment (more difficult zones) that needs a lot of implementation effort and obviously needs a whole alpha to develop. If they completely overhaul the loot system (at least one dev seemed to say this) it is also work that simply can't be done parallel to all  the bug fixing the experimentals are mainly used for.

 

[Danidas]

A little know fact of the game is that it phones home to to devs all the time with a ton of useful info. Which they mainly utilize to balance/adjust the game for each alpha instead of mainly going on user input. However since they mainly use this data it can take quite a long time to build up a enough of it for each change to get the full picture of it. Which is why the devs go so long between changing things as they want a big enough data set to comfortably evaluate it.

So far in A20 we know that they are re-balancing the loot tables with the data gained from A19 and will hopefully implement the area based game stage bonus system. Which will assign different biomes and maybe POIs with a bonus to your game stage as long as you're in that area. Aka walk into Shotgun Messiah factory day 1 and instead of having a game stage of 1 it will be as if it were 50 and all the loot/zombies will reflect this to make it both harder and more rewarding. This way it will once again be possible to get guns and steel tools day one but your way more likely to die doing it. 

 

[JCrook1028]

A little know fact of the game is that it phones home to to devs all the time with a ton of useful info. Which they mainly utilize to balance/adjust the game for each alpha instead of mainly going on user input. However since they mainly use this data it can take quite a long time to build up a enough of it for each change to get the full picture of it. Which is why the devs go so long between changing things as they want a big enough data set to comfortably evaluate it.

So far in A20 we know that they are re-balancing the loot tables with the data gained from A19 and will hopefully implement the area based game stage bonus system. Which will assign different biomes and maybe POIs with a bonus to your game stage as long as you're in that area. Aka walk into Shotgun Messiah factory day 1 and instead of having a game stage of 1 it will be as if it were 50 and all the loot/zombies will reflect this to make it both harder and more rewarding. This way it will once again be possible to get guns and steel tools day one but your way more likely to die doing it. 

Yea in A19 they introduced this, it did not exist in previous versions tho.