PC Should repair be changed to fix the game economy?

[Psychodabble]

To be perfectly clear: I support deepening the repair mechanic in a way that adds meaningful choice and improves the gameplay loop. I do not support changing the repair mechanic to "fix" an imaginary "economy". This is why I have answered "NO" to the OP's poll question.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

I do not support changing the repair mechanic to "fix" an imaginary "economy".

A change like i explained, would fix the "economy" (at least improve it).

But you are right, changing it just for changing it in whatever way is pointless.

 

[meganoth]

You are correct that items of similar quality perform so similarly as to be indistinguishable from one another in practical use cases. That, however, is not the issue...the issue is player feeling. When it comes to player feeling there is a clear preference for improvement in any game that uses items and item statistics. As soon as numbers get involved humans, and by extension gamers, want to see to those numbers go up over time. As soon as we get the sense that our numbers are stagnating or that there is no chance to improve them, the fun factor diminishes.

Let's assume that you are correct in your example that you will return to 72 damage from 70 in relatively short order. How does that feel? Not like progression, because you've now spent X amount of time/effort just to get back to where you already were. That's the opposite of fun, IMO. Fun comes from feeling like you are getting better and moving ahead, not treading water. Even if that feeling is illusory because the actual difference in numbers is miniscule, that doesn't change the impact of the feeling on your gameplay experience.

I would rather keep hunting in the hope of finding upgrades rather than praying I've stockpiled enough backups to avoid losing ground. Maybe that's just me, but I don't think it is.

There is not much leeway for improvement here. If the gun with 72 damage is in your hand (and assuming it is already the top weapon you found/crafted from a bunch of them) there is no or nearly no improvement anymore to be had in this tier. You are stagnating already.

If you have to go back to a damage 70 weapon, the next 71 or 72 is a lucky find again. And it is the motivation to produce some more tier 5 guns from the otherwise useless weapon parts in the hope of getting another 71 or 72.

But I'm sort of practical, I don't get emotional with guns. Possibly lots of other players are different here.

 

[Psychodabble]

There is not much leeway for improvement here. If the gun with 72 damage is in your hand (and assuming it is already the top weapon you found/crafted from a bunch of them) there is no or nearly no improvement anymore to be had in this tier. You are stagnating already.

If you have to go back to a damage 70 weapon, the next 71 or 72 is a lucky find again. And it is the motivation to produce some more tier 5 guns from the otherwise useless weapon parts in the hope of getting another 71 or 72.

But I'm sort of practical, I don't get emotional with guns. Possibly lots of other players are different here.

I have some serious issues with the way the stat ranges are currently configured, but that's a topic for another thread...

I hope my larger point is clear that perpetual advancement or at least the feeling of a chance at advancement is key to preserving and promoting player motivation. This applies to every item in the game and regardless of how emotional people get about digital items.

 

[Rince]

I don't think the complaints were about 120 bullets for completing a tier5 quest. They were about getting 120 bullets for a tier1 quest.

Having a pistol and 120 bullets is a game changer in early game.

Having a pistol and 12 bullets in early game is an emergency fund while you still whack at the zombies with a club.

By the way, I want to complain that the Tier V rewards are pretty lackluster regarding the amount of work.

But I think that there was a tweak incoming for that, or I was imagining things again, which is always a possibility.

Sure, a glass of water in the desert is priceless. But a glass of water in the desert is still priceless when you went past an oasis 10 hours earlier and forgot to fill up.

Repair kits are so easy to get that the blame is on you for making them artificially valuable

Being a moron is an integral part of the gameplay of the game for me!

What's the fun of playing perfectly? (Not as if I could, but still!)

And I don't like the idea of losing things, I mean, if I finally get a good weapon, and it's gonna break what's the point of hunting nice things.

It's like the wellness, I got so feed up of that that I just didn't care anymore and treated the bottom cap as the normal.

 

[meganoth]

By the way, I want to complain that the Tier V rewards are pretty lackluster regarding the amount of work.

But I think that there was a tweak incoming for that, or I was imagining things again, which is always a possibility.

Being a moron is an integral part of the gameplay of the game for me!

What's the fun of playing perfectly? (Not as if I could, but still!)

And I don't like the idea of losing things, I mean, if I finally get a good weapon, and it's gonna break what's the point of hunting nice things.

It's like the wellness, I got so feed up of that that I just didn't care anymore and treated the bottom cap as the normal.

That is one way to see it.

I like to find nice things like Grandpa's Moonshine or a plate of spaghetti even though they "break" immediately when I use them.  A good weapon is a good weapon whether I have it only for a week or forever.

Lets not forget that at a normal progression it would go somewhere like this: You might find your first quality 3 weapon on day 13. But the chance for q3 weapons is constantly growing (before and after day 13) so the next q3 weapon you might find at day 16 besides lots of q2 weapons. At that time your current q3 weapon will be at half durability and you will be happy that you found a substitute already. Or you have bad luck and by day 19 the q3 is no use anymore and you have to use a q2 weapon. But now the chance to find a q3 are even better and inevitably you will find another one and you will be happy about finding it. Well maybe you would not, but I would be happy about finding a q3 again.

I have some serious issues with the way the stat ranges are currently configured, but that's a topic for another thread...

I hope my larger point is clear that perpetual advancement or at least the feeling of a chance at advancement is key to preserving and promoting player motivation. This applies to every item in the game and regardless of how emotional people get about digital items.

But why is there no feeling that you can advance anymore? Nobody said anything about removing better weapon qualities. If there are still better weapons than yours they would still be in an alternate game with degradation.

If you have a good quality 5 weapon in your hand and whether it degrades or not, there is still a q6 weapon in the game you could find.  

 

[RipClaw]

Well maybe you would not, but I would be happy about finding a q3 again.

And before that you will be frustrated and angry that you lost your Q3 gun and have to use the Q2 which has one modslot less.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

And before that you will be frustrated and angry that you lost your Q3 gun and have to use the Q2 which has one modslot less.

Just if you didn't care for it NOT to become unusable. If it is worth keeping it and you don't have any suitable replacment for ist, you should care for THAT.

You will not loose it by accident suddenly. It degrades slowly with the repairs (if you don't repair it without loss with the required effort) . It's your DECISSION how to handle it. If you don't care and throw just cheap repair kits onto it until you can't use it anymore, it's YOUR fault.

For god's sake, is it really that hard to understand?

 

[Psychodabble]

For god's sake, is it really that hard to understand?

I don't think everybody is reacting to your suggestions...some are surely reacting to the OP.

 

[Kalen]

And before that you will be frustrated and angry that you lost your Q3 gun and have to use the Q2 which has one modslot less.

Sure would....

I get frustrated and angry when I get infected from the first zombie that hits me.

I get frustrated and angry when a structure I'm building collapses

I get frustrated and angry when I die

Are you suggesting we should get rid of anything that makes someone frustrated and angry?   I can understand someone not liking item degradation, but using a reason of "it makes players frustrated" isn't a great argument against it.

Item degradation adds difficult choices to the game and increases the value of crafting.   These are both, in my opinion, excellent reasons to include it.

 

[Psychodabble]

But why is there no feeling that you can advance anymore? Nobody said anything about removing better weapon qualities. If there are still better weapons than yours they would still be in an alternate game with degradation.

If you have a good quality 5 weapon in your hand and whether it degrades or not, there is still a q6 weapon in the game you could find.  

Not sure when I ever specified blue weapons...

This is about all items, all the time. Even when  the player is decked out in purple gear, the game should create motivation to get out and get more...to get the best possible versions of their chosen gear set...to get perfect rolls on all gear...to grind away at this game without an endgame.

That perfect gear becomes a tangible advantage, no matter how tiny, that the player can justify pursuing. If those perfectly rolled pieces can't be preserved in perfect form indefinitely, they become collectors' items instead of practical parts of the game because nobody would actually USE their perfectly rolled items. If you find something amazing, you should be able to keep it, IMO...if the cost for that is higher than it currently is, that's totally fine, but the possibility would have to exist.

 

[Kalen]

nobody would actually USE their perfectly rolled items

Huh?   I would.   We had degradation in the game before and no one made that argument that I ever saw.  

 

[Psychodabble]

Sure would....

I get frustrated and angry when I get infected from the first zombie that hits me. 

I get frustrated and angry when a structure I'm building collapses 

I get frustrated and angry when I die 

Are you suggesting we should get rid of anything that makes someone frustrated and angry?   I can understand someone not liking item degradation, but using a reason of "it makes players frustrated" isn't a great argument against it.

Item degradation adds difficult choices to the game and increases the value of crafting.   These are both, in my opinion, excellent reasons to include it.

You seem to be missing the counterplay aspect.

1) If the first zombie that hits you infects you that's actually super unlucky and might screw up your start, but there are two obvious counter plays: don't get hit until you have been playing a bit and had a chance to get some honey or dedicate your time to finding honey/antibiotics after you got hit.

2) The clear counterplay is to plan your structure better and make better use of scaffolding.

3) The counterplay is don't die. Dying means you failed to survive. There are probably multiple reasons why you died to learn from. This is especially important to dead is dead players like me. 

What's the counterplay to degradation? If there isn't one, that feels bad in a different way than those other examples. You're losing out not by your own fault but by bad RNG. RNG should be there to add variety, not determine your fate.

I don't know if increasing the value of crafting is what the Pimps have in mind. They took away T6 crafting as a deliberate move to decrease the value of crafting relative to looting.

Huh?   I would.   We had degradation in the game before and no one made that argument that I ever saw.  

When did we have degradation?

 

[Kalen]

I don't know if increasing the value of crafting is what the Pimps have in mind. They took away T6 crafting as a deliberate move to decrease the value of crafting relative to looting.

They don't.... Joel has already stated that item degradation is not coming back.  

When did we have degradation?

I forget how far back it goes, but it was removed in A17, I believe

 

[Psychodabble]

They don't.... Joel has already stated that item degradation is not coming back.  

I forget how far back it goes, but it was removed in A17, I believe

I don't remember that...

A16 definitely had zero degradation at max skill.

When was workbench combining removed? Because that was another way to maintain zero degradation.

I don't remember a time when this game ever had degradation without a way to avoid it indefinitely.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Other opinion.

When people bring up changes in areas of the game like this one, I tend to always think in terms of the very late game in higher difficulties.
The way things are right now, and the way they have been for quite some time, is that in late game with higher difficulties, you have just two main things you focus on.
These are sustaining your repair kit supply and your ammo supply. You could include base repairs, but really this is not much in comparison.
This is basically it, and for me, this is enough. A lot of time is invested in just this. It is very tedious and not very fun.
 
The ideas presented in the first post make it so repairing is more interesting, but in late game when dealing with this on top of sustaining ammo supplies on a daily basis, it would get very old, very quickly.
 
Any changes in this area of the game needs to consider the impact on late game, especially in higher difficulties. Ideas of completely breaking items so that cannot be repaired, could make late game an unsustainable venture. In other words, you might be reducing the total possible days someone could play the game. If you complicate things too much, you get similar results especially for solo players who eventually cannot possibly keep up with all the tasks required to make it through the hardest hordes.
 
I would rather see ideas that keep you engaged in less tedious tasks to sustain yourself in late game. Something like special missions (preferably split into several stages, requiring a few days to complete) where once you complete them, you can repair everything that's on you or fill your inventory with ammo.

 

[Kalen]

I don't remember a time when this game ever had degradation without a way to avoid it indefinitely.

Pretty sure it did at one point.

Any changes in this area of the game needs to consider the impact on late game, especially in higher difficulties. Ideas of completely breaking items so that cannot be repaired, could make late game an unsustainable venture. In other words, you might be reducing the total possible days someone could play the game. If you complicate things too much, you get similar results especially for solo players who eventually cannot possibly keep up with all the tasks required to make it through the hardest hordes.

Well the game is currently having its systems balanced on default settings.  Once they're satisfied with that, they'll adjust higher difficulties to be balanced with the systems they come up with.

 

[Psychodabble]

Pretty sure it did at one point.

Care to elaborate? Which Alpha(s)? I've only been around since Alpha 10, so maybe it was some time before then?

If so, it's been a VERY long time since that idea has been part of this game.

 

[Kalen]

Care to elaborate? Which Alpha(s)? I've only been around since Alpha 10, so maybe it was some time before then?

If so, it's been a VERY long time since that idea has been part of this game.

Sorry, not 100% sure.

However, if having a way to negate degradation by having a high skill makes it more palatable, I'd be completely in favor of that.   As long as you can only negate up to what you could craft.

Again, it's all academic as it's already been made clear that its not coming back.   I'd love to mod it in, but there doesn't seem to be a purely XML solution for that.

 

[Solomon]

Care to elaborate? Which Alpha(s)? I've only been around since Alpha 10, so maybe it was some time before then?

If so, it's been a VERY long time since that idea has been part of this game.

Alpha 13 maybe, im not sure but its in the code still. Every item has a line what says if something breaks it deletes itself and you can set it true or false.