PC Advice for Higher Level Blood Moons - Base/Defense? Alpha 19 (b180)

[meganoth]

90 min days, making it out of cobblestone/cement works too for early hordes. only real damage will be the bars.

Sometimes, but they are more just to delay than anything critical only time they get hit really is if a cop reallllly screws his aim lol. I finish most horde nights with the poles intact, but disabled from their self damage for shocking thing.

Honestly though vanilla horde nights are kinda a joke you don't need much to win them. The only real threat to bases ever is demolishers, the rest honestly won't do much in a well built base.

The mod I play has radiated zombies coming at you on the day 7 horde on 90 min days on nomad, and if its not radiated its feral minimum. Day 14  or the 21 horde I had a few demolishers come in the waves. They aren't that hard to handle just don't use turrets and have good aim, or detonate them away from base if u can.

For the first 2 vanilla hordes I don't even build a base, I just find a poi where its at least cobble stone, and block off 3 of the 4 blocks of the entrance, which has the zombies focus on the one with the empty space, and I just melee the zombies to death while repairing that single block thats seperating me from them. I've never gotten super far in vanilla though, because quite frankly the game bores me by day 7 or 14, there just is not enough to do in the game thats actually intersting. I've experienced high lv vanilla horde nights thru the mod I play, as its day 14 horde is like a day 70-100+ horde in vanilla. Once your established in vanilla there is literally nothing else to keep playing for. Compared to darkness falls, where there is 2 weapon tiers (Titanium and sci-fi) above the normal and a whole titanium tier for blocks and armor etc, Plus the stat system was tossed in the trash where it belongs and he has a class system with each class having special recipes, and they have a mastery too which u can loot, buy off a special trader, or do enough quests to gain 30 trader reputation then he'll offer to sell it to you. Gives endgame goals, something vanilla sorely lacks.

I'm just getting tired of TFP removing choice from the player, every alpha takes something away and add's nothing back, First was digging zombies, then the vultures and swimming zombies, and in A20 they are going to screw with vehicle offroading (was supposed to be in a19 but was pushed back to A20+), removing yet more choice from the player.

So you listed multiple zombie abilities added and called it removing choice. You complain about vanilla being too easy and at the same time complain about the easiest cop outs of horde night made difficult or impossible. You could ask DFs KhaineGB sometime if he would have allowed easy horde night evasion in his mod if TFP hadn't closed that hole already.

You complain about vanilla as if it is vanillas job to keep experienced players occupied indefinitely, while most players by now know that thats the job of mods. Vanilla is the entry level. 

 

[Vampirenostra]

Just build it in creative. As good as old times.

And as you probably noticed -> it is the day)

 

[Fox]

Hmm.  'On paper', it looks like you'd have difficulties with that defense.

1. Don't the first zombies destroy a spike somewhere early on, and then all the rest of them move to that area where the path in is shorter?  In other words, this looks like a layout where the chain is only as strong as its weakest link.  In fact the more I think about it, having to cover all 360°, with the number of spikes required going up with the square of your protection depth, doesn't seem efficient at all.
   
2. Isn't it a pain (literally ) to maintain that huge spike field?  It's too deep to reach every spike in the middle that need repairs, like if they get spat on or a spider jumps on them.  Maybe you can just lay a row of wooden frames over the spikes for access - I haven't seen if you can build on top of spikes.
   

No idea what you're talking about. They attack from all directions and aimlessly run at the spikes and occasionally go for the stairs. Also, spikes are easy to maintain and hardly cost anything in later stages. I'm sure it helps the fact that I don't just sit there letting the base defenses do all the work. I do of course shoot off around 1000 rounds during blood moon to hold them back, but I mainly do that to avoid boredom. Also, even if by chance they did create a path in the spikes to get closer to the base, that just leaves a sort of choke point to shoot them easier. We're talking about 8+ layers of spikes plus the 5+ layers of electric fence. They're never going to reach the base... at least not so far. If the time comes when they're starting to get a little too close for comfort, I'll just add more layers of spikes... problem solved.

All these elaborate bases I constantly see all the time just makes me laugh as they're never 100% full proof reliable and all it ever takes is 1 bad blood moon night to see it all crumble down or the players run away in fear of losing their stuff. My sister keeps building bases like these and then constantly complains because it rarely works out that well for her.

How is having to replace / repair a bunch of blade traps and concrete / steel all the time more efficient than replacing 20 or so metal spikes given the fact that iron is so easy to get? 5 - 10 minutes of replacing / repairing spikes and barbed wires to 100% and my base is completely ready to go for next blood moon.

 

[Crater Creator]

No idea what you're talking about. They attack from all directions and aimlessly run at the spikes and occasionally go for the stairs. Also, spikes are easy to maintain and hardly cost anything in later stages. I'm sure it helps the fact that I don't just sit there letting the base defenses do all the work. I do of course shoot off around 1000 rounds during blood moon to hold them back, but I mainly do that to avoid boredom. Also, even if by chance they did create a path in the spikes to get closer to the base, that just leaves a sort of choke point to shoot them easier. We're talking about 8+ layers of spikes plus the 5+ layers of electric fence. They're never going to reach the base... at least not so far. If the time comes when they're starting to get a little too close for comfort, I'll just add more layers of spikes... problem solved.

Well then I'm genuinely confused.  Those spikes are on the ground, at waist height, rather than in the ground.  That means they're in the way for AI pathing purposes, and the zombies would prefer to go around.  This comes up often enough that I made my avatar to help spread awareness about it.  So as soon as one spike breaks, there will be a way in where they only have to go through 7 spikes instead of 8.  And it's my understanding that they will ALL switch to that easier path once created.  Maybe a few do something random just for randomness's sake, but the A* pathfinding algorithm that they're all using recognizes the lower weight path within seconds of it opening up.  In the long run, they should work their way in having only destroyed 8 spikes, plus whatever they destroy incidentally.

Again, that's how I understand the current AI.  I'm not disputing your results, but they conflict with my understanding.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

And it's my understanding that they will ALL switch to that easier path once created.  Maybe a few do something random just for randomness's sake

From my experience it's not exactly all. But almost every Z coming from that direction anyway. Zs that spawn at the opposite site of our base usually don't run to the other side, even if there is a path through the spikes. But i guess that's an AI calculation that weighs path distance VS obstacles, and results obstacles are less overhead than distance in this case.

Since we played in a prison poi, the outbounds of our base were relatively large and we only used 2 rows of spikes. May look different if you play with a small footprint base like 5x5 and  8 layers of spikes.

 

[Fox]

Well then I'm genuinely confused.  Those spikes are on the ground, at waist height, rather than in the ground.  That means they're in the way for AI pathing purposes, and the zombies would prefer to go around.  This comes up often enough that I made my avatar to help spread awareness about it.  So as soon as one spike breaks, there will be a way in where they only have to go through 7 spikes instead of 8.  And it's my understanding that they will ALL switch to that easier path once created.  Maybe a few do something random just for randomness's sake, but the A* pathfinding algorithm that they're all using recognizes the lower weight path within seconds of it opening up.  In the long run, they should work their way in having only destroyed 8 spikes, plus whatever they destroy incidentally.

Again, that's how I understand the current AI.  I'm not disputing your results, but they conflict with my understanding.

I usually have them in ground like in your avatar, but this time, I got lazy, and I guess this version of the game doesn't matter anymore? I mean, I do see the occasional zombie re-directing to the easier path, but most of them just run at the spikes randomly. And like I said, even if they all re-directed to the easier path, that would just mean it's a choke point for me to shoot them easier. My modded TAR with 60 rounds doing I think 92 damage just mows them all down, so they only ever break past 2 or 3 layers of spikes in the end. Once I'm able to find a level 6 M60... I'll give that a try and see how well that does, although that one has modding flaws which bothers me a bit (full auto only, maybe more).

 

[meganoth]

Well then I'm genuinely confused.  Those spikes are on the ground, at waist height, rather than in the ground.  That means they're in the way for AI pathing purposes, and the zombies would prefer to go around.  This comes up often enough that I made my avatar to help spread awareness about it.  So as soon as one spike breaks, there will be a way in where they only have to go through 7 spikes instead of 8.  And it's my understanding that they will ALL switch to that easier path once created.  Maybe a few do something random just for randomness's sake, but the A* pathfinding algorithm that they're all using recognizes the lower weight path within seconds of it opening up.  In the long run, they should work their way in having only destroyed 8 spikes, plus whatever they destroy incidentally.

Again, that's how I understand the current AI.  I'm not disputing your results, but they conflict with my understanding.

Explanation could be that there is no path to him. When you stand on a big block of concrete they probably all go into destroy mode.

 

[JCrook1028]

And it's my understanding that they will ALL switch to that easier path once created.

Some zombies are random.

 

[Psychodabble]

You guys are all doing too much. This base is all you need:

Rear view:

The spikes at the back are not at all necessary, I was just experimenting. I took the basic concept from a Jawoodle video and customized it pretty heavily. This is the middle form of the base. You can build it on day 2 with wood and that will work nicely for the first 2 horde nights. Upgrade as you go until you can add the traps and eventually get to steel, hopefully before Demos show up. It's a melee/close combat base with turrets for when you need to repair if at all. Most zeds get stuck in the electro fence and you can bash/blast them at your leisure. You will need to shoot spiders and be careful because every once in a great while they will land a perfect jump and come right at you. Maintenance is SUPER minimal...maybe 3 blocks to repair, plus the fences. As long as you don't screw up and trigger the Demos it should be an indefinite cakewalk. You can also make it modular by building a second copy leading out the back of the first as a fallback point. For multiplayer you can make it double sided or even quad for 4 players. Fun, easy, flexible, low on resources and repair time.

If anybody needs more detailed help on building it, let me know.

 

[Fox]

Explanation could be that there is no path to him. When you stand on a big block of concrete they probably all go into destroy mode.

That could be it because like I said before, my base is on top of a solid steel foundation 2 blocks high, so even if they get to me, they still can't really get to me.

 

[Tohskrad]

I wonder how OP is doing the bloodmoons? Do you even fight the zombies or just hope the base does for you?

Yes, we actively fight the zombies, but are having a lot of issues with this latest patch with all the extra acid going around. (We are playing with slightly higher than normal difficulties)  We've actually started making some kill bases (processor/galaxy brain/underground)  and turned one of our existing ones into a compact version with 4 blades, 3 people shooting/repairing and autoturrets.   (Which hasn't worked yet, as usually a cop explodes and takes out all the blade traps at once. Not to mention all the acid being thrown around in 19.1).     

Our previous method was a tower that would require half to run through a building to try and jump onto our platform and half pummeling the legs/foundation.  This worked oddly well until the 19.1, then it just got destroyed by precision guided acid from birds/cops and they took it down (it was heavily fortified with 3+ layers of reinforced concrete ) in one night despite being fully repaired previously.

So far our method to survive has been to find a structure, stay there until it gets destroyed (usually before 1 AM) while defending and then just run away/fight on foot.  (Sometimes we can still get by with dashing/sprinting on a motorcycle on the last few hour(s), but that tends to spawn 50+ acid spitting birds and any lag results in death or a very difficult daytime cleanup.)   Either way, the horde has become one of the only challenging, yet most gimicky, parts of the game despite being in full steel/lvl6 weapons with regular/armor piercing ammo.   Thankfully one of our team is a fan of run/gun, but the others (including myself) are not.   

 

[Fox]

Yes, we actively fight the zombies, but are having a lot of issues with this latest patch with all the extra acid going around. (We are playing with slightly higher than normal difficulties)  We've actually started making some kill bases (processor/galaxy brain/underground)  and turned one of our existing ones into a compact version with 4 blades, 3 people shooting/repairing and autoturrets.   (Which hasn't worked yet, as usually a cop explodes and takes out all the blade traps at once. Not to mention all the acid being thrown around in 19.1).     

Our previous method was a tower that would require half to run through a building to try and jump onto our platform and half pummeling the legs/foundation.  This worked oddly well until the 19.1, then it just got destroyed by precision guided acid from birds/cops and they took it down (it was heavily fortified with 3+ layers of reinforced concrete ) in one night despite being fully repaired previously.

So far our method to survive has been to find a structure, stay there until it gets destroyed (usually before 1 AM) while defending and then just run away/fight on foot.  (Sometimes we can still get by with dashing/sprinting on a motorcycle on the last few hour(s), but that tends to spawn 50+ acid spitting birds and any lag results in death or a very difficult daytime cleanup.)   Either way, the horde has become one of the only challenging, yet most gimicky, parts of the game despite being in full steel/lvl6 weapons with regular/armor piercing ammo.   Thankfully one of our team is a fan of run/gun, but the others (including myself) are not.   

And that's why you don't rely on blade traps. Blade traps and turrets can be taken out so quickly that I feel like they should only ever be used as an extra, not a primary. Electric fencing is sort of an exception if you can protect them from ever being damaged at all, like boxing the poles in. Spikes are the best in my opinion because demolishers can only do so little damage to them leaving all the other rows of spikes in tact. They are admittedly a nuisance to maintain after blood moons, but at least they work reliably and get the job done every time. Barbed wires are also great for holding them back long enough to set them off... making them do their explosive area damage on the outer edge of the spikes, minimizing the damage.

Also, if you can hide yourself from being seen by the birds, you'll receive a lot less acid to the base as they'll only occasionally melee attack the base in random spots doing only nuisance damage (unless they can get inside, through the windows or whatever). The only acid you would then need to worry about are the cops.

I think the other problem you're having is that multiple players are in 1 spot. The way the blood moon works is that each player gets their own amount of zombies to go after them. So if you have 3 players defending 1 base, then you have 3x the zombies attacking the base at the same time. You have to factor things like that in when fortifying the base. So 3 players means 3x the defenses needed to hold them back.

 

[Vampirenostra]

And that's why you don't rely on blade traps. Blade traps and turrets can be taken out so quickly that I feel like they should only ever be used as an extra, not a primary. Electric fencing is sort of an exception if you can protect them from ever being damaged at all, like boxing the poles in. Spikes are the best in my opinion because demolishers can only do so little damage to them leaving all the other rows of spikes in tact. They are admittedly a nuisance to maintain after blood moons, but at least they work reliably and get the job done every time. Barbed wires are also great for holding them back long enough to set them off... making them do their explosive area damage on the outer edge of the spikes, minimizing the damage.

Also, if you can hide yourself from being seen by the birds, you'll receive a lot less acid to the base as they'll only occasionally melee attack the base in random spots doing only nuisance damage (unless they can get inside, through the windows or whatever). The only acid you would then need to worry about are the cops.

I think the other problem you're having is that multiple players are in 1 spot. The way the blood moon works is that each player gets their own amount of zombies to go after them. So if you have 3 players defending 1 base, then you have 3x the zombies attacking the base at the same time. You have to factor things like that in when fortifying the base. So 3 players means 3x the defenses needed to hold them back.

And x3 lags of course)))

 

[IDNeon]

It is NOT cheating.

If vehicles got flat tires and you had to change a tire while being chased THEN it wouldn't be *CHEESING*.

But for now, it's just a way of avoiding the game's content. Which is on you. No different than not making your horde base your industrial base for the same purpose of avoiding some aspects of the game such as base destruction.

 

[IDNeon]

I'm way too minimalist for these base designs, I have a "better" solution.

I currently have a pillbox design (see my other thread about Insane horde nights)...but the problem is the 360 degrees which is super inefficient and high maintenance.

I'm going to stretch one wall into many walls, so it'll be a wall, 3 blocks of empty space, and then a repeat of the defensive wall design....repeating itself in a kind of hallway.

The other 3 sides will be very thick with strongest blocks, to minimize any desire of zombies to go through that way.

This way if one wall fails, I can hop the other wall and fight from there with refreshed defenses.

Since my pillbox design hasn't failed yet (minus demos), the only real reason for repeating walls is to bail out when a demolisher destroys one section.

 

[Psychodabble]

I'm sure nobody tried my design, otherwise it'd be all the rage by now. Easy enough to build on day 1 or 2 and will last the whole game.

 

[IDNeon]

I'm sure nobody tried my design, otherwise it'd be all the rage by now. Easy enough to build on day 1 or 2 and will last the whole game.

Which one is that? (begins to look through thread for post)

My design is ready day one Insane, with horde every day.

I found it, it does look good, but how does the horde focus where you want them to be focused?

 

[Psychodabble]

Which one is that? (begins to look through thread for post)

My design is ready day one Insane, with horde every day.

I found it, it does look good, but how does the horde focus where you want them to be focused?

Simple pathfinding. It would be technically possible for them to jump into your room if they destroy the hatch, so they all focus on trying to do that. You just murder them before they succeed.

 

[IDNeon]

Simple pathfinding. It would be technically possible for them to jump into your room if they destroy the hatch, so they all focus on trying to do that. You just murder them before they succeed.

I want to do something similar but with a really lowtek solution. But using melee weapons means instead of a single room I'm going to try creating a hall with a few of my patented campfire-defensive walls.

I am curious about pathing in this scenario because that means the path needs to focus them to the defensive wall, and the other 3 walls needs to discourage zombies from attacking there. I don't know what to expect since I've always done a 360 pill-box style defensive wall instead of a hallway style.

 

[Danidas]

Zombies will always target the shortest valid path to you with the least block hp in the way. So if one way will require doing 15,000 block damage and another will only need 1000 the zombies will pick the lower number every time they can. The same occurs if your walls are all the same with no gaps but you forgot to repair one of the blocks so its hp is lower then the zombies will target that block as it is the path of least resistance for them. Lastly the zombies are aware of support loads and are able to zero in on support pillars or structures to bring you down to them if they cannot find a valid path to you.