PC Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?

[Krougal]

Then the cafeteria with the zombie-filled toilets in front. Killed 3 in the left toilet, then tried to kill the feral biker. Unlike most of the irradiated before he actually did not get killed in one shot and I needed to switch to vulture. This woke up others so I ran. After getting some distance I stealthed, ran a few meters further and threw small stones into far edges. Killed 4 easily.

The right side toilet still had 3 zombies I killed silently. This was in daytime btw. Then up the ramp, killed another 9 plus 3 vultures. The only one who needed a finisher shot from the desert vuiture was the biker, again. 

It's those armored heads. That's why I keep a silencer on my DV FTW!

Pistol - Silencer, 2x, Flashlight, Mag ext - General purpose assassinations

44 - Rad, Cripple, Reflex, Laser - Tougher stuff and 5% trading

DV - Silencer, 2x, Cripple, Mag ext - Assassinating tougher stuff

Xbow - 4x, Rad, Cripple, Poly - Sniping

SMG - Drum mag, Reflex, Fore grip, Muzzle break - @%$# has hit the fan, spec'd for hipshooting.

Machete - Fortifying grip, weighted head, rad remover, burning shaft - For when you feel like getting up close and personal

 

[Tehnomaag]

I would say the majority of zombies that an average player encounters in a game with default settings are sleepers.... so it would be more accurate, IMO, to say that zombies encountered in the wild are not congruent with the rest of the game.

Following that argument to its logical end. MAJORITY of sleepers (2/3, roughly) are pretty passive and you have to basically step on their fingers to get them to wake up. It is that about 1/3 of the sleeper volumes react to a player presence in given volume and not something that player does "wrong". 

If one includes the wilderness zombies as well (a minority, of total zombie population as you pointed out) I'd say that roughly 20 to 25% of all the zombies a player encounters are these auto agro ones.  

 

[meganoth]

It's those armored heads. That's why I keep a silencer on my DV FTW!

Pistol - Silencer, 2x, Flashlight, Mag ext - General purpose assassinations

44 - Rad, Cripple, Reflex, Laser - Tougher stuff and 5% trading

DV - Silencer, 2x, Cripple, Mag ext - Assassinating tougher stuff

Xbow - 4x, Rad, Cripple, Poly - Sniping

SMG - Drum mag, Reflex, Fore grip, Muzzle break - @%$# has hit the fan, spec'd for hipshooting.

Machete - Fortifying grip, weighted head, rad remover, burning shaft - For when you feel like getting up close and personal

My setup was pretty similar, I did not take a 44 with me and the DV had rad remover instead of mag extender. But I had Silencer in my DV and it still was noticable harder to keep the zombies asleep with the DV. If I remember correctly one of the two times I woke up zombies "guiltlessly" I was using the DV instead of the crossbow for the initial shot.

Two further improvements would still be possible by the way: I did take a stack covert cat candy with me but consistently forgot to take one at choke points, the cafeteria toilet would have been ideal for this. Not sure whether the 50% more damage would have been enough though. Also I did not wear the stealth boots. At level 100 that should be standard for a stealth player.

 

[Jenshae]

And it is.... I quite often stealth through a POI.   And when that fails, I switch to melee.   If there are too many to melee, I pull out my firearm.   If there are still too many (or I haven't found a firearm yet) I run like hell.   So I've engaged in up to 4 different play styles in the same POI.

I am not arguing against there being triggers.
I am arguing against there being triggers that you can't spot, learn from and disarm; triggers that have no cause and effect.

It is the repetition and annoyance that comes with this cheesy mechanic that I despise so much.  "Oh yay. Here is that trigger room again. Time to knock holes in the wall to pop the zombies' heads."
There is a large Shamway, for example, I now always jump on the roof, smack it open then pop their heads from up there instead of going into the room.

If you could disarm the room, you then have more options.
- Disarm it slowly.
- Rush in guns blazing and clear it quickly.

By the time you have remembered where the trigger rooms are, they are not presenting any challenge, they are just vexing.

 

[Kalen]

I am not arguing against there being triggers.
I am arguing against there being triggers that you can't spot, learn from and disarm; triggers that have no cause and effect.

It is the repetition and annoyance that comes with this cheesy mechanic that I despise so much.  "Oh yay. Here is that trigger room again. Time to knock holes in the wall to pop the zombies' heads."
There is a large Shamway, for example, I now always jump on the roof, smack it open then pop their heads from up there instead of going into the room.

If you could disarm the room, you then have more options.
- Disarm it slowly.
- Rush in guns blazing and clear it quickly.

By the time you have remembered where the trigger rooms are, they are not presenting any challenge, they are just vexing.

The quote you were responding to was in response to a comment about there not being multiple ways to get through a POI.

Honestly, I think we've beat this dead horse enough.

 

[Roland]

I am not arguing against there being triggers.
I am arguing against there being triggers that you can't spot, learn from and disarm; triggers that have no cause and effect.

It is the repetition and annoyance that comes with this cheesy mechanic that I despise so much.  "Oh yay. Here is that trigger room again. Time to knock holes in the wall to pop the zombies' heads."
There is a large Shamway, for example, I now always jump on the roof, smack it open then pop their heads from up there instead of going into the room.

If you could disarm the room, you then have more options.
- Disarm it slowly.
- Rush in guns blazing and clear it quickly.

With all due respect, you need to read through the thread as all of this has been thoroughly discussed.

1) TFP currently has no plan to create triggers that can be disarmed. The rooms auto aggro because they are intended to do so. So making visual triggers would be even more aggravating because they would just be static art that couldn't be interacted with. At this late stage of development I don't see them going into these changes. The POI's are pretty much done. The only possible alteration that I have heard gaining any traction among the development team is the possibility of hiding a key somewhere in the POI that you will need to open the final loot room treasure box.

2) Your assertion that knocking holes in walls to pop zombies' heads is the ONLY ("repetitive and annoyance") stealthy tactic that can be used has been completely dismantled in this thread through actual testing. You can also retreat, hide, and then re-emerge to kill the zombies with all stealth bonuses in force. MAYBE.... using a combination of tactics such as wall breaking, guns blazing, hide and then strike, parkour to high ground, and chokepoint traps could help break up your monotany.

By the time you have remembered where the trigger rooms are, they are not presenting any challenge, they are just vexing.

Since the revelation that came out of this thread that you can backtrack, hide, and then sneak back to stealth kill the now awake but meandering zombies I have been doing this more and more with ALL zombies. It has actually been fun to wake up a sleeper, ditch him, and then put an arrow in his head from stealth while he is moving around. It can be challenging at times if that is what you are looking for. I suggest you try it. It has made this thread worthwhile.

Honestly, I think we've beat this dead horse enough.

hmmmm....no.....It's definitely still gasping.

 

[th3s0n1c]

So making visual triggers would be even more aggravating because they would just be static art that couldn't be interacted with

There's a sort of visual "trigger" (or rather, a clue) that cant be interacted with.. dog houses/carriers.. whenever there's one of those around, very likely there's a dog in the poi. Same for the cabinet doors zombies break through.

So I guess having a visual clue isnt that far from the way it is.

 

[meganoth]

There's a sort of visual "trigger" (or rather, a clue) that cant be interacted with.. dog houses/carriers.. whenever there's one of those around, very likely there's a dog in the poi. Same for the cabinet doors zombies break through.

So I guess having a visual clue isnt that far from the way it is.

Excellent point. Now making a similar visual cue for the auto-trigger rooms is the hard part. Anyone with a good idea?

I got two:

* A block that looks like an alarm system somewhere inside the room that has enough hitpoints so no normal player can destroy it in one hit. The disadvantage is that even this simple idea needs devs time. If you hit the box, the auto-trigger area has to trigger as well. If not, players will except that they can destroy the box and then enter the area without trigggering the zombies.

* If that alarm system block looks already well destroyed, you could argue that the rest of the alarm system must be hidden somewhere and still working. Now I would bet that most players won't make that connection until they have seen it dozens of times. For me an audio cue, i.e. an alarm sound going off the moment you enter the auto-trigger zone, would be preferable because everyone will get the right idea the first time.

 

[Roland]

For me an audio cue, i.e. an alarm sound going off the moment you enter the auto-trigger zone, would be preferable because everyone will get the right idea the first time.

This would be fine but there still can't be visual speakers even though they exist because then players will cut through walls to destroy the speakers and be angry when they enter the room and the alarm still goes off and the room still auto-aggros.

 

[Danidas]

I do agree that a simple audio queue would be best here but would have to something outside the player control. For example a zombie sound or other natural sound like thunder which has no possible link to a block or item.

If we look at Bloodmoons they have a lot of visual and audio queues that something bad is about to happen. So it would make sense that auto aggro volumes would have a much more scaled down warning.

 

[meganoth]

This would be fine but there still can't be visual speakers even though they exist because then players will cut through walls to destroy the speakers and be angry when they enter the room and the alarm still goes off and the room still auto-aggros.

Exactly. I probably should have said "**pure** audio cue" to avoid misunderstandings.

The player might ask "What made that alarm go off?" like he asks "What makes the zombies bleed?" or "How can the traders survive blood moon?" and it will be one of the mysteries he'll never solve.

I do agree that a simple audio queue would be best here but would have to something outside the player control. For example a zombie sound or other natural sound like thunder which has no possible link to a block or item.

If we look at Bloodmoons they have a lot of visual and audio queues that something bad is about to happen. So it would make sense that auto aggro volumes would have a much more scaled down warning.

Sorry, but the audio cue is not for warning the player (this is a trap, POI designers surely celebrate whenever another 1000 players fell victim to their traps ). The audio cue is to EXPLAIN the trap to the player, it is for immersion.

If you hear an alarm and find no alarm klaxon, what would you think? Well, either you haven't found it or it was destroyed by a zombie or the speaker was embedded somewhere, for example in a wall or it was part of that PC in the other room. Did you look inside the PC case? Nope, because you can't.

 

[Danidas]

Sorry, but the audio cue is not for warning the player (this is a trap, POI designers surely celebrate whenever another 1000 players fell victim to their traps ). The audio cue is to EXPLAIN the trap to the player, it is for immersion.

If you hear an alarm and find no alarm klaxon, what would you think? Well, either you haven't found it or it was destroyed by a zombie or the speaker was embedded somewhere, for example in a wall or it was part of that PC in the other room. Did you look inside the PC case? Nope, because you can't.

Sorry should of been more clear, as what I was going for is a sound after the trap has been sprung to explain the trap. But for it to be a natural sound from a zombie, animal, or natural effect that is not tangible. Which will naturally work best if it uses a random sound every time or at least most of the time.

Basically I don't like the idea of using a sound that can be even remotely tied to a block.

 

[th3s0n1c]

Excellent point. Now making a similar visual cue for the auto-trigger rooms is the hard part. Anyone with a good idea?

I got two:

* A block that looks like an alarm system somewhere inside the room that has enough hitpoints so no normal player can destroy it in one hit. The disadvantage is that even this simple idea needs devs time. If you hit the box, the auto-trigger area has to trigger as well. If not, players will except that they can destroy the box and then enter the area without trigggering the zombies.

* If that alarm system block looks already well destroyed, you could argue that the rest of the alarm system must be hidden somewhere and still working. Now I would bet that most players won't make that connection until they have seen it dozens of times. For me an audio cue, i.e. an alarm sound going off the moment you enter the auto-trigger zone, would be preferable because everyone will get the right idea the first time.

I like the alarm system idea.

From the top of my head, I've thought of a couple, might be able to come up with new ideas later, but for now they are:

- Pressure plates. One of the most underused systems in the game (I believe.. as I never see people using them - probably due to the fact they used to be bugged and cause lag) could be reversed to actually being used: Let's say that now-late-survivors tried setting up defense mechanisms to warn them about zombies coming in.. well, they perished and now they are zombies trapped inside their own safehouse and we activate their traps. (Could also be trip wires, but I figured pressure plates could use some love and would be more interesting if you could make them blend in with the floor - have them painted with the same color and blend in with plate blocks for height accuracy)

- Barricades. This would sort of ruin the idea of intended unobstructed path, but it could be used in a way that fits a concept: just like the ide above, former survivors barricated themselves in an area, they still perished and now are the zombies in there. You have to break through their barricades in order to advance, but in doing so, you wake them up. We already have barricades in the game, but they serve no purpose other than to block an unintended path, so I figured we could step up their game and bring in a little more meaning to them.

- Defect Blocks. You know those rotten blocks you step on and they give in into the ground? (not the ones that drop you into the basement or anything like that.. those that are just 1 block deep - usually found on small houses) What if the sound of those blocks breaking would wake up the zombies? 

Another related idea would be having defected blocks fall whenever you walk into an area (either by setting up a trap or just the vibration of your footsteps on old wooden floors/walls) and that would trigger the zombies. After all, a falling block makes quite some noise.. you destroy POIs/drop mine and you'll see it even calling screamers because of heat/noise.

- Hubcap mines. With either some sort of alarm triggering or acting like a flashbang. Nothing that would actually harm you, but would draw attention. Just thought they only seem fit on military camps and are poorly used on any other POIs designs.

- Warning sign: the good old visual clue left by a survivor that had been there a long time ago and barely escaped alive: "DEAD INSIDE" written off in blood on a wall.  Well.. at least you were warned, right? (easy to make: just a texture paint, could even be used for memes)

And last, but not least, following up on this idea:

I do agree that a simple audio queue would be best here but would have to something outside the player control. For example a zombie sound

- A POI Screamer/Siren/Witch (L4D2): The main concept would be having a zombie in an area that you NEED to go through (forcing confrontation, as intended by the devs when making aggro rooms). She's not sleeping, but she's just standing there. If you bother her or she sees you, she screams, waking up all zombies in the immediate area. This area would be all steel blocks with room for hidden sleepers (avoiding cheesing).

If you really wanna appeal to stealthers, have her hidden or surrounded by blocks. I dont know if there's a way to code that but literally the only way to kill her and prevent her scream would be:

-> To 1-shot her it would require a shot in the head with damage (output) requirement equivalent to having hidden strike 5 + steel arrows + at least an iron xbow/wooden bow Q5 or 6  worth of damage.

->There's only one very specific angle for you to be able to hit her in the head.

Once she's triggered, she loses this coding, screams and is just like any other zombie - statswise.

 I've been nurturing this idea for a while and I know it would require designing a new zombie, but more variety = more GG, right?

 

[Kalen]

I like the alarm system idea.

From the top of my head, I've thought of a couple, might be able to come up with new ideas later, but for now they are:

Good ideas.... But:

Either these traps are avoidable (by breaking or avoiding the blocks or killing the POI screamer) which TFP do not, apparently, want.

Or they're unavoidable, which, as @Roland stated, would be super frustrating for people to actually see the trap but still be unable to avoid.

To me, the best option would be some sort of "off camera" audio signal.   Not the most immersive idea, but at least it would clue the player in to the fact that something happened.

 

[hiemfire]

If you really wanna appeal to stealthers, have her hidden or surrounded by blocks.

Let me see if I have your suggestion correct. New special mob who is always alert that triggers off of someone entering her/his los, is hidden so the only way to see them is by entering their view (including encasing the zombie in blocks to prevent them from being sniped from outside their view), has damage mitigation greater than an A18 zombie bear till triggered, convert blocks of all aggressive volumes to steel...

I think you are confusing "appeal to" with "@%$# over"... Nothing you suggested is appealing at all from a stealth perspective, though I can see the appeal to a run n' gunner who thinks stealth  = cheating.

 

[Boidster]

Excellent point. Now making a similar visual cue for the auto-trigger rooms is the hard part. Anyone with a good idea?

I mentioned a couple of ideas before, more along the lines of 'atmosphere' clues, not obvious A TRAP IS COMING UP clues.

• Bloody hand prints on the walls/floors in areas near an aggro volume
  
• Additional gore blocks at/just inside the threshold of the volume
  

The idea being, if you pay close attention (as any stealthing player ought to be) you can know ahead of time when extra danger is ahead. If you don't pay attention, well, surprise! Like the safe house symbol in The Division, only the opposite of safe.

 

[th3s0n1c]

Let me see if I have your suggestion correct. New special mob who is always alert that triggers off of someone entering her/his los, is hidden so the only way to see them is by entering their view (including encasing the zombie in blocks to prevent them from being sniped from outside their view), has damage mitigation greater than an A18 zombie bear till triggered, convert blocks of all aggressive volumes to steel...

I think you are confusing "appeal to" with "@%$# over"... Nothing you suggested is appealing at all from a stealth perspective, though I can see the appeal to a run n' gunner who thinks stealth  = cheating.

You got my suggestion wrong, then. If you kept on reading it, you would understand its a whole concept. I suggested to hide her, but not entirely (like table blocks or arrow slits are blocks, but they allow projects go through specific areas). Giving stealthers one chance (and one chance only) of killing her under very specific requirements (to allow for balance).

Either these traps are avoidable (by breaking or avoiding the blocks or killing the POI screamer) which TFP do not, apparently, want.

Or they're unavoidable, which, as @Roland stated, would be super frustrating for people to actually see the trap but still be unable to avoid.

At this point, we were just accepting these things as they work, The ideas were to "justify" aggro rooms happening. Or only giving a visual clue to them. It wasnt much of a fixing issue - apart from the screamer one. That was actually intended to try and bridge both worlds: runs n gunners still get their aggro rooms as intended, stealthers can try to keep stealthy but have a very high chance of failing.

 

[Kalen]

At this point, we were just accepting these things as they work, The ideas were to "justify" aggro rooms happening. Or only giving a visual clue to them. It wasnt much of a fixing issue - apart from the screamer one. That was actually intended to try and bridge both worlds: runs n gunners still get their aggro rooms as intended, stealthers can try to keep stealthy but have a very high chance of failing.

Thats sort of the point.   If you go to TFP with a suggestion that changes the way auto aggro rooms work, you're not likely to get any traction.   If you go to them with a suggestion to just add some sort of indicator that you set off an auto aggro room, I could see them agreeing to that.

 

[th3s0n1c]

If you go to TFP with a suggestion that changes the way auto aggro rooms work, you're not likely to get any traction.   If you go to them with a suggestion to just add some sort of indicator that you set off an auto aggro room, I could see them agreeing to that.

My suggestions covered both of those bases.

 

[Kalen]

My suggestions covered both of those bases.

Oh ok, I guess I misunderstood.... other than the warning sign idea, it looked like all your ideas introduced a way to either avoid the auto-aggro or to frustrate players because they could see the trap before hand but still be unable to avoid it.