PC Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?

[Ezed]

Yes, don't perk into it. That is the only option at the moment and that is what I think is sad about this game... There is only run and gun. I have no issues with my difficulty. I dislike being pigeonholed into run and gun cheesing... It would be much more interesting to rely on tactics and forethought with POIs instead of running into ambushes constantly...

Well, killing every zombie with a headshot from a silenced Vulture while they're just standing there not moving is kind of cheese too.  I think the Devs want you to have to fight your way through some of the POI areas.

You can still stealth a fair bit of POI's right?  At least, I know people can without a single point in Hidden Strike or From the Shadows.  So employ your stealth tactics when you can, but be ready for a fight when that doesn't work.  Variety is the spice of life and gaming.  

You say forethought...but you're (presumably) entering a building you've never entered before...should there be a little box out front with the buildings blueprints available, with the zombies positions marked?  You should be ready for anything....even an ambush...

 

[asmosnuts]

      Stealth is fine, it would be just as boring being able to stealth everything anyway. Most places are easily cleared with only odd rooms giving any real problems. Rubbish in doorways can be axed and one of the books/perks lets you walk over without making noise.

      Trying to rush through pois seems to be the main culprit, yeah there are rooms that auto activate but not overwhelmingly so.Collapsing floors can be dealt with by using frames/plates. Biggest annoyance is damn vultures forever causing bleeds and broken limbs now that mbike no longer outruns them.

 

[Kalen]

I play on Insane, Always Nightmare, Dead is dead, blood moon 64. I can survive until tier 5 missions, and I can continue to survive if I cheese them all by breaking a wall and throwing grenades. However, why do the developers think this is a fun way to play? 

You play with very difficult settings.

You complain the only way to survive is cheesing 

You infer from this that the developers intend that you play this way?

I think I see your problem....

 

[Danidas]

Stealth is fine currently, sure you cannot use it everywhere but that is not the point of it in this game. Instead it is simply a tool that can be used to significantly reduce your ammo usage and damage received. Which has the trade off of taking a bit longer and putting you at risk of ambushes. However when used correctly to supplement your play style instead of dominating it, stealth can have a massive impact on your sustainability and survivability.

 

[Roland]

You can still stealth a fair bit of POI's right? 

I would say a significant amount. Boidster posted the volume types for Red Mesa, I believe:

<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2,0,0,2,0,0,0,2,2,0,0,0" />

75% of that POI can be stealthed and only 25% cannot. Now, I could see an argument that a better ratio would result in a 90% 10% split but even at the current ratio I think Stealth can be beneficial and helpful. Not knowing which volumes are 2s and which are 0s requires you to be tense and ready to switch from stealth to something else but I think that enhances the experience. Exploring unknown POIs is always more enjoyable for that reason than ones I am familiar with.

Making stealth 100% possible is a mistake and here is why:

You are stealthing sleeping enemies so it is almost guaranteed success every single time. You don't have sentries who may discover you and raise an alarm. You don't have moving searchlights or alarm tripping traps (other than trash piles) to remove. The only way to get caught is to miss a hidden sleeper (which ironically is another complaint often raised by stealth players that zombies are hidden in unlikely places). I mean, I can use a machine gun to shoot into a volume I haven't crossed into yet and nothing wakes up. That is how easy "stealth" is in this game and yet there are people who want that everywhere all the time?

So if all rooms could be overcome with 100% stealth with no hidden sleepers...would we even have a game involving threat and risk?

I play on Insane, Always Nightmare, Dead is dead, blood moon 64. I can survive until tier 5 missions, and I can continue to survive if I cheese them all by breaking a wall and throwing grenades. However, why do the developers think this is a fun way to play? Do they lack the comprehension to provide actually fun quests that take tactics and strategy and not just cheese? Light armor is worthless since you take so much damage and stealth doesn't do a damn thing. You are completely pigeonholed in this game and it is sad.

You are more skilled than me. How do you know there isn't someone who is more skilled than you? You want things changed to make playing the game at your settings possible without cheesing-- but how do you know that there isn't someone out there who can handle these situations that you can't without cheesing? Your request would ruin the difficulty level they like. When a setting turns out to be too difficult for you, then the appropriate step is to turn down the difficulty to the point that you feel challenged. Too often, people come here and complain about being forced to cheese because the game is "impossible" to play without cheesing. We get that constantly about base design after changes to zombie behavior-- until we don't any more because people have adapted and learned that it isn't actually impossible. Of course some people just find a new cheese tactic because they need that crutch for their skill level at the difficulty they have chosen. 99% of the cases where people feel that cheesing is absolutely necessary can be fixed by reducing the difficulty to a manageable level for that person.

Your cheese tactics are your crutch for the difficulty level you've chosen. Either make your peace with the crutch you use and keep your difficulty level or reduce your difficulty level to the point you no longer need your crutch. But don't seek to ruin the difficulty level for those who play it just fine without the need for your particular crutch to make it possible for you.

 

[Kalen]

I would say a significant amount. Boidster posted the volume types for Red Mesa, I believe:

Only being able to "like" this post once is not enough.... very well said.

 

[hiemfire]

At least, I know people can without a single point in Hidden Strike or From the Shadows.

I've had better success stealthing POIs with a straight Fort build (5 fort, none in the weapons, 2-3 in all of the others in fort, 1 point in Animal Tracker) than with an actual stealth build. Worse out in the open world, but that was expected. Being able to stealth clear places, usually waking up 1 at a time at most when the sneak shot doesn't kill, with nothing invested into it wasn't. I run Prim Bow and Stone Sledge for indoors. Both are silent and the sledge kills using the normal attack in 1-3 swings (even on ferals). Without FTS you move "slower" (cover less distance with each press of the movement keys) which lends to being more alert, aids in distance control (which is very important to not being proximity sensed), increases the time between the "third step" observability spikes, and doesn't have the letdown of perked FTS when it doesn't work. Auto-Aggros are still a thing, but rng has been good to me this time so I have a pistol to help with those (might be confirmation bias, but damn it seems the game adds a negative modifier to the loot rolls for something you're specced for to appear. I've found three this run. 2 at the trader which I couldn't afford and the one I looted and am using).

 

[Lesdeth]

With all of the responses to my post, I see certain problems. I said tier 4 to 5 missions, which many of them auto aggro most rooms. I have tried stealthing through and it happens a lot. I don't really care about the tier 3 and lower, since you reach tier 4 by like day 15... People talking about using stone tools? You can easily, very easily every game in fact, get iron on day 2 or 3... I have watched many vods and casts of playing with my settings since I was curious how others do it, and it's all cheese, because the game can only be played that way with these settings. So if I want to play on the hardest settings, I can't use tactics and instead HAVE to run and gun just to be able to survive past day 15? Does it take some people a literal year to advance in this game or something? You say it would be boring if you could stealth Every POI, which wasn't my argument. However, what the hell is wrong with having multiple ways to clear a building? I should be pigeonholed for no reason?

Should I lower my settings so I can use the terrible light armor and horrible damage of bows with no survivability? That seems quite absurd..

 

[Roland]

I said tier 4 to 5 missions, which many of them auto aggro most rooms.

I'm pretty sure that Red Mesa is Tier 4

I know for a fact that there are zero POI's (other than possibly one of the new firestations) where most of the rooms are set up to auto aggro. As I mentioned to someone else, if they are aggroing then you are failing to stealth in at least some of those cases but that it is possible to do so. The code is proof that most sleeper volumes are active but not auto aggro. That is just a fact looking at the code.

So if I want to play on the hardest settings, I can't use tactics and instead HAVE to run and gun just to be able to survive past day 15?

YOU do. Doesn't mean others can't use tactics. We are all limited by the level of our skills. If you turned down the difficulty to better match your skill level you could use tactics. Someone else would be able to use tactics at your difficulty level because they have the skills to do so. It's a tough bit of self-awareness and acceptance especially if gamer ego gets in the way.

However, what the hell is wrong with having multiple ways to clear a building?

Nothing...which is why it can't all be done with stealth. Many areas can be but others will require other methods and collectively that makes "multiple ways". You are the one who is proclaiming that the only way it can be done is run and gun. But you also sound like a speed player. When you play for top efficiency and speed you lock yourself into single pathways. With ambush points in a building you would have to go very slow and always be tense ready to switch tactics. Obviously slow is not your thing so because you like fast, you feel you must run and gun and it is your only option.

 

[meganoth]

With all of the responses to my post, I see certain problems. I said tier 4 to 5 missions, which many of them auto aggro most rooms.

There are very few rooms that auto-aggro in t4 and t5 POIs.

I have tried stealthing through and it happens a lot. I don't really care about the tier 3 and lower, since you reach tier 4 by like day 15... People talking about using stone tools? You can easily, very easily every game in fact, get iron on day 2 or 3... I have watched many vods and casts of playing with my settings since I was curious how others do it, and it's all cheese, because the game can only be played that way with these settings. So if I want to play on the hardest settings, I can't use tactics and instead HAVE to run and gun just to be able to survive past day 15? Does it take some people a literal year to advance in this game or something? You say it would be boring if you could stealth Every POI, which wasn't my argument. However, what the hell is wrong with having multiple ways to clear a building? I should be pigeonholed for no reason?

Should I lower my settings so I can use the terrible light armor and horrible damage of bows with no survivability? That seems quite absurd..

That you are very unstealthy in heavy armor is a different matter and surely won't change in the game even if TFP decided that there is some balance problem here. There have to be disadvantages to heavy armor and one is noise. Light armor is in the agility tree for a reason.

I don't play on insane, so I don't really know, but have you tried a pistol/desert vulture with silencer (and light armor naturally) ? Maybe not as the opening shot but as finisher?

 

[Danidas]

The main misconception with this is that people do not know that there are three different types of sleeper volumes.

1) Asleep sleepers - They are the ones that will not wake up unless damaged or they detect noise over a set threshold. In other words they will ignore that your standing right in front of them until a strong enough noise event goes off with in range of them or they get damaged. They are also the vastly most common sleeper type in all tiers and what most players expect to find.

2) Awake sleepers - They are just the same as normal zombies and just as aware but set to not wander from their spawn point. Which allows them to be better able to detect the player as they have both sight and sound to work with. As a result it is a lot harder to stealth around them especially during the day and if one sees you than it is a good chance that his friends will be alerted too. They are also rather rare to run into as they are most often used in choke points or traps and commonly mistaken for the next group of sleepers.

3) Auto Aggro Sleeps - Theses will auto lock onto the player upon entering their spawn volume regardless of what the player does. However if the player is able to evade them and escape out of line of slight they can restealth to reset the zombies into plain Awake ones. Now as for how common they are the truth is that they are extremely rare and in almost all cases only exist at or very near to a POIs loot room.

The vast majority of times players think that they ran into hopeless to avoid sleepers they are in fact running into the second group. Which are possible to use stealth on but at a much higher difficulty then the first group that tend to lull people into a false sense of security. As for the third group unless your near the end of the poi where the devs want to create a boss fight or ambush your not going to be running into them. Grant it there are a few rare exceptions like the a fore mentioned Firestation that is bugged with all sleeper volumes being auto aggro.

 

[Boidster]

You can still stealth a fair bit of POI's right? 

I would say a significant amount. Boidster posted the volume types for Red Mesa, I believe:

I checked. There are 491 POIs not named "aaa_xxxxxx" (I think those are only for testing).

Of those 345 have sleeper volumes. Of those, there are 227 (66%) with no sleeper volumes set to "2" (attack). This includes skyscraper_01, skyscraper_02, skyscraper_03, and skyscraper_04, the very largest POIs in the game.

34% of the POIs have at least one volume set to auto-aggro.

 

[Kalen]

I checked. There are 491 POIs not named "aaa_xxxxxx" (I think those are only for testing).

Of those 491, there are 227 (46%) with no sleeper volumes set to "2" (attack). This includes skyscraper_01, skyscraper_02, skyscraper_03, and skyscraper_04, the very largest POIs in the game.

Nice data..... now put together a list of all volumes by type, so we can see what percentage are set to 2 

 

[Boidster]

Edit to add:

345 POIs with sleeper volumes checked.


Total Sleeper Volumes


2261


Passive ("0")


1752 (77.5%)


Active ("1")


36 (1.6%)


Aggressive ("2")


473 (20.9%)

 

[hiemfire]

View attachment 15413

Edit to add:

345 POIs with sleeper volumes checked.


Total Sleeper Volumes


2261


Passive ("0")


1752 (77.5%)


Active ("1")


36 (1.6%)


Aggressive ("2")


473 (20.9%)

Kinda blows a hole in the theory that people are mistaking active volumes for auto-aggro (aggressive) volumes. Less than 1/50th of the volumes in those checked are Active volumes (some or all occupants are alert but not triggered to attack by entry into the volume) vs just over 1/5th are Aggressive (targeted aggro upon entry). 1 in 5 volumes, rounded down, shut off the stealth mechanic...

 

[Lesdeth]

There are very few rooms that auto-aggro in t4 and t5 POIs.

That you are very unstealthy in heavy armor is a different matter and surely won't change in the game even if TFP decided that there is some balance problem here. There have to be disadvantages to heavy armor and one is noise. Light armor is in the agility tree for a reason.

I don't play on insane, so I don't really know, but have you tried a pistol/desert vulture with silencer (and light armor naturally) ? Maybe not as the opening shot but as finisher?

I have gone full stealth set (light armor, not ghille) with silenced pistols, crossbows and regular bows. Shamway and Shotgun are what I run most of the time. In almost every room when you shoot one, they all aggro no matter which weapon you use. The only counter to this is to use heavy armor and run and gun, or block a doorway with cobblestone and chuck grenades. A desert vulture is not even close to enough to deal with any rooms post day 50 in tier 4-5... I know you guys play on scrub settings, but damn...

I am talking about the hardest difficult and how unbalanced and useless stealth is. I would love to see you run with only a crossbow and vulture and not cheese the hell out of tier 5 missions. Hell run high school with only stealth and light armor and watch you get ripped apart in 2 seconds, which is tier 4...

Yes, I can lower my settings to under my skill level and just use a level 1 club and clear everything. That is completely idiotic. Pretty much the only way stealth can work is with easy mode settings.

 

[Kalen]

View attachment 15413

Edit to add:

345 POIs with sleeper volumes checked.


Total Sleeper Volumes


2261


Passive ("0")


1752 (77.5%)


Active ("1")


36 (1.6%)


Aggressive ("2")


473 (20.9%)

So about 80% of all POIs in the game are stealth-able.   Seems about right.

And, nice work on the data!

 

[hiemfire]

So about 80% of all POIs in the game are stealth-able.   Seems about right.

And, nice work on the data!

That's the percentage of volumes overall across all POIs, not percentage of POIs.

 

[Kalen]

Yes, I can lower my settings to under my skill level and just use a level 1 club and clear everything. That is completely idiotic. Pretty much the only way stealth can work is with easy mode settings.

Wait.... you're saying that in harder difficulty, it's harder to kill mobs without them waking up?   You can't kill them without risk?   It's almost like the harder difficulties intentionally make the game harder!

That's the percentage of volumes overall across all POIs, not percentage of POIs.

I know.... I just estimated that those numbers are pretty fairly distributed across POIs.  You're right though, they may not be.

Also, when I said 80% of POIs, I didn't mean that 80% had no auto agro.  We already know from Boidster's previous data that about 50% don't.  I meant that 80% within the POIs are stealth-able.  Sorry for the lack of clarity.

 

[Lesdeth]

Wait.... you're saying that in harder difficulty, it's harder to kill mobs without them waking up?   You can't kill them without risk?   It's almost like the harder difficulties intentionally make the game harder!

I know.... I just estimated that those numbers are pretty fairly distributed across POIs.  You're right though, they may not be.

So Stealth should be completely worthless because of higher difficult? What are you smoking dude? It seems you aren't really understanding what you are saying. It pigeonholes you into run and gun, herp derp. Thanks for agreeing with me.