PC Structural integrity....

[Boidster]

If you build a tower made of wood frames, 1 block high till the game wont let you- itll stand just fine.
If you change to a steel block anywhere on the wood frame tower, it breaks exactly at the steel block after a few blocks.
Even frames have mass and max weight.
It doesnt add up.

A screenshot of your tower right before it fails would be super helpful. Weight limits only apply to what the side face of a block can support; there is no compression weight limit, as Kalen said. I still have 18.4 running and am quite willing to duplicate your example design in both versions to see if a new bug really has been introduced.

I get a lot of SI failures, but I can always explain it by me being stupid. I would love to determine that it's really a bug instead!

 

[Kalen]

The tower crumbles because the weight of the steel is 20ea but wood can only support a max of 60.

Ah, I think I found your problem.... wood only supports 40, not 60

 

[Pichii]

Ah, I think I found your problem.... wood only supports 40, not 60

View attachment 15045

Just curious but if you add a block into the center of the +, why does it still collapse then?
Stright across would be 60 but the structure itself is now braced?
Also, this still doesnt explain the entire wooden structure falling with a bracing setup ive used since A16 and know it worked on previous version of A19?

 

[Kalen]

Just curious but if you add a block into the center of the +, why does it still collapse then?
Stright across would be 60 but the structure itself is now braced?

Because it still exceeds the total.... each of the 4 sides can hold 40, so 160 total.   9 steel blocks have a mass of 180.

 

[Pichii]

Because it still exceeds the total.... each of the 4 sides can hold 40, so 160 total.   9 steel blocks have a mass of 180.

"each of the 4 sides can hold 40, so 160 total" This explains the steel for sure. Didnt know it was per side.

However, id still like to point out, it doesnt explain the collapse of the entire wood frame structure.
Like, i was framing a base and it collapsed with more than enough 'legs' to hold it up.

*Note the wood frame structure is unrelated to the above ASCI art graphic. :x

 

[Kalen]

However, id still like to point out, it doesnt explain the collapse of the entire wood frame structure.
Like, i was framing a base and it collapsed with more than enough 'legs' to hold it up.

I'm not sure.... I apologize, but I'm still a little fuzzy on what the details of the situation was.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

"each of the 4 sides can hold 40, so 160 total" This explains the steel for sure. Didnt know it was per side.

However, id still like to point out, it doesnt explain the collapse of the entire wood frame structure.
Like, i was framing a base and it collapsed with more than enough 'legs' to hold it up.

*Note the wood frame structure is unrelated to the above ASCI art graphic. :x

I've read your posts in this thread and your bug report and it's really not clear to me what you are trying to build and where the failure point is. A little more detail on what you are doing and the failure point would be helpful to everyone involved here. Specifically, what were the dimensions of the wood frame structure that failed?

Regardless, you can calculate SI by counting the number of block faces providing support and multiplying that by the max horizontal support. To determine how many blocks that will hold divide that number by the block weight. For example, one wood block face can support 8 wood blocks (40/5 = 8). If you try to add more, the entire horizontal row of wood blocks will sheer at the vertical column. If you were trying to build an elevated rectangular wood platform , 4 vertical columns can support a platform with a maximum size of 68 wood blocks [ ((4x2)x40)/5) + 4 ].  Each vertical column will have 2 faces providing support so there is a total of 8 faces providing support [4 x 2]. Eight faces can support 64 blocks [ (8 x 40)/5) ]. Including the 4 blocks from the vertical columns that leaves us with a maximum platform of 68 blocks. The max dimensions of this platform would be 8 x 8 or 6 x 11 and you would be pretty much unable to place anything on the blocks in the center of the platform. 

 

[Pichii]

Im just going to chalk this up as a failure of my understanding of SI.
Ill keep an eye on things now that I have a much more clear understanding of its mechanics and if I run into the issue again, ill get accurate dimensions for the build for reproduction.
My apologies- I wasnt sure exactly how to explain and it shows.

 

[Solomon]

Im just going to chalk this up as a failure of my understanding of SI.
Ill keep an eye on things now that I have a much more clear understanding of its mechanics and if I run into the issue again, ill get accurate dimensions for the build for reproduction.
My apologies- I wasnt sure exactly how to explain and it shows.

Just an idea but if you have a spare map, you could just pop into creative mode and replicate the structure. I myself have lost the top of the decorative radio tower at the red mesa poi when i painted the lowest part purple. It doesnt make sense but im gonna try to experiment with it.

 

[GlassDeviant]

A house I took over for a base two days ago, the south side of it completely collapsed. The only changes I had made were removing free-standing bookshelves and adding a few farm blocks on the flat roof. The basement walls were solid concrete and nothing happened to them, but the entire structure of the first and second floors, as well as the roof, completely collapsed. Fortunately I had a backup but I still lost several hours.

Upgrading a few strategic columns of blocks after restoring the backup worked, but I found it disturbing that a house with so few changes would collapse so easily. It's not as if I loaded the structure down with a huge concrete bunker or something.

 

[katarynna]

Farm plots on the roof would be the reason. As the crops grow, they have more weight. Once they reach full growth, they are often collapse part or all of the structure they are on. 

If you want a farm on your roof, you should add extra supports.

 

[meganoth]

A house I took over for a base two days ago, the south side of it completely collapsed. The only changes I had made were removing free-standing bookshelves and adding a few farm blocks on the flat roof. The basement walls were solid concrete and nothing happened to them, but the entire structure of the first and second floors, as well as the roof, completely collapsed. Fortunately I had a backup but I still lost several hours.

Upgrading a few strategic columns of blocks after restoring the backup worked, but I found it disturbing that a house with so few changes would collapse so easily. It's not as if I loaded the structure down with a huge concrete bunker or something.

Gameplay wise I find that ok, because taking over a poi saves you so much time and material, there should be serious downsides as well. It is seldom enough, I never though of checking for SI and the only collapses I had were from someone digging underneath the POI.

If you need a realistic justification for it, bombs were falling and tremors have damaged all buildings.

 

[FranticDan]

I've had a confusing SI issue yesterday. In one of the garages, the blue one with the interactable rolling door. I destroyed all supporting wood blocks for the steel poles and they remained floating. And yes there was nothing supporting them at all as I placed frames on all sides where they could get support from, removed them and they stayed floating

 

[Danidas]

A house I took over for a base two days ago, the south side of it completely collapsed. The only changes I had made were removing free-standing bookshelves and adding a few farm blocks on the flat roof. The basement walls were solid concrete and nothing happened to them, but the entire structure of the first and second floors, as well as the roof, completely collapsed. Fortunately I had a backup but I still lost several hours.

Upgrading a few strategic columns of blocks after restoring the backup worked, but I found it disturbing that a house with so few changes would collapse so easily. It's not as if I loaded the structure down with a huge concrete bunker or something.

The game doesn't care what blocks are below beyond if blocks exist or not all the way to bedrock or not as those blocks have infinite structural Integrity regardless of what they are made of. Instead all that really matters is how many blocks are attached with out said infinite structural Integrity and what is the limit for the nearest most directly attached block with it. In other words the only blocks in a base that really matter are the ones the floor/roof connect to on the walls and that the walls continue all the way to bedrock.

1] Do I have blocks all the way to bedrock (yes or no): (if yes stop but if no go to question 2)

2] Did any block next to me but not above or below answer yes to first question: (if Yes go to question 3 if no go to 4)

3] What is the max support value of the block from question 2: (set value to my own minus 1 and go to question 5)

4] What is the highest value that is not above or below me: (set value to my own minus 1 and go to question 5)

5] How many blocks are there above or below me: (minus number from my value and go to question 6)

6] Is my value at 0: (Trigger fall and minus 1 from all connected blocks)

That is the basic logic of it.

 

[doughphunghus]

I all these stability issues should be left alone ... and they add a new perk called "structural engineer" which checks your level before the patch to this applies.  If you need to read a book to make eggs and bacon, you need to read a book to build a house .  Then you can say, early game you *thought* a wood/stone/etc block could hold x other blocks, but you obviously were wrong about that because you didn't read the books.  The more you invest in the perk, the more the game engine actually uses the "real" values you see for the blocks....no?

Anyway: Yeah, I occasionally have stability issues as well, but I've gotten to where I build "way too dense/close/safe" vs "maxing out what the values say" and generally don't have issues anymore until I try to get creative and build some new structure out of frames to flesh something out.

 

[Pichii]

Anyway: Yeah, I occasionally have stability issues as well, but I've gotten to where I build "way too dense/close/safe" vs "maxing out what the values say" and generally don't have issues anymore until I try to get creative and build some new structure out of frames to flesh something out.

That was the issue that started this thread.
I built a base out of frames the way ive done since A16.
The frames got to about 10 high and then randomly collapsed as I was filling in frames for walls and upgrading them.
Adding supports at 1/2 the max (8 blocks is my max so I just put in supports every 4th block to workaround) 'fixes' the problem but I cannot accurately figure out what/where is going on to cause the collapse in the first place.

Also, if you had this issue, can you say whether or not you used the Nitrogen map maker mod or if you were vanilla?

 

[doughphunghus]

3 hours ago, Pichii said:.

Also, if you had this issue, can you say whether or not you used the Nitrogen map maker mod or if you were vanilla?

I can’t say .  I’m normally using vanilla map generation, but I have played a bit of maps pulled from other things (like Darkness Falls, etc) so I don’t know what they used.  I don’t personally use Nitrogen when I autogen my own maps, and it’s not something that happens enough I’d be able to recall what game version I was using or anything (and I always play with a lot of mods). 

 

[Danidas]

Most failed structural Integrity fails are due to the game having limits on block fall checks to avoid overwhelming your processor. As it prefers to do big falls when your not around or far enough away that it can use lower levels of details and generally be less taxing. Also the game has a few fun exploitable bugs with structural Integrity such as the well known phantom door bug. Where a ghost of destroyed doors can remain and provide structural Integrity to blocks above where it was until the block under the now gone door is removed. Which naturally can be abused for magic floating bases the defile logic.

 

[Solomon]

Just a basic question but wouldnt it be easier at this point to present a patch what practically shows you how much weight a certain item holds?

Like a color coding going from green, yellow, red and black to show if something is on the verge of collapse. This way players could actually test out which parts of the SI system are now faulty instead of randomly guessing why removing dirt from under a wall collapses the very top and only the top 1 line of roof of a building.

Even removing the weight system could significantly improve the entire SI system because then you could program something like "A pillar of concrete can hold 4 blocks of any material horizontally without falling over".

 

[Danidas]

Just a basic question but wouldnt it be easier at this point to present a patch what practically shows you how much weight a certain item holds?

Like a color coding going from green, yellow, red and black to show if something is on the verge of collapse. This way players could actually test out which parts of the SI system are now faulty instead of randomly guessing why removing dirt from under a wall collapses the very top and only the top 1 line of roof of a building.

Even removing the weight system could significantly improve the entire SI system because then you could program something like "A pillar of concrete can hold 4 blocks of any material horizontally without falling over".

Weight already doesn't matter and in fact never mattered at all as all it cares about is the total number of blocks being supported. Which each block material type has different limits on how many it can support. However said material support limits are meaningless if the block doesn't have a unbroken stack of blocks below it all the way to bedrock and also note that the materials used in said stack are meaningless. In other words when making a upside down L only the top vertical block matters for determining how long the horizontal line of blocks can be.