Are you sure THAT is the problem? I think if you can kill a sleeping zombie after breaking the freaking wall but not by going quietly through the door, that speaks volume on what is failing here... and it's not the player.
PC Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?
- Thread starter Tehnomaag
- Start date
Jenshae
New member
The big Shotgun Messiah, where you get to the roof with two towers and the arched roof frame you can drop down the middle.
There is a furnace with burning zombies hidden in the ceiling. I knock out some high blocks and create an angle to head shot them. I used to run in backwards, trigger them and run out and jump up onto the small furnace, which is easier but I hate this mechanic so much, that now I spend some extra time making sure to not hit the trigger and kill them. My small, "Screw you," that no one sees. *Shrug.*
I am at the point where I can rush through that room, turn around and blast them all away with the auto shotgun, blast the ones coming out of the medical room and then blast the ones coming through the door leading to the next room if I want. I still take the time to knock out blocks and head shot the burning zombies first.
As suggested earlier, there should be a way of stealthing it right. A zombie you have to shoot first, a trip wire you have to see and disarm, a control box with a motion sensor you need to shoot, etc. This way, there is a cause and effect. The player can still get the "fright" of doing it wrong the first few times and by the time they have memorised the room, they should have figured out how to disarm it. This would give the player ability to take control of the environment and not give them a powerless, *magic* mechanic, that has them irritated and cheating in retaliation to the game cheating.
I get the developers intentions and I don't disagree with them.
I disagree with the way they have implemented them.
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pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
It´s getting more riddiculous. Freaking high school has two triggers where no matter what they wake up., Looting the house next to it after that, i accidentally shot a shower curtain with the smg and the zombie that was standing right behind that curtain did not wake up. WTF? It´s so random and arbitrary. Frustrating af.
And you can stand right outside that volume where they get triggered and shoot a gun. The Z in the drop ceiling won´t wake up. Even if you shoot the block he is standing on.
This is a fkn joke.
@Roland Yes, you do trigger a room no matter where you enter. But it´s not always the whole room that is covered by the trigger area.
And you can stand right outside that volume where they get triggered and shoot a gun. The Z in the drop ceiling won´t wake up. Even if you shoot the block he is standing on.
This is a fkn joke.
@Roland Yes, you do trigger a room no matter where you enter. But it´s not always the whole room that is covered by the trigger area.
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It is your choice how you prepare. In your example the fitting preparation would be 4 wood for one ladder segment (or a wood frame) you put there so you can exit again.
To me such a drop into a confined space immediately rings all alarm bells. Even in a new POI and no matter which weaponry I have I always craft an exit before going down. Survival games tend to punish you for careless behaviour
Kalen
New member
Nope.... I love that room. 10 or so zombies that can only come at you one at a time? Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Jenshae
New member
Top of the Shamway factory, I knock a hole in the roof and snipe them from there, instead of walking into the collapsing floor and dropping onto the trash.
If that is your jam, you could still trip a wire or motion sensor with an alarm but at least you would have an option of how to handle the room.
Kalen
New member
Well, we're sort of going round in circles on this topic. The fact of the matter is that, at this point, TFP do not want you to have options. Now, people can discuss whether or not there should be options, but thats just one persons opinion against another persons opinion and if the history of this message board tells us anything, neither side is going to budge making the entire conversation an exercise in futility.
Personally, I don't mind the way it is.... stealth is useful in some places (most places) and not useful in others. I don't really worry about why that is the case and just adapt as needed.
Jenshae
New member
Kalen
New member
Scyris
New member
yeah there is one poi that is really bad for the zombies out of thin air thing. the path leading into the room is a tunnel and to actually get into to the room (its the loot room) you have to go down a 2-3 block drop, and second you do, about 10-12 zombies just all spawn instantly out of thin air and immedatly chase you. I've kinda solved this room by getting parkour so I can jump a block higher, or, putting a wood frame down before I go in so I can quickly hop back out and remove the frame. Its not just this though that the devs screw stealth builds with. Have you every really looked at where they position sleepers? They are usually always in a spot you cannot get a clear shot at them from, always behind furnature or pallets etc. Then there is the trash piles always in front and behind doors in the intended path.
Thats not allowed in 7dtd by the devs though as they consisitantly take away options from the player, it started with the digging zombies, then the vultures that can keep up with vehicles especially on horde night, now we have swimming zombies that can swim 2x as fast as the player can. I'd be less annoyed with it if they put a options in the new/continue game to disable digging/swimming/vultures, or if the digging was done properly. For example the only things that should be able to dig should be wolfs, zombie dogs and bears. On horde night for example, if you get on a vehicle, vultures get a speed boost, and also the game will deliberatly start spawning a ton of vultures till you get out of the vehicle. DO the same for digging zombies, and make them be dogs/wolfs/bears only. If you go underground on horde night, more of them spawn to dig to you, on non-horde nights those 3 types can still dig, but normal zombies cannot, so it makes underground bases viable again. This way digging enemeis would make sense as dogs and bears are known to dig.
The devs of 7dtd have been removing choice away from the player starting with a17, with the removable of learn by doing, and they other ways they keep removing tools the player has to play how they want.
P.s. Devs please fix sound aggro, a zombie should not hear me thru 10-15 blocks of material, I mean if I am firing a gun or using a auger/chain saw yeah it makes sense, but if I am just walking around?
Kalen
New member
Thats one way of looking at it.... another way of looking at it is that they're removing the choices that don't fit with their vision of the game, which is their prerogative. You can chose to accept these changes, mod them out, or play an older version.... plenty of choices, if you chose to exercise them. They may not be choices you like, but they exist.
Scyris
New member
Yeah, but the most recent removal of choice is the worse, the a19 loot system, its just terrible and does not fit in a sandbox style game at all. Its removed much of the fun of the game for me and many others, as now loot is so linear its just boring to go looting. Needs to go back to A18 where you could find anything on day 1 (albet at a low tier due to low gs) as it was random and it'd make every game different. It still was gamestaged loot, as higher material items like steel and such had a very low chance to be in loot at low GS with the chances rising as Game stage went up. I play permadeath, I die I delete the save, so the removal of choice/randomless from loot really has hurt this playstyle as now every game is the exact same loot wise. Its made it boring, a19 has been my least played alpha to date, just too much removal of choice from the player and too much linear tunnel style gameplay choices by the devs. I've been around since a9-10.
As for difficulty, playing above nomad means nothing if you allow respawns, only time difficulty above nomad matters is when its permadeath, then it becomes an actual threat/challenge imo. If your gonna allow respawns you might as well play on nomad, as no matter how many times you die you can't actually lose.
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Kalen
New member
Eh, I mostly like the current system. I've made the argument before that I'd like to see a chance (a very small chance) for being able to find better items at any GS, but I also feel that item degradation needs to be included to balance that. But, this is a discussion for another thread, as it doesn't really have anything to do with this topic.
pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
hiemfire
New member
1st room (which is the first "room" of the POI) had 1 tough (big mama) and 2 regular (a joe and a skater) which were fully expected and dealt with. Looted & salvaged that room while clearing noise traps and trash plies with no aggro while doing so. Move onto the next section. Single noise trap just past the doorway. Brightly lit. 4 high walls either side. Exit door from section is about 5 blocks across from entry and up a slope. Exit door is bracketed buy plywood covered windows. Break the noise trap, enter the "hall", begin to step to the side and both sets of plywood break dumping the staggering zombies, they did not faceplant, down the slope and into my face...
I'm just going to cm in a Rocket launcher a load of HE rockets and level the ranger stations whenever I start a new save from now on.
Boidster
New member
What you described above - creating better opportunities to take care of them before they take care of you, using the tools the game gives you - is not cheating. It's smart gameplay. Same for fashioning an exit before entering a potentially dangerous area. Same for putting down climb-able escape blocks before any (obviously a trap) 2+ block drops into rooms you can't see. These are S-M-R-T smart tactics.
Sleeper volumes are actually volumes, not trigger points (though I suppose it's possible to set up a 1x1x1 volume to act as a trigger). For the loot room at Red Mesa, there is a volume that covers the room itself (but not tall enough to cover the hatch at the top, so you can open the hatch without triggering the volume) as well as the area outside the vault door.
There is another sleeper volume which wraps around behind the loot room. Surpisingly, only the 2nd volume appears to have actual sleepers in it. They both have the same Group ID, though, which I assume means that both volumes apply to the same sleepers.
Only the vault-room volume (the one bordered in green) is set to "Attack" on activation. The other is "Active" which I think activates their hearing, but does not automatically wake them up. So if you somehow entered this area from behind the room (in the blue-bordered volume), you could conceivably stealth-kill the sleepers before you enter the main (green-bordered) vault volume. Of course the One True Path leads you into the vault-room volume which sets all the zombies to attack immediately.
What do you want to tell me with all this? It seems nothing is preventing you in this situation from running back from where you came, to regroup, restealth. Or is there?
hiemfire
New member
In the time it takes to turn to go back to the door, much less uncrouch while doing so, they were already attacking me and blocking the door to the garage thanks to the new break out --> stagger mechanic + going down a slope movement speed increase.
Kalen
New member
I mean if you're trying to prove that there are instances where stealth doesn't work.... mission accomplished. Though, I don't think anyone doubted that it was true. The majority of the time stealth is quite effective. For the cost of 2 perks, that's a pretty good ROI.