The correct course of action is to overhaul the attributes so that each complements all playstyles but particularly good for specific playstyles. Honestly I don't like the idea of fortitude and strength being split. It makes zero sense to be there
removing choices unifiing all builds into universal character equally skilled in everything ... is actually opposing course of every RPG
I don't see any reason to put Q6 crafting on a Pedestal of The Gods. The ability to craft it should be available, not restricted. The very idea that a survivor does not have a way to craft a Q6 stone axe is laughable. I was surprised it even made it out of meeting
I don't like the idea of weapon perks being tied to any attribute at all. Attributes should not increase damage directly to compensate for poor enemy scaling, attributes should improve your character at the direction that suits your playstyle. Nobody should be forced to go shotgun simply because they like mining, nobody should be forced to go sniper rifle if they like to go looting. If someone wants to go Fortitude and Agility build and specialize in sniper rifle then let them because that's called a marksman
TFP decided top tier should be exlusive to looting .. ideally big poi and not obtained by sitting in base and they stand behind this decision regardless small and loud group that complaining about that
no one is forced to anything ... want use shotguns ? sure why not ... rifle ? no one is holding you .-.... idea of perks is to specialize into whatever you decide .. if you like pistol and go full strenght ... its you who sacrificing pistol perks for better mining its classic rpg design .... if you choose to be healer you simply cant start complaining about having low damage can you ?
and while perk tree needs some balancing ... all attributes have its own great perks
It's laughable what people consider "choices" when they actually mean "illusion of choice" and misrepresent what people actually say. Instead of saying Hello, I can say Hi! making important choice here
Which classic RPG does not allow an increase in punching damage when you raise your strength? Which classic RPG does not require strength to wield Machine Gun? Breaking new ground here
The intent of this thread isn't to argue which skills or traits are stronger or weaker than others, but how to bring Intelligence in-line with other skill-trees and provide as much early-and-late game weapon viability. I don't care about how you use barter or pack mule. That's not important here.
The point is that every single skill-tree in the game has atleast one option for melee weapons, and one option for ranged weapons.
Except intelligence's melee weapons are not available until you're a fair way into your play-through, because they only have one type, and it seems to be steel tier on the loot-table.
And Intelligence's first-grade 'ranged weapon' is actually just a melee weapon, and a bad one. Which is a shame because it's actually cool as hell with it's aestetic and it's knockdown, but it being shoehorned into 'stone tier' means that it's damage has to be comparable to that of... a wooden club.
It's obviously made of iron at the very least, and should do as much damage as a real sledgehammer.
Shunt the pneumatic sledge over to the melee tree and make it drop when other iron-tier loot drops (and replace it in the ranged tree with a weaker gun-turret?) and you've got the problem half solved.
Of course, that means putting a robot in the electrocutioner tree, which...
As for my flashlight-tazer suggestion, I wouldn't actually make it require flashlights to be made (too much RNG) I was simply noting that those are objects that could be easily acquirable in the ruined city, and thus something we can easily justify the player-character being able to turn into a taser.
For actual parts, I'd use a bit of iron, a bit of copper and some electronic parts. Nothing you can't get very early on, if you manage to get your hands on a wrench and take a car apart.
I suppose it doesn't need to be based on a flashlight at all. It could be some non-discernible lump of metal and wires, with two sparking prongs on the end.
Jab the zombos to make them dance.
Low but continuous damage, only useful for 1v1 fights. Against multiple zombies, your best bet would be to stun each of them and run away before it wears off.
The regular stun baton could be made from pretty much the same stuff (but with forged iron) and be functionally the same weapon as it is now.
Basically a club with a chance to stun.
The steel version should definitely be cooler though. A sword or axe of some sort, with an added electrical threat.
"Electrocutioner" is much too cool a name to waste on some lame-ass 'club that occasionally stuns people'
I want an executioner's axe that fries you as it decapitates you, or a large spiked mace with lightning flashing from every prong.
Or just like... a mysterious metal box that you open up and shoot lighting out of.
Steel-tier weapons should look and feel badass.
Like the new steel axe. It looks cool as hell.
The first version of the taser should have the same range as a knife, and the second and third should have proper melee-weapon range. To make getting out of that primitive-age zone feel really satisfying.
Especially if you've got the Repulsor mod on and are sending dudes flying with every hit.
For turrets, I really do like the idea of the flying drone, and the current gun-turret has lots of ammo types (including shotgun, which is a nice change) but we gotta get a 'stone tier' one that actually counts as a gun. Even if it's only a turret-mounted blunderbuss or a baseball-throwing-machine converted to launch rocks.
It has to be usable at range.
I'm kinda attached to me previous ballista suggestion just because I like the idea of a siege weapon, and the fact that you can 'get in' a shotgun or SMG turret and manually aim and shoot them feels like there's potential there to be explored. Manned Turrets. Mounted Weapons.
It would also involve a 'stone age' robot not actually being a robot, because obviously having a fully automated self-aiming robot when all of your tools are made out of stone and you're wearing a shirt made out of grass would look weird-af.
A giant crossbow that you have to climb in and aim yourself would be more fitting.
Of course, if the Stone Age is replaced with a Scrap Age, then the t1 turret could be much easier to come up with.
It's laughable what people consider "choices" when they actually mean "illusion of choice" and misrepresent what people actually say. Instead of saying Hello, I can say Hi! making important choice here
illusion of choice? wake up there are massive differences between people somne people like me focus on int building and trading funny fact i combine it with rifles and magnum (better barter is completely broken,xp gain from traps easily pay for self in few blood moons .. significantly more resources from forge ? yes please
most people goes strenght with focus on melee/block damage/harvesting
significant amount of people also goes agility way light armor/parkour/stealth
if you want buff something its perception (yeah penetrator is nice .. and lucky looter too but not awesome enought to rush them.... especially when lucky looter got nerfed early )
nope problem with weapon skills is the fact they offer 30% damage + specific bonus (actually less because youc an take first rank with 0 attribute investment) and thats not really enought to give them strong priority
Which classic RPG does not allow an increase in punching damage when you raise your strength? Which classic RPG does not require strength to wield Machine Gun? Breaking new ground here
actually most of them .... because many rpg dont use attributes at all and use perks/talents/skills/abilities per level ... or LBD some even base stats /abilities entirely on gear
but oh wait .. strenght uunlocks perk that give you more carry weight .... perk that give you more block damage funny it means that you have to increase strenght to deal more damage to blocks ? gosh ... it does exactly what you want it to do ... just with additional choice mid way if you really want that perk or spend points somewhere else
require strenght ? also most of them ... usually weak strenght with heavy weapons leads to some disadvantages ... like higher recoil slower movement or decreased damage but only if we talk about actual heavy guns .. like miniguns rocket launchers .. anti material rifles .. flame throwers smg ? 3kg ak ? 4 kg even 15y nerdy boy handles carrying and using them
maybe that why they are under endurance instead strenght .... because only issue with those is recoil ... weight is laughtable even for 10y nerdy boy
the only heavvy weapons we have are m60(shouldnt be used from hip at all as far i know its mobile weapon .. but have tripod for actual use) and rocket launcher(no one rly care about this for fun weapon)
The intent of this thread isn't to argue which skills or traits are stronger or weaker than others, but how to bring Intelligence in-line with other skill-trees and provide as much early-and-late game weapon viability. I don't care about how you use barter or pack mule. That's not important here.
well int only competition early mid and late is strenght ... so its strongest or second strongest stat in game
The point is that every single skill-tree in the game has atleast one option for melee weapons, and one option for ranged weapons.
Except intelligence's melee weapons are not available until you're a fair way into your play-through, because they only have one type, and it seems to be steel tier on the loot-table.
its iron tier while its t2 weapon its under groupWeaponsT1_Melee avaible after gamestage 10 (3-4 days max)
probably to not make púeople like you whine about early inacessibility
on other side if you werent so ridiculously lazy ... digging or asking around before you start complaining on forums ... t1 baton is also in game as test
And Intelligence's first-grade 'ranged weapon' is actually just a melee weapon, and a bad one. Which is a shame because it's actually cool as hell with it's aestetic and it's knockdown, but it being shoehorned into 'stone tier' means that it's damage has to be comparable to that of... a wooden club.
It's obviously made of iron at the very least, and should do as much damage as a real sledgehammer.
definitely .. acessible from day 1 requiring no recipes resources ammo or stamina .. hiting as hard as sledge .. with strong knockdown
inteligence first grade weapon ... is actually quite nice weapon ... with unmatched knockback and no stamina use= worst enemy of all melee weapons early with bonus feature to place it on ground and use second gun at once .... in name of balance rofl
if something ... junk sledge needs severe nerfs
actually its nonsense to give it more damage it would be just another case of breaking physics (it is even now)
when you punch someone with hand helf weapon same force should apply to you (and zombies fly away few meters)
holding something even with this power suddenly punching someone would definitely hurt you it could made sense at original state .. but not now (even if you ignore the fact that metal thing of this weight would probably prevent you from running)
Shunt the pneumatic sledge over to the melee tree and make it drop when other iron-tier loot drops (and replace it in the ranged tree with a weaker gun-turret?) and you've got the problem half solved.
Of course, that means putting a robot in the electrocutioner tree, which...
wow so they made strong melee turret .. great ranged turret .. and flying laser turret in one line ? "how ridiculous decision .. what they do next ? add crappy one shot shotgun just to evolve it into auto shotgun ?? changing its behaviour so extremely?!"
As for my flashlight-tazer suggestion, I wouldn't actually make it require flashlights to be made (too much RNG) I was simply noting that those are objects that could be easily acquirable in the ruined city, and thus something we can easily justify the player-character being able to turn into a taser.
For actual parts, I'd use a bit of iron, a bit of copper and some electronic parts. Nothing you can't get very early on, if you manage to get your hands on a wrench and take a car apart.
I suppose it doesn't need to be based on a flashlight at all. It could be some non-discernible lump of metal and wires, with two sparking prongs on the end.
Jab the zombos to make them dance.
Low but continuous damage, only useful for 1v1 fights. Against multiple zombies, your best bet would be to stun each of them and run away before it wears off.
The regular stun baton could be made from pretty much the same stuff (but with forged iron) and be functionally the same weapon as it is now.
sure how about lightsaber or plasma grenades ...its kinda fits into level of your ideas
For turrets, I really do like the idea of the flying drone, and the current gun-turret has lots of ammo types (including shotgun, which is a nice change) but we gotta get a 'stone tier' one that actually counts as a gun. Even if it's only a turret-mounted blunderbuss or a baseball-throwing-machine converted to launch rocks.
yay lets add stone age robotic weapon ... maybe wind powered automatic rock thrower that recognize zombies from you .. maybe held together by plant fibers and powered by human turd(or actually shot them) iam sorry but this is just so ridiculous i can only laught
Personal play style most important factor in game enjoyment. I personally don't stick to one skill tree. Might not be the most efficient way to build character, but I find it's the most fun. I use sledgehammer in very early game, but recently have found myself leveling up club skills for long term. Like Master Chef 2 or so; along with found recipes reduces hunger stress. Int for forge quickly. Sex-rex at moderate rate of leveling to alleviate all kinds of stamina issues. Bicycle in first few days, sometimes skip motorbike for Motorcycle according to how parts fall and what traders offer. I scatter points all over the place, depending on what i "feel" my character needs to grow into a fully self-actualized survivor. (Like how I fit in baby-boomer psychobabble? I'm 76 years old and have just passed 7d2d 7100 hour mark on iMac. Too bad 7d2d hours spent on PS4 before that sorry state of affairs went Tango Uniform weren't tallied. I'm having fun, TFP. Keep doing what you're doing. )
Intelligence is my favourite stat to hate. I love that it opens up the crafting doors, but man I can't stand how little it gives back.
I like that specializing into a weapon lets you make a better one, that makes some sense to me. I don't like that you have to go so deep that you can't afford the other means of making it (crafting bench, forge, crucible) until you spec into a totally different stat. It becomes a balancing game, and they've done a fair job with the schematics and books. The current loot system needs some tweaking, but I can't put my finger on a good way of doing it so I bite my tongue. I think as you go into a specific field the tool tables should be a bit more available to balance the inability to make them yourself. That depends on days spent, in my opinion, because you can strike some good loot early and that'd shift the game.
I am an intel based support on my multiplayer gig and it's because I can make ammo, vehicles and gas. As well as meds. I can't make good weapons though, which we need now that we're four waves deep and have enough weapon mods to make a difference. None of us can craft the weapons we use but me, and I'm too low on the tech tree to help even though I'm at 7-8 intelligence. I took the hard road because I know where to find the good loot, and I buy the stuff I can't make because I work my eco well. They're all new and I am half gaming the gamestage and half showing them the ropes. They're struggling because they're stat focused and want higher health or stamina.
It's a tough balance and a lot is in the mix, and I don't envy the devs' fight to make it work. I play a lot of solo and I enjoy the game as it's presented because I know it won't always be ideal. I adapt to the changes. The struggle is finding a balance of fun versus fun to win. I think a lot of people I see gripe just wanna win.
... I can't make good weapons though, which we need now that we're four waves deep and have enough weapon mods to make a difference. None of us can craft the weapons we use but me, and I'm too low on the tech tree to help even though I'm at 7-8 intelligence. ...
I don't understand this. Crafting a good weapon is not the int players task but the users task himself (except for guns in stone age but only because stone age guns are still missing until A20). If one of the other players uses a spear for example, why don't you give him a hint to put points into spears and craft his spears himself?
I don't understand this. Crafting a good weapon is not the int players task but the users task himself (except for guns in stone age but only because stone age guns are still missing until A20). If one of the other players uses a spear for example, why don't you give him a hint to put points into spears and craft his spears himself?
Like I mentioned, they're more worried about things like cardio and fast healing. They're trying to somehow increase their base stats (health and stamina) and I've explained they can't, but... They spend their points however they choose. Fortunately, one person has been catching on and listening now that we're on wave four and they have some more hours behind them.
Like I mentioned, they're more worried about things like cardio and fast healing. They're trying to somehow increase their base stats (health and stamina) and I've explained they can't, but... They spend their points however they choose. Fortunately, one person has been catching on and listening now that we're on wave four and they have some more hours behind them.
"If you put points in into your weapon skill, the weapon will do more damage and swing/reload faster. So also let you make better versions of the weapons you want. These are your most important stats. Stuff like Cardio can come after, as a quality of life perk."
Then let them live or die by their own choices.
If you're four waves in and nobody has invested into using any kind of weapon yet, then they probably deserve to all wipe. Especially if you've been explicitly telling when that they need to.
"If you put points in into your weapon skill, the weapon will do more damage and swing/reload faster. So also let you make better versions of the weapons you want. These are your most important stats. Stuff like Cardio can come after, as a quality of life perk."
Then let them live or die by their own choices.
If you're four waves in and nobody has invested into using any kind of weapon yet, then they probably deserve to all wipe. Especially if you've been explicitly telling when that they need to.
The solution to this might be to set up the turrets as far away as possible from your horde base. If they trigger a demo far from the base his explosion will just make a dent in the ground, if they let him pass, they will put the rest of their ammo into his backside. You can increase the operation range by walkways going away from your POI. This also makes the turrets very controllable as they will only shoot if you are on such a walkway. You can also set up your turrets to only shoot at demos backs by only allowing them to shoot in the direction of your base.
I couldn't test this yet as my co-op players tend to vote for a restart quite early in the game and I haven't played INT lately, but theoretically it sounds workable.
The solution to this might be to set up the turrets as far away as possible from your horde base. If they trigger a demo far from the base his explosion will just make a dent in the ground, if they let him pass, they will put the rest of their ammo into his backside. You can increase the operation range by walkways going away from your POI. This also makes the turrets very controllable as they will only shoot if you are on such a walkway. You can also set up your turrets to only shoot at demos backs by only allowing them to shoot in the direction of your base.
I couldn't test this yet as my co-op players tend to vote for a restart quite early in the game and I haven't played INT lately, but theoretically it sounds workable.
still .. its quite weakness and mass use of junk turretsisnt too effectivethey are far more usefull as tool for pois btw smg / shotgun turrets cant trigger demolisher if they shot from behind .. junk likely follow this trend
overall you dont want demos to explode ( holes/no xp/no loot bag)
create spaces in your horde base where it won't matter much if they blow up. Dump chute/pit style horde bases means demos are not even remotely a threat.
You can also have redundant pillars and other support structure in case they go off in some place important.
In our MP base, we have a Help Desk style of base. Modified killing corridor design, only no walls except on the inside. There is a way to create a bottle neck with shaped frames to allow a person to go melee or ranged. No bars needed. Ramps and wedges are both used regular and inverted.
The downside is that the inside is completely protected from birds, but the outside isn't. Some of us like to fight on the roof while the melee peeps are inside the help desk area.
There are three raised platforms, so if one gets blown up, the other two are just fine. You can also gird your superstructures with plates.
Id rather kill a demo quickly, and loose some construction mats than to let it get into the heart of the base structure.
It is also possible to sit at the level where you could do a Q5 turrets but not to have enough parts to do even one. I have experienced that when going into int occasionally. Rare, but can happen. Or a random location eats your junk turret, by just making it vanish when you place it and then you need to find a new one or enough turret parts to do a new one, while the gamestage is high enough to be relatively helpless without your turret.
It is also possible to sit at the level where you could do a Q5 turrets but not to have enough parts to do even one. I have experienced that when going into int occasionally. Rare, but can happen. Or a random location eats your junk turret, by just making it vanish when you place it and then you need to find a new one or enough turret parts to do a new one, while the gamestage is high enough to be relatively helpless without your turret.
* The game won't be balanced for bugs. Personally frustrating, but nobody said EA is without drawbacks. If you have a SP game or know the server admin you simply can get a replacement from creative mode.
* On horde night at least melee turrets are an adequate replacement if you set them up correctly and generally I don't have any problem finding a few of them in the iron age.
I think what they could do for the INT tree is add the crossbow to it as crossbows are actually more complicated than bows when crafting ( especially the tension driven trigger system ) and then adding a taser or just a normal button as a low tier melee weapon
SouthernMike said:
I think what they could do for the INT tree is add the crossbow to it as crossbows are actually more complicated than bows when crafting ( especially the tension driven trigger system ) and then adding a taser or just a normal button as a low tier melee weapon
The shock arrow could be quite nice as an Intelligence perk. Gives you time to reload, makes you valuable to a team in early game when pretty much all of you are using bows.
