PC Looting Progression Plan

[Laz Man]

I just started looking through the xmls....and it doesn't look like it takes much to mod loot progression to a happy place for anybody.

For example, I think t1 weapons have a 0% probability to drop until GS 10.  Wouldnt take much I don't think to change that to 1%.....

 

[Kalen]

You want to attempt....consensus?

Definitely a different thread and for starters we need to come up with a way to mod the community.

Easiest would be to just remove repair kits from the game. Anything that can be repaired without one isn’t really worth keeping for the whole game so primitive repair could remain but T1+ would degrade. 

Hmmm, you'd still need repair kits for vehicles.  I feel like they should still be repairable.   Plus, if you're going to remove item repair then I feel like you need to decrease the rate an item degrades to compensate.   

 

[Roland]

Hmmm, you'd still need repair kits for vehicles.

for now anyway...

 

[Laz Man]

Not going to name names 'cause I don't want to drag others into this fight, but here's from just this thread:

Outside of this thread, a certain poster has been pushing this mod wherever he can.
View attachment 14129

I checked out this mod, and he removed alot of the vanilla probability templates and replaced it with his own.  Some of the removals may have not even been necessary.  However, In general, he made all weapons/armor/mods/tools have a chance to be lootable at 4% at level 0.  He didn't touch any of the quality templates so even if you do get a higher tier item, it is likely to be a gray quality item until you reach a higher GS which is fair.

Edit: Just a thought, another possible mod to vanilla is to just alter the loot tables for the T4/T5 POI loot room chests to have a chance at higher tiered items so that the player has to earn the higher tiered loot and not just get "lucky" finding it in a lower tiered POI.

 

[DaChibii]

I know the conversation is shifting towards altering the probability values in the loot tables, but may I offer a suggestion.

Perhaps, add a player inventory check to see whether a player has a stone tool of an equal or lower quality, and if not remove the corresponding entry in the derived tables? (Or at least reduce the probability?) This way players that need the tool find it (and at higher quality), and those that would just scrap it are saved the .5secs it takes to do the action.

 

[Boidster]

But what if I'm looting with my Q5 shovel on my belt and you my faithful party member suuure would like a Q4 shovel. I guess give all the best loot to one player (me, obviously) and then the n00b (you) has to loot all of the containers to make sure there's a chance for you to improve. Of course if you loot anything higher than what I have, you have to give it to me to restore balance. And I get to inspect your inventory after every loot incase you're hiding something from me because that is just the sort of thing you would do!

 

[DaChibii]

But what if I'm looting with my Q5 shovel on my belt and you my faithful party member suuure would like a Q4 shovel. I guess give all the best loot to one player (me, obviously) and then the n00b (you) has to loot all of the containers to make sure there's a chance for you to improve. Of course if you loot anything higher than what I have, you have to give it to me to restore balance. And I get to inspect your inventory after every loot incase you're hiding something from me because that is just the sort of thing you would do!

Currently the loot system as I'm aware, has shifted to away from 'looter' as a specialized class and more of 'everyone should loot'. This from how loot level is determined by the highest GS within a party, and is applied to the entire party. Yes, Lucker Looter skill and magazines affect personal looting, but overall this means that on average everyone in the party loots the same.

In your scenario, it wouldn't be an issue unless one party member wasn't looting at all (which is like saying they're not killing zombies, or crafting anything, or harvesting blocks). So a party would roughly have the same stone tool level, and if a player had skilled into Lucky Looter then he would be handing down their old tools until they reached Q6 tools (at which point either each player would have to loot for themselves, upgrade to Iron tier, or be content with Q5 stuff).

I see can players suddenly getting a bunch of Stone Shovels because they don't keep them in their inventory (and thus be annoying to find unneeded duplicates). But as long as most players look at the mechanics, it would feel normal. You get a item you need when you need it and in a reasonable amount of time, and don't get an over abundance of items that you don't want. To be honest, most games have this as a way to help a struggling player and only players that look to exploit game mechanics really abuse it.

 

[Boidster]

Currently the loot system as I'm aware, has shifted to away from 'looter' as a specialized class and more of 'everyone should loot'. This from how loot level is determined by the highest GS within a party, and is applied to the entire party. Yes, Lucker Looter skill and magazines affect personal looting, but overall this means that on average everyone in the party loots the same.

I actually think the change to Lucky Looter has pushed in the opposite direction, hasn't it? We always did have a party-level gamestage for looting (where "always" = "in A18").

Before: we get a party "loot GS" and the whole party gets the benefit of Lucky Looter if one member has it

Now: we get a party "loot GS" but only the player(s) perked into Lucky Looter get the benefit

Seems to me a party would want one guy to spec into Lucky Looter (and give him any/all loot-related books) and then open most of the high-value crates for the party. It's as likely as not that I am missing something here, though...my co-op partner has been AFK for 6 weeks so I haven't done any party play in A19 yet.

 

[Tmodloader]

Easiest would be to just remove repair kits from the game. Anything that can be repaired without one isn’t really worth keeping for the whole game so primitive repair could remain but T1+ would degrade. 

I don't like that idea and I'm sure that would mess with anyone that tends to keep all their consumables till the end of RPGs  :classic_laugh:
If something extreme like that was ever implimented I'd rather it be another option and certainly not mandatory. I much prefer simply loss of items on death. I am actually unsure how anyone can play with the backpacks but that's just me. Loss on death solves this somewhat though I do feel death needs to be more punishing in general too to discourage exploit-y deaths and make you feel like you must survive as long as you can more than just that being the name of the game.

 

[Kalen]

I don't like that idea and I'm sure that would mess with anyone that tends to keep all their consumables till the end of RPGs  :classic_laugh:
If something extreme like that was ever implimented I'd rather it be another option and certainly not mandatory. I much prefer simply loss of items on death. I am actually unsure how anyone can play with the backpacks but that's just me. Loss on death solves this somewhat though I do feel death needs to be more punishing in general too to discourage exploit-y deaths and make you feel like you must survive as long as you can more than just that being the name of the game.

Loss of items on death would have zero impact on anyone that plays dead is dead.   

 

[Tmodloader]

I see can players suddenly getting a bunch of Stone Shovels because they don't keep them in their inventory (and thus be annoying to find unneeded duplicates). But as long as most players look at the mechanics, it would feel normal. You get a item you need when you need it and in a reasonable amount of time, and don't get an over abundance of items that you don't want. To be honest, most games have this as a way to help a struggling player and only players that look to exploit game mechanics really abuse it.

I feel like that ruins the purpose of looting even more than A19 haters hate it.
Not every loot needs to "feel good."

Loss of items on death would have zero impact on anyone that plays dead is dead.   

True true, wasn't considering that, wish that was an option. Maybe a more extensive repair system is a solution because repair kits are definitely somewhat cheap. Iron age keeping repair kits is fine but maybe steel T3 type gear needing more expensive repair would be good for the game.

 

[Kalen]

True true, wasn't considering that, wish that was an option. Maybe a more extensive repair system is a solution because repair kits are definitely somewhat cheap. Iron age keeping repair kits is fine but maybe steel T3 type gear needing more expensive repair would be good for the game.

The real problem is that currently, items are infinitely repairable so that when you find an item you get to keep it forever.   This becomes an issue when you consider opening up early game looting to have the potential to drop higher tier items.  Since modding in a degradation system seems pretty difficult, eliminating repairs entirely might be the best solution.  

Personally, I think, if you do that, you also have to increase the durability of items to compensate.   Figuring out how long an item should last will probably be a source of contention as that is entirely based on peoples' opinions on what "feels right".   I would think an item lasting roughly 2-3 days of continuous use per quality level would be a good starting point.

 

[Tmodloader]

If you make repair expensive enough that you don't always have new kits though then you may be able to keep the item forever but you will have times where you can't use it. Would have to require something that is really only lootable to make sure the grind doesn't skyrocket. Then again you have to keep in mind how annoying and how much time it'll take to move all item mods.

 

[Laz Man]

Currently the loot system as I'm aware, has shifted to away from 'looter' as a specialized class and more of 'everyone should loot'. This from how loot level is determined by the highest GS within a party, and is applied to the entire party. Yes, Lucker Looter skill and magazines affect personal looting, but overall this means that on average everyone in the party loots the same.

In your scenario, it wouldn't be an issue unless one party member wasn't looting at all (which is like saying they're not killing zombies, or crafting anything, or harvesting blocks). So a party would roughly have the same stone tool level, and if a player had skilled into Lucky Looter then he would be handing down their old tools until they reached Q6 tools (at which point either each player would have to loot for themselves, upgrade to Iron tier, or be content with Q5 stuff).

I see can players suddenly getting a bunch of Stone Shovels because they don't keep them in their inventory (and thus be annoying to find unneeded duplicates). But as long as most players look at the mechanics, it would feel normal. You get a item you need when you need it and in a reasonable amount of time, and don't get an over abundance of items that you don't want. To be honest, most games have this as a way to help a struggling player and only players that look to exploit game mechanics really abuse it.

I think the duplicate issue with any item can be minimized by offerring some type of quest turn for them.  For example, don't have a use for multiple blunderbusses because you already have 4 on your hotbar for chain attacks?  No problem, just turn in 10 for a quality 1 pistol at trader joels!

 

[Tmodloader]

I think the duplicate issue with any item can be minimized by offerring some type of quest turn for them.  For example, don't have a use for multiple blunderbusses because you already have 4 on your hotbar for chain attacks?  No problem, just turn in 10 for a quality 1 pistol at trader joels!

If only there was a way to exchange items. Maybe for coins or something so you can build up progress for that quality 1 pistol.   :classic_laugh:

 

[Laz Man]

The real problem is that currently, items are infinitely repairable so that when you find an item you get to keep it forever.   This becomes an issue when you consider opening up early game looting to have the potential to drop higher tier items.  Since modding in a degradation system seems pretty difficult, eliminating repairs entirely might be the best solution.  

Personally, I think, if you do that, you also have to increase the durability of items to compensate.   Figuring out how long an item should last will probably be a source of contention as that is entirely based on peoples' opinions on what "feels right".   I would think an item lasting roughly 2-3 days of continuous use per quality level would be a good starting point.

I agree with your assessment.  I have an overhaul mod on my backlog of things to do and one of the things I want is limited repairing/durability so items have more value and it was worth keeping duplicates.

If only there was a way to exchange items. Maybe for coins or something so you can build up progress for that quality 1 pistol.   :classic_laugh:

Im sure it would be relatively easy to create a custom quest where the player has to gather x amount of an item then turn it in for y at the nearest trader.

 

[Roland]

I don't like that idea and I'm sure that would mess with anyone that tends to keep all their consumables till the end of RPGs  :classic_laugh:
If something extreme like that was ever implimented I'd rather it be another option and certainly not mandatory.

I was talking about a modding possibility and not suggesting something for the base game.

I agree with your assessment.  I have an overhaul mod on my backlog of things to do and one of the things I want is limited repairing/durability so items have more value and it was worth keeping duplicates.

Not just that but think about the diamond tip mod that increases durability. Who the hell cares about that mod with forever tools?

 

[Tmodloader]

One random question with current progression. How rare are forges? I've found bellows and anvils before I've ever seen a forge or forge schematic. It is like the game begs that you take that intellect perk.

 

[Roland]

I agree with your assessment.  I have an overhaul mod on my backlog of things to do and one of the things I want is limited repairing/durability so items have more value and it was worth keeping duplicates.

Here is an idea. Leave the repair kits for vehicles but make the repair item needed for an item a duplicate of that item. In other words you are combining the best parts of two duplicate weapons to add some longevity to what you have. That would add to the value of getting duplicate items and also add to the choices for what to do with things you find. Let's say you have a yellow shotgun and you find an orange shotgun.

Do you sell it?

Do you use it to repair your yellow shotgun?

Do you scrap it for parts for when you can craft a Green shotgun?

 

[Laz Man]

Here is an idea. Leave the repair kits for vehicles but make the repair item needed for an item a duplicate of that item. In other words you are combining the best parts of two duplicate weapons to add some longevity to what you have. That would add to the value of getting duplicate items and also add to the choices for what to do with things you find. Let's say you have a yellow shotgun and you find an orange shotgun.

Do you sell it?

Do you use it to repair your yellow shotgun?

Do you scrap it for parts for when you can craft a Green shotgun?

Isn't that like the old workstation combine feature of the past?  Not saying its bad, just more difficult to xml mod.

Edit: prob easier to use parts as the repair consumable. (E.g. shotgun parts to repair shotguns, pistol/smg parts to repair pistols/smgs.)