PC How soon do you expect to see better than primitive loot?

[beHypE]

That right there is the prefect illustration of why A18 was so broken. That's why they fixed it. Thank you for the example.

That being said if you replace 'usually' with 'sometimes' it becomes a pretty good illustration of what was amazing back in the days and what is terrible now. 

Scyris is probably overexagerating by some margin but I get where he is coming from. No matter how many raised gamestages POI's you loot in the future, you'll still know exactly what's in the loot tables and what isn't. I'd much rather have them make the best crates / chests less abundant and give them a balanced probability of finding something good once in a while. Unpredictability is key in a looting game, and sadly there just aren't enough items in the game to stay random while linear. 

As for the original question, I wish I couldn't answer it, because being able to answer such a question is exactly what I dislike with the new progression. 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Fascinating. Now things that aren´t even in the game get labeled as bad already.  Can you tell me the lotto numbers for next week please. Also you can turn off the horde instead of hiding in a hole. Same result. 

 

[guardianangelmp]

Within the first 5 safes/tool boxes/shotgun Messiah boxes I open.

The believable probability of there not being something worth while in those containers is next to nil.

 

[meganoth]

... Like if I open a gunsafe I expect guns (Pistols at a minimum even on day 1, or double barrel shotguns) and ammo, not stone tier items, ..

I fully endorse this but then I also expect that I'm not able to open locked gunsafes at all until I got lots of training as a safecracker and the neccessary equipment, a blow torch or a drill with lots of diamond drill-bits.

Within the first 5 safes/tool boxes/shotgun Messiah boxes I open.

The believable probability of there not being something worth while in those containers is next to nil.

You can open safes in shotgun messiahs? Unbelievable

 

[Roland]

This is not a new argument. Back in Alpha 14ish when gun parts and weapon assembling were added, you no longer found any whole guns in safes. You only found parts everywhere and the people who wanted to find guns were (excuse me) all up in arms about it. But eventually it became the norm and then when parts and assembling went away with the change to modifications and guns were back in the safes people were upset about the parts system going away. 

Now you read people saying that they would be happy to just find parts in the safes. It really is interesting how such perspectives shift. I myself was upset about the removal of iron ore but now I don't even think about it. Time heals all wounds.

 

[Ramethzer0]

I thought about making this a poll, but decided that might be to limiting for responses

How soon do you expect to see loot that is better than primitive?

Personally, I think it is fine where it is. I look forward to getting that Q4-6 primitive tool, especially on my builds that cant make anything better than a Q1.

I agree.  I like this sort of progression.  I also like the fact that many times, in order to get said items - I don't have to raid big brand locations to get those either.

But how soon do I expect?  I've started to find iron loot as early as GS13+, and more regularly at GS30+.  This takes about a week of in game time when I play 90 minute days typically.

 

[alanea]

Day 1, 5 mins in, I want my loot to be random like a18 is, where you can find anything on any day, just with chances of the better stuff rising as gamestage rising. I've pretty much quit 7dtd over the A19 loot changes as its made the game boring, going out and looting stuff to see what I find was one of the main draws the game had for me, and the linear loot/schematic setup it uses now completly destroyed that.

nothing is linear youc an still have lets say ak on  day 1  chance is just lower and it will be low quality

The linear loot would work if this was a linear rpg, however its not, its a fully destructable sandbox pretty much, and having loot linear like this just ruins it. TFP has done many dumb things over the years but this loot change has to be by and far the biggest, even bigger than removing learn by doing. Even them removing LBD didn't stop me from enjoying the game. But this loot change? Has killed pretty much all the fun and enjoyment I had in the game. I am also not the only one who feels like this.

 it turned every single game into a unique experience as I never knew what I was going to find.

 yeah  every run was unique depending whether  you found  Q5-6   shotgun or ak on first day   massacred  slow zombies( defined by gamestage)  and called it survival

I also dislike how a19 linear loot also has guarnteed quality 5-6 items in every single container, this was yet another thing a18 handled better, quality 1-3 was common but 4-6 were rare even at higher gamestages, so it made crafting more important if you wanted quality 4-5 items early. Compared to a19, where there is little point to crafting, wait a bit and you'll be handed quality 6 of everything, you do not need certain things early game.

err thats straight lie  ..  most boxes dont contain any   q5-6  even at  day  30+

All in all the a19 loot change has pretty much ruined the game for a lot of players, and needs to be revereted back to a18 loot, even with their endgame plan, a18 loot is still the better version, as you could apply the gamestage boosts for poi tier and biome to the a18 loot system just as easly as the a19 one.

"lot of  players"   theres like  10 people  whining about it on forum thats it  overall theres more people  pissed by specific parts of new loot(like shovel in safe)  but liking  progressive loot  that whiners  .. and you donmt even have to count people who are rather happy with m19  calling just for minor changes or biome bonus

I really hope they change it, as 7dtd went from a game I used to play a ton in a18, to a game I've not played much at all since a19 experimental due to the loot being so poorly done, and so boring comapred to a18.

Naw, it'll still be the same linear garbage even with those put in, the main problem is at any GS you know exactly what loot and what quality your going to find in every container of that type. Havng biomes and poi tier boost your gamestage temporarly is not going to fix the problem. Especially when you could apply the same system to a18. as Gamestages effected chances to find steel tools or guns etc even on day 1, as well as what tier, you could find a steel tool early even on day 1 in a18

actually nope  gamestage added just percentage to loot quantity thats all   item types and quality stayed same (  modified only by perk (making hugher  quality pieces more common)  but still pure rng randomly droping  q5-6  top tier weapons even on  day   1  with some luck (or looting few poi)

The fact Roland even had to make a poll on it kinda shows there is a big problem with the playerbase with the change, and the general reaction is that people don't like the a19 loot system at all. Dispite what the poll might say, these forums aren't super populated so a poll is kinda pointless.

actually all polls  about a19  loot ended as clear " i like a19  loot but it needs some tweaks"

This is not a new argument. Back in Alpha 14ish when gun parts and weapon assembling were added, you no longer found any whole guns in safes. You only found parts everywhere and the people who wanted to find guns were (excuse me) all up in arms about it. But eventually it became the norm and then when parts and assembling went away with the change to modifications and guns were back in the safes people were upset about the parts system going away. 

Now you read people saying that they would be happy to just find parts in the safes. It really is interesting how such perspectives shift. I myself was upset about the removal of iron ore but now I don't even think about it. Time heals all wounds.

thats actuall bs  since  weapon parts dropped commonly ...  but you could still loot completed gun  reasonably often.. not  to mention most air drops contained one

problem  was the requirement of  skillbook to  exchange parts /repair   keeping you  behind double rng

a17  made both weapons and ammo  basically  standard  starting gear (  with game stage adding just % to loot abundance with  no impact on item  /quality)

for example i never used iron tools in a17  a18  as stone served well on first day  and day  7 meant full set of steel tools  /weapons (4-6)

 

[Kalen]

actually nope  gamestage added just percentage to loot quantity thats all   item types and quality stayed same (  modified only by perk (making hugher  quality pieces more common)  but still pure rng randomly droping  q5-6  top tier weapons even on  day   1  with some luck (or looting few poi)

This doesn't appear to be correct.

Looking at the xml it appears that T1 can't drop until GS10, T2 until 49, and T3 until 89.

Quality 4 can't drop until GS 50, Q5 until 80, and Q6 until 110.

Unless I'm reading them wrong

 

[Roland]

thats actuall bs  since  weapon parts dropped commonly ...  but you could still loot completed gun  reasonably often..

If you say so. I remember it differently. I remember quite a few threads complaining about how nobody in America keeps only gun parts in their safes and it was ridiculous that whole guns were nowhere to be found. 

 

[Worrun]

Day 1, 5 mins in, I want my loot to be random like a18 is, where you can find anything on any day, just with chances of the better stuff rising as gamestage rising. I've pretty much quit 7dtd over the A19 loot changes as its made the game boring, going out and looting stuff to see what I find was one of the main draws the game had for me, and the linear loot/schematic setup it uses now completly destroyed that.

Literally this, for me too.

 

[Maharin]

Those of you looking for easy mode to kill zombies in the beginning, spec knives and make a level 2 bone knife.  Stab zombies in the head.  It takes practice but unless you have them running at top speed in your settings you can do this with better than good odds of surviving.  I play on survivalist difficulty and can still kill zombies reliably on day one using this tactic.

 

[alanea]

I never add to intel after that and rely on the loot to get my recipes.. the problem here is, with the linear loot, I think even the schematics are in it, so there is for example 0 chance to find so and so schematic before a certain GS. I'd hate to see what GS you need before you can find the crucible or its recipe. In A18 I usually had one by day 8-14 or so from looting with 1 int and 0 in lucky looter, I have gone as long as day 28 or so without it though, thats what I meant by randomness and what made it fun to restart, never know what your gonna find.

actually int is strongest attribute since a17

by not  getting it  you lose large amount of 

dukes (better barter multiplies signicficantly value of loot) 

materials(forge bonus)

trader offer

 solar energy

as well as locking out vehicles until you get  lucky

Capp00  in his series found first crucible in a18  at day  43

yeah crucible recipe was  easy to get for most ... ( high chance to finding  destroyed forges) .. they quite nerfed that in a19

i had myself cruc before day  20  from loot  and seen atleast  4 at traders ( first around day 10)

overall a19 cruc is definitely easier to get than a18 (not really good thing)

The current loot system in a19, along with the digging zombies and now swimming zombies just took choice away from the player. If someone wants to hide in a hole to escape the horde? let them imo, its their game.

nah swiming /digging  just removed  hole in game  based on unfinished  zombie behavior

7 dies to die  "survival" game oh iam so scared lets dig self up  3 blocks deep and completely skip the ultimate challenge thats game build upon

Right at the start, if they want the base game to be slow like it is currently then manipulate the quality tiers instead.

the want you to prohress through all tiers  if you cant live 2-3 weeks  with  mix of stone / iron tools  then problem isnt in game what if steel tools didnt exist ? would you still cosider  iron  pickaxe at day  7 trash ?

people are just used to have everything instantly = fail of a17 a18  where you usually had  more than one iron/steel tier tool just from looting cars  searching for city on day  1  .. it spoiled many people to consider that normal and those people now demand everything and immediately because they feel someone took something away from them

Within the first 5 safes/tool boxes/shotgun Messiah boxes I open.

The believable probability of there not being something worth while in those containers is next to nil.

 5  is small measure   for rng based drop .... but you are likely to leave with low tier gun  bunch of ammo and some high tier stone shovels / bows  with some mods and silver/gold

something that turns you into incarnation of death ready on amssacre top gamestage hordes on foot ?  nope

enought to be upgrade for you  and bring some dukes ?  definitely

This is not a new argument. Back in Alpha 14ish when gun parts and weapon assembling were added, you no longer found any whole guns in safes. You only found parts everywhere and the people who wanted to find guns were (excuse me) all up in arms about it. But eventually it became the norm and then when parts and assembling went away with the change to modifications and guns were back in the safes people were upset about the parts system going away. 

Now you read people saying that they would be happy to just find parts in the safes. It really is interesting how such perspectives shift. I myself was upset about the removal of iron ore but now I don't even think about it. Time heals all wounds.

 

[Solomon]

the want you to prohress through all tiers  if you cant live 2-3 weeks  with  mix of stone / iron tools  then problem isnt in game what if steel tools didnt exist ? would you still cosider  iron  pickaxe at day  7 trash ?

people are just used to have everything instantly = fail of a17 a18  where you usually had  more than one iron/steel tier tool just from looting cars  searching for city on day  1  .. it spoiled many people to consider that normal and those people now demand everything and immediately because they feel someone took something away from them

If steel tools wouldnt exist i would still complain about stone tools in the loot. These are cheap as hell tutorial items, stuff what you throw out the second you get your hands on the next tier of equipment. Its like white rarity gear in an mmo, most people dont even bother picking them up because its worthless.

 

[RipClaw]

These are cheap as hell tutorial items, stuff what you throw out the second you get your hands on the next tier of equipment.

You repeat this over and over again but it is not true. They are not tutorial tools. They are regular tools and useful.

Some people keep the stone axe for a long time because it is a universal tool that can be used as axe, pickaxe and repair tools but it only needs one slot in your inventory. With mods and points in Miner 69 it is not even that weak. And if I want to dig up something and I don't have my pickaxe or auger with me, I quickly make myself a stone shovel. Works as well.

I found a Q6 Blunderbuss with ammo during a T5 quest today. So I put it on my belt and used it for the rest of the quest. I play on Nomad difficulty and a Blunderbuss rips the head off most zombie at point blank range if you have points in Boomstick. But even if the zombie survives this, he' usually winded or stunned. That's why the Blunderbuss is still a serious weapon in the endgame.

 

[Tmodloader]

I'm liking A19's progression for better than primitive in loot. It's not like looting ever feels useless even day 1. I was skeptical until I actually played and saw how it is in practice.

Some people keep the stone axe for a long time because it is a universal tool that can be used as axe, pickaxe and repair tools but it only needs one slot in your inventory.

I'm at GS 110 now and still use stone axe so I concur 

One thing I do think should be done is lucky looter buff

 

[meganoth]

I'm liking A19's progression for better than primitive in loot. It's not like looting ever feels useless even day 1. I was skeptical until I actually played and saw how it is in practice.

I'm at GS 110 now and still use stone axe so I concur 

One thing I do think should be done is lucky looter buff

GS 138 and I'm still using a stone axe for wood, while using an auger for mining and serious deconstruction work

 

[Laz Man]

I'm liking A19's progression for better than primitive in loot. It's not like looting ever feels useless even day 1. I was skeptical until I actually played and saw how it is in practice.

I'm at GS 110 now and still use stone axe so I concur 

One thing I do think should be done is lucky looter buff

I think whats broken is clearing a high tier POI too early (exclude cheese clears...).  Although most of us don't do it, game should reward the player for that accomplishment whereas the loot progression kicks u in the balls instead.  The long term plan addresses this, but just pointing it out in its current state.

 

[alanea]

One thing I do think should be done is lucky looter buff

well some people call it useless early but

lucky looter is extremely valuable for both parts  +25% to gamestage and 0,00s opening for 99% containers .. feels kinda fine to me

snd since its percentage it keeps same strenght for whole game (yes it adds  less on lower GS but every GS added have higherr impact on those levels)

the only questionable part is  1/5  on  low gamestage .. cant say i tested this  but 5% bonus might be rounded to  +0  GS?  ... anyay  its exactly perk that shorten  "stone /iron age"  so complainers around should love it

I think whats broken is clearing a high tier POI too early (exclude cheese clears...).  Although most of us don't do it, game should reward the player for that accomplishment whereas the loot progression kicks u in the balls instead.  The long term plan addresses this, but just pointing it out in its current state.

what acomplishmen you mean high tier poi are no harder than low tier poi if you go in on first week you wont meet single runner/greenie the only difference is lenght ... on other side poi like factory or dishong have quite alot crates along the way

so yeah its equally difficult to any other poi ... just not worth it  time wise .... as you probabnly have to spend night inside and lose all resources you could mine (unless you play on low difficulties / have death wish and want fight high amount of runners early

exception is waterworks ... but that one is ridiculously  short compared to both of mentioned

 

[Laz Man]

...what acomplishmen you mean high tier poi are no harder than low tier poi if you go in on first week you wont meet single runner/greenie the only difference is lenght ... on other side poi like factory or dishong have quite alot crates along the way

so yeah its equally difficult to any other poi ... just not worth it  time wise .... as you probabnly have to spend night inside and lose all resources you could mine (unless you play on low difficulties / have death wish and want fight high amount of runners early

exception is waterworks ... but that one is ridiculously  short compared to both of mentioned

Time investment is the kicker.  If the loot at the end of a T5 POI was better (not just higher quantity) it could be worth the time investment early game to plow through it.  Since a player can't farm T5 quests right away, it wouldnt be too OP imo.

Regardless of the low gamestage it still does take some skill for the average player to kill threw that many zeds and make it to the end at a low level and early game equip.

 

[Tmodloader]

Lucky looter increasing the amount of loot as well as gamestage and loot speed would be better