PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[Jost Amman]

@katarynna: I've got an answer to each of your questions, but I'm too lazy now and watching something... so just imagine I have a solution for each one of your issues and tell me if you endorse the concept. If not, it's futile for me writing a full page of text to reply.

 

[Pegasus]

The problem with quests is that they need some prerequisites to work, but those premises are different depending on the type.

1. Clear quests need all spawns/sleepers to be reset for them to work
   
2. Fetch quests need to place a satchel in an hidden compartment or block that must be still there
   

So when someone destroys the POI or kills the zombies in there the starting conditions are not valid anymore.

The most logical and realistic solution would be to treat quests like we'd do in a real situation.

If a POI has already been cleared the game must check that and exclude that POI from the list of "Clear" type quests.

At the same time, the Fetch quests, could work anyway, since you'd just have to place the satchel somewhere upon quest activation.

Using this approach you don't need to magically rebuild POIs upon quest activation, they will stay the same for the rest of the game.

Now the problem becomes that in MP games all POIs would at some point become looted and cleared.

We have several possible solutions to this:

1. The normal zombie respawn rate for sleepers will take care of the Clear type quests automatically (placed will be filled again after some time)
   
2. The normal loot respawn rate for containers will take care of the scarcity of loot in MP games (it already works like this)
   
3. We need a new type of quest called (i.e.) "Rebuild/Refurbish" where you are sent to a POI to repair it and will succeed only after you have repaired a number of blocks and furniture to their original status.
   

This way the quest activation marker will become just a normal quest-start point while the POIs will always be in the state the player/s left them (unless you rebuild them with the appropriate new quest type that is).

But where does logic apply to this world?  Why is it logical for loot to respawn?  Cabinets that were empty three days ago suddenly magically sprout more food?  Are you just really bad at looting?  Are you blind?  Did you somehow miss the cans in the cabinet?  Or a toilet that you took a gun from last week suddenly has another gun in it?  Is it a dimensional portal?  Is the gun fairy leaving guns in toilets?  Is the Zombie Easter Bunny hiding guns instead of eggs?

When you "almost die" you're somehow magically teleported back to a place where you set down a bedroll?  Where's the logic in that?

You can't figure out how to put a seed into dirt until you craft a farm plot?  What, the zombie germs in regular soil make it so seeds won't grow? I have a black thumb and i can even get potatoes to sprout.  I'm pretty sure the zombie apocalypse wouldn't stop that.

We suspend belief just to play this game.  It's not about "reality" and "logic".

Why are we making things harder than they need to be?  This game isn't about logic.  This game is supposed to be about having some form of fun.  I don't know about you, but I don't find looting places that are already looted or destroyed fun. And the zombies do plenty of damage on their own.

If you don't like the way the quests work .. don't do the quests.  No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to do quests.  Heck, you don't even have to do the starting quests if you don't want to.  

Why wreck something that other people enjoy just because you don't like the way they work?  Just don't do them.

 

[Tmodloader]

But where does logic apply to this world?  Why is it logical for loot to respawn?  Cabinets that were empty three days ago suddenly magically sprout more food?  Are you just really bad at looting?  Are you blind?  Did you somehow miss the cans in the cabinet?  Or a toilet that you took a gun from last week suddenly has another gun in it?  Is it a dimensional portal?  Is the gun fairy leaving guns in toilets?  Is the Zombie Easter Bunny hiding guns instead of eggs?

Are you implying that you're special? Scavenger set up camp there and died leaving behind some loot

 

[katarynna]

@Jost Amman i find the concept interesting. i am not trying to shoot down your idea, more just theorycrafting how to make it work for multiplayer,

it seems solid for sp and small-group coop, but seems like it would break questing on mp servers where people aren't all running together in a group.

I only play sp and coop with friends, so i have no problems either way lol. i just like brainstorming ideas that interest me, while hopefully giving you ideas of things that still need refining for your idea to work.

no need to write a thesis if you are not in the mood. i mostly just roll with whatever changes are made and adjust the game where needed so that i still have fun.

 

[STyK_]

One thing as a new player that made me incredibly frustrated was having a quest at a location that I had a chest set down and filled with items. I had no idea or indication that the quest would delete the chest and the entire inventory. That would be good to say somewhere for new players.

yep with no safety stopping poi's from resetting trying to settle in a poi is pretty much toast till enough complaining is done. Just wait it will be how people screw each other over on purpose in pvp. Only way around this I could see currently is building a wall around it and putting a landclaim down so other players can't reach the mission marker.  Then people will complain about that too.

 

[FileMachete]

Been thinking about the overall Food Mechanic in 7dtd, and contrasting it with Empyrions.

The main thing I kept coming back to as to why I preferred EGSs system was that RNG/pre-knowledge doesn't dictate progression.

To be fair EGSs system has alot more bits, so not having RNG be a big factor there might make sense while 7dtd can leverage RNG to up the difficulty. (not trying to make a 'designer' argument, just trying to provide a bit of info on EGS for those who don't know it).

So, just a thought but what if Corn, Potatoes and maybe Mushrooms were scarce but findable out in the wild?

Not as common as Aloe or Yukka, but more like the old Biome where there was occasionally a corn plant.

(and definately more common than Tree Stumps; I only found 6 TSs in a whole 90min day+ looking for them)

(maybe if the solo Snowberries had a 50% chance to be a Corn/Potato plant?)

This would provide an alternative for when RNG is being a pain.

Could also allow some loot/perk consolidation, if desired.

Could make 'Seed Crafting' just an inate skill, not a perk. Rationale being Canned food used to be basically low-mid tier, certainly good enough to use all game. That's really not the case anymore. Cooked foods are the new normal, not just a luxury, so Farming is also now a basic need (unless raw corn/potatos/etc get added to loot), and as such maybe the very basics shouldn't cost points.

Not saying the bonus harvests wouldn't still be 'farming' perks, and there's still gathering all the materials in order to make the farm plots, and gather the plants in the wild before you can make seeds and start a baby farm.

But could allow Seeds to be removed from loot tables, which might actually wind up making getting a farm going a bit harder.

Just seems a bit more in line with the extended Primative stage of things, and might feel a bit more natural progression wise.

Edit: Just to clarify, by 'wild' I mean out randomly in nature like the solo Snowberry bushes. Not dependent on a POI spawning.

 

[Pegasus]

yep with no safety stopping poi's from resetting trying to settle in a poi is pretty much toast till enough complaining is done. Just wait it will be how people screw each other over on purpose in pvp. Only way around this I could see currently is building a wall around it and putting a landclaim down so other players can't reach the mission marker.  Then people will complain about that too.

Putting a bedroll down stops quests from being activated, which stops the POIs from being reset.  So if you want to claim a POI, drop down a bedroll and it can't be reset.

 It's already an issue on an MP server ... but many MP servers actually have rules that you cannot claim an existing POI just for this reason.  In SP or small group COOP it's not an issue since claiming one POI out of however many are on the map isn't going to be a problem.

 

[Tmodloader]

So, just a thought but what if Corn, Potatoes and maybe Mushrooms were scarce but findable out in the wild?

I read they can be already if you know where to look, I've definitely found mushrooms in the wild myself and corn. 

Putting a bedroll down stops quests from being activated.  It's already an issue on an MP server ... but many MP servers actually have rules that you cannot claim an existing POI just for this reason.  In SP or small group COOP it's not an issue since claiming one POI out of however many are on the map isn't going to be a problem.

Still would be nice if there was some indicator in game for this for new players or someone that just has a lapse of thought and made a mistake

 

[katarynna]

(unless raw corn/potatos/etc get added to loot)

they already are added to loot. especially shamway crates often give corn, potatoes, blueberries, etc.

you can also find all of them in the world. there are new pois in a19 that look like a park with a fountain in the middle. those have all the farm crops growing there. blueberries grow wild in the snow biome. mushrooms grow often in cave pois. and there are farm pois for corn and potatoes.

and i find most of my seeds in trash for some reason, but yeah, the seeds are lootable as well. 

 

[Pegasus]

I read they can be already if you know where to look, I've definitely found mushrooms in the wild myself and corn. 

Still would be nice if there was some indicator in game for this for new players or someone that just has a lapse of thought and made a mistake

Agreed.  It's listed in the forums from when quests were first discussed, but it would be nice if that was added to the information notes they give you.

 

[FileMachete]

I read they can be already if you know where to look, I've definitely found mushrooms in the wild myself and corn.

Really? Cool beans if so then.

they already are added to loot. especially shamway crates often give corn, potatoes, blueberries, etc.

huh, ok. Blueberries I recall looting, and Corn Meal. Guess I've just been blind to the others, heh.

And was aware of the small fields for Corn/Potatos/Blueberries, but those are POIs.

I'll edit my post to add-->Just to clarify, by 'wild' I mean out randomly in nature like the solo Snowberry bushes.

 

[STyK_]

Putting a bedroll down stops quests from being activated, which stops the POIs from being reset.  So if you want to claim a POI, drop down a bedroll and it can't be reset.

 It's already an issue on an MP server ... but many MP servers actually have rules that you cannot claim an existing POI just for this reason.  In SP or small group COOP it's not an issue since claiming one POI out of however many are on the map isn't going to be a problem.

I didn't know about the bedroll, thats good, I withdraw that first part. The rest however, it would be a nightmare to be in a tower halfway though or near the top with your munitions nearly spent and someone resets the tower. If your bedroll is stopping respawns at your base it can't be at the tower too. Could be done by accident on pve, could be done on purpose in pvp.

 

[Jost Amman]

If a POI has already been cleared the game must check that and exclude that POI from the list of "Clear" type quests.

Not everyone does quests as soon as they pick them up. Would you have it so that if someone has accepted a clear quest, no one else can accept a clear quest for that poi? what if the person who accepted a clear quest never logs back on to that server? there are not that many t5 quest poi's, and removing them forever from the quest pool if someone accepts it and never completes it is a bad thing imo.

The check would be made when you talk with the trader, so if at that time the POI has still zombies inside, then you're eligible to get the quest.

I don't play MP so I don't know how it works now when the trader assigns quests to different people for the same POI...

At the same time, the Fetch quests, could work anyway, since you'd just have to place the satchel somewhere upon quest activation.

If the poi is clear of zombies, the fetch quests would be a snooze fest. just run to the swprite and grab the satchel. no combat, no loot.

Like in real life... if someone else cleared the POI for you all the better!

In all the commotion they simply couldn't spot the satchel. 

The normal loot respawn rate for containers will take care of the scarcity of loot in MP games (it already works like this)

as long as no one gets close enough to the containers to reset the loot respawn timer. 

The problem there is the loot respawn reset, not my idea. IMO they should change THAT mechanic to work better because now as now it's a real problem for MP in general.

We need a new type of quest called (i.e.) "Rebuild/Refurbish" where you are sent to a POI to repair it and will succeed only after you have repaired a number of blocks and furniture to their original status.

a lot of the deco items are not craftable or lootable, and are never going to be in vanilla. how would you replace the destroyed items?

And just in general, i am assuming you also expect the game to check the possible quest poi's to see if they are currently populated with zombies and if they are still in a repaired/furnished state. Will this have a performance impact and if so, how much of one?

In my mind I pictured something like "predetermined blocks" that you'd need to repair or build, not "real" ones.

The idea is that you go inside that POI and see some of the blocks as a "contour" that you need to hit with your tools to fix/build them back.

It would also be a nice quest for the more peaceful type of players, since it would only entail the travelling time and the building effort.  :frusty:  

As for the check it's a question only the devs could answer, but for the rebuild quests you wouldn't need to check if there are zombies in there, it's just an additional risk you have to take when you accept the mission. Clearing the POI would just be an additional objective before rebuilding.

So... as you can see I found the inspiration to reply to all your questions since you were nice lol

Putting a bedroll down stops quests from being activated.  It's already an issue on an MP server ... but many MP servers actually have rules that you cannot claim an existing POI just for this reason.  In SP or small group COOP it's not an issue since claiming one POI out of however many are on the map isn't going to be a problem.

Still would be nice if there was some indicator in game for this for new players or someone that just has a lapse of thought and made a mistake

If they use my idea which is about never resetting POIs then the indicator/message wouldn't be needed anymore. 

 

[Doctor3D]

There is a challenge you can get from the 'Willie gang' thats apparently had their eye on you to nail chicks, you get exp for completing. Other then that so far the shooting nails is kind of useless. There are other challenges as well, you find them in loot.

I shoot the nails while building. I will sometimes build with something cheap like wood and will then paint it to get an idea how it will look. Then after it's all built the way I want, I upgrade it and fully paint it. But if it's a big structure or real life days have went by since I messed with it - I'll walk around and shoot the nail at the blocks  to see what level it is - and upgrade the ones that haven't been. It's a quick way to see the level of a painted block, and usually only does about 1 damage.  I specifically do that instead of accidentally upgrading a block to steel when i'm trying to save steel bars and only upgrade the most vulnerable ones to steel and the rest concrete.

 

[STyK_]

I shoot the nails while building. I will sometimes build with something cheap like wood and will then paint it to get an idea how it will look. Then after it's all built the way I want, I upgrade it and fully paint it. But if it's a big structure or real life days have went by since I messed with it - I'll walk around and shoot the nail at the blocks  to see what level it is - and upgrade the ones that haven't been. It's a quick way to see the level of a painted block, and usually only does about 1 damage. 

Thats good you've found a use for it! most people would want more out of a mechanic though. Its not ideal for a pistol fillin and you can't get it till way late in the game so thats out the window.

After I posted that I actually envisioned myself using it for snap shooting target practice in my base waiting for things to finish crafting. Paint a bulleye, ammos cheap, I wonder if the nails stick like arrows. If I ever find it again I'll likely try, RP reasons.

 

[morggin]

Just save them and don't consume them when you find them.
At 3 POIs I found a lot of pea cans

All my peas go to catching polar bears.   I chop a hole in the ice, surround it with peas, then when the polar bear come to take a pea, I give him a good swift kick in the ice hole.

 

[Adam the Waster]

All my peas go to catching polar bears.   I chop a hole in the ice, surround it with peas, then when the polar bear come to take a pea, I give him a good swift kick in the ice hole.

Damn. and i though i was Crazy!

 

[morggin]

Damn. and i though i was Crazy!

Well ... I did just earn the Meet Your Maker 

 

[Adam the Waster]

Well ... I did just earn the Meet Your Maker 

View attachment 12912

same here!

had it for a while though

 

[STyK_]

Well ... I did just earn the Meet Your Maker 

View attachment 12912

damn, I just got the 100 achievement after streamer weekend. I want these though, thats why I want pvp to be better.