PC Stamina is a @%$*#!, BUT ...

[Gideon]

only if you do a lot of mining.

SP you probably will.

MP  maybe not.  Other fellow in my one game, isn't going mining, he took the farm stuff.  I took mining and cookery.

Yep. I play exclusively with some friends, so it doesn't bother me any. Need to add that disclaimer to a signature on my posts, as someone mentions group play EVERY time I say something.

 

[FileMachete]

Just my .02 cents with only having made it through day 10 of 1 game in a19.

While Stamina is managable, the Food/Drink/Time cost versus the rewards when running or mining are nuts so far.

I was walking everywhere to save on food, boring. Made a Bike morning of day 4. Forgot how slow they are when not sprinting, and the small storage. Made a Minibike day 6. (City the starter quest sent me to is in snow, so lots of traveling compared to most of my starts)

Day 10, lvl 12, relocating to a different city, taking over collapsed building, clearing 200hp rubble blocks so zeds can't get to 2nd floor. 1 point in Miner69er/Sexrex, T5 Stone Axe with purchased gravedigger mod does a whopping 25 damage. With Tea, Grilled Meat (have used all eggs) and a couple Bacon & Eggs I can swing that stone axe basically non-stop, but it's so boring to peck away 8 times to break one of the weakest blocks in the game.

I briefly, very briefly, considered knocking out the double-wide concrete stairs. Maths saved me. Concrete has 2500hps, so it would take 100 pecks, per block, and would need to knock out 6. Mama didn't raise no fools.

What I guess I'm missing is what is gained by these changes?

Say that axe did 75 damage instead. Rather than spending about 11 in-game hours clearing rubble I would have spent less than 4. Or could have spent the same 11 hours but had 3x the Stone. So 1 stack of stone instead of ~2000. So what. Still need a Forge, smelting/crafting time, then need a Mixer to finally have some concrete mix. What's the issue with that?

A17 and on have generally taught players to take over a strong POI rather than build a base out of the gate. Not saying it's impossible, but other than cheese bases a player built horde night base for day 7/14 is pretty much a boring 5x5x4 block with a wooden bar overhang.

So I took over a Lathams Hardware, which has concrete walls for initial base, first horde barely scratched the paint. 2nd base has concrete supports and brick walls. I'm not worried about day 14 or 21 hordes, in either of these.

Point being, even if mining was like a18.4, what was the harm with it? Players got too many materials? Maybe too much iron/nit/coal? But too much stone/clay/sand... what now? How is that an issue? Because players were building bases instead of remodelling?

Last bit. How would a brand new player evolve? Sure they can shovel cement/cobblestone from pois for some materials, but not near enough to build anything interesting, unless there are some new in a19, -T1-2- pois that have just boat loads of mats that I've yet to see. Why would they ever even begin to build a new structure? There was already the time sink of mining, and the point cost, but at least you'd get enough materials to then be able to build something from scratch.

Now pretty much every game mechanic is screaming at a new player not to do it. High Food/Drink cost. High Time cost. Low rewards. No Equip/Un-Equip button for Armor. Many hours in-game play time before Iron tools might show in loot, plus they'll take a big portion of points to be able to use them effciently. Meanwhile there are all the shinys that a new player will be dreaming of, like Pack Mule, weapon perks, armor perks, etc.

Just seems to me that the A19 'generation' of players will look at old timers trying to build even smallish bases from scratch and just shake their heads, mumble, "sad to see those old folks wasting all their time trying to do that..." "must be senile I guess"

Edit: just read Lisels post on stamina while mining in heavy armor, then read the bug report where response was that mining in armor doesn't increase stamina cost. I was going off of several MM posts where he was telling players to not wear their armor when mining.

https://community.7daystodie.com/bug-test-1/not-a-bug/a19-b141-armor-doesnt-reduce-stamina-regeneration-while-digging-r713/

 

[Jugginator]

Last bit. How would a brand new player evolve? Sure they can shovel cement/cobblestone from pois for some materials, but not near enough to build anything interesting, unless there are some new in a19, -T1-2- pois that have just boat loads of mats that I've yet to see. Why would they ever even begin to build a new structure? There was already the time sink of mining, and the point cost, but at least you'd get enough materials to then be able to build something from scratch.

Just seems to me that the A19 'generation' of players will look at old timers trying to build even smallish bases from scratch and just shake their heads, mumble, "sad to see those old folks wasting all their time trying to do that..." "must be senile I guess"

Idk, with increased difficulty (i.e., blood moon spawning, difficulty, increasing the run speeds), having a base (no I never build cheese bases ever) is pretty vital to keep your resources down/keep from having to move every week. Once you bump difficulties up POIs don't last very long (and the larger ones take more prep-work time than what's needed to build something). I pick a POI for the first 2 hordes and after that it's base time because that POI is about gone; and you don't need to mine for resources, those piles of stuff (wood,stone,cobblestone,cement) you find in POIs really give you most of what you need and is generally overlooked by the "old timers". Really I'd say mining is only for larger MP maps where everyone is building insane over-the-top huge bases.

 

[FileMachete]

and you don't need to mine for resources, those piles of stuff (wood,stone,cobblestone,cement) you find in POIs really give you most of what you need and is generally overlooked by the "old timers"

I'm honestly not sure about that yet. And could well be a simple difference in what scale we're talking about. From what I've seen POI wise in a19 so far it looks like they've shoehorned Cobble/Cement into a lot of places, and in quantities, that are just weird. To me at least. I could see large amounts in say a Bobs Builders POI, or redo the Hardware Stores (haven't been in a larger one, maybe they have) to be an adundant source. But why would a Shamway have a bunch? And I know real life experiance is a hinderance, but you order concrete trucks when pouring even a small houses foundation. Now if the in-process-of-being-built house pois had Brick walls, instead of wood framed, then having a pallet of cement would make sense, for mortar to lay brick.

Storyline wise if the Shamway was being reinforced due to fear of what was coming, then you'd expect that any government building would already have barricades, fencing, etc. in place, but nothings been done.

Along with large do-it-yourself pois like home depot/lowes, they could add readi-mix sites where the concrete trucks get filled, or a concrete block manufacturing business. There's one about 5 miles from where I live, it has hundreds of thousands of various blocks in their yard, and it's also a concrete maker/supplier. I'd say it has enough concrete stuff on site to build a 4+ story arpartment building.

Maybe stuff like that will be added. Wouldn't bother me if they did.

But what I don't understand is why make mining so difficult? Especially if they're going to put cobble/cement pallets everywhere? Having two fairly equitable routes, sure, options are good. But why make one so much harder, especially when that one has been a major activity for a long time, and is one of the few productive things to do at night, in a game where the devs push "time management".

Beyond 'Time', Mining is also a point sink, and now a Food/Drink sink as well, so it supports the devs goals of, "hard choices". Making it very un-attractive just encourages players to skip mining all together, further supported by pallets everywhere, which makes the game easier, simpler & nights boring.

What's the upside supposed to be?

---

Anyway.. I appreciate the comment Jug, and definately appreciate that it's thoughful and brings up valid points/counter-views.

 

[meganoth]

I'm honestly not sure about that yet. And could well be a simple difference in what scale we're talking about. From what I've seen POI wise in a19 so far it looks like they've shoehorned Cobble/Cement into a lot of places, and in quantities, that are just weird. To me at least. I could see large amounts in say a Bobs Builders POI, or redo the Hardware Stores (haven't been in a larger one, maybe they have) to be an adundant source. But why would a Shamway have a bunch? And I know real life experiance is a hinderance, but you order concrete trucks when pouring even a small houses foundation. Now if the in-process-of-being-built house pois had Brick walls, instead of wood framed, then having a pallet of cement would make sense, for mortar to lay brick.

Storyline wise if the Shamway was being reinforced due to fear of what was coming, then you'd expect that any government building would already have barricades, fencing, etc. in place, but nothings been done.

Along with large do-it-yourself pois like home depot/lowes, they could add readi-mix sites where the concrete trucks get filled, or a concrete block manufacturing business. There's one about 5 miles from where I live, it has hundreds of thousands of various blocks in their yard, and it's also a concrete maker/supplier. I'd say it has enough concrete stuff on site to build a 4+ story arpartment building.

Maybe stuff like that will be added. Wouldn't bother me if they did.

But what I don't understand is why make mining so difficult? Especially if they're going to put cobble/cement pallets everywhere? Having two fairly equitable routes, sure, options are good. But why make one so much harder, especially when that one has been a major activity for a long time, and is one of the few productive things to do at night, in a game where the devs push "time management".

Beyond 'Time', Mining is also a point sink, and now a Food/Drink sink as well, so it supports the devs goals of, "hard choices". Making it very un-attractive just encourages players to skip mining all together, further supported by pallets everywhere, which makes the game easier, simpler & nights boring.

What's the upside supposed to be?

---

Anyway.. I appreciate the comment Jug, and definately appreciate that it's thoughful and brings up valid points/counter-views.

The upside is that only mining brings materials in larger quantities. If you are content to build up your small base in small steps and conserve ammo you get along with what you find in POIs. 

Want a big base that has 50% more wall thickness, a fallback base that holds off the horde for hours even if demos make an unexpected hole in your first base at 10:30, want ammo in heaps even though you use ranged in every POI? Well, be a miner.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I'm honestly not sure about that yet. And could well be a simple difference in what scale we're talking about. From what I've seen POI wise in a19 so far it looks like they've shoehorned Cobble/Cement into a lot of places, and in quantities, that are just weird. To me at least. I could see large amounts in say a Bobs Builders POI, or redo the Hardware Stores (haven't been in a larger one, maybe they have) to be an adundant source. But why would a Shamway have a bunch? And I know real life experiance is a hinderance, but you order concrete trucks when pouring even a small houses foundation. Now if the in-process-of-being-built house pois had Brick walls, instead of wood framed, then having a pallet of cement would make sense, for mortar to lay brick.

Took me awhile to find this image. They may have changed this POI for A19. This was A18... but this is just an attic:

Also, notice this a mission. These materials respawn.

 

[FileMachete]

The upside is that only mining brings materials in larger quantities. If you are content to build up your small base in small steps and conserve ammo you get along with what you find in POIs. 

Want a big base that has 50% more wall thickness, a fallback base that holds off the horde for hours even if demos make an unexpected hole in your first base at 10:30, want ammo in heaps even though you use ranged in every POI? Well, be a miner.

Okay, so the pallets in POIs are not intended to 'replace' mining. But, guessing, to allow non-miners/major-builders to have ready access to some materials to say reinforce/block a pois windows/doors?

That's pretty much what I took them for in a17 & a18.

Do you have any insight on why a19's early game mining is so punishing?

Edit: thanks for the pic @AtomicUs5000 , that's damn funny. Every bag weighs at least 90 pounds so that much would crush the house below, lol (but yeah, I know, 'realism' heh heh)

Looks like 20+ cement pallets so maybe a thousand+? So with a Mixer, and 1000 Stone & 1000 Sand then you'd get enough concrete mix for 100 blocks, or 50 reinforced-concrete blocks. Pretty good haul.

 

[Jugginator]

Spoiler

I'm honestly not sure about that yet. And could well be a simple difference in what scale we're talking about. From what I've seen POI wise in a19 so far it looks like they've shoehorned Cobble/Cement into a lot of places, and in quantities, that are just weird. To me at least. I could see large amounts in say a Bobs Builders POI, or redo the Hardware Stores (haven't been in a larger one, maybe they have) to be an adundant source. But why would a Shamway have a bunch? And I know real life experiance is a hinderance, but you order concrete trucks when pouring even a small houses foundation. Now if the in-process-of-being-built house pois had Brick walls, instead of wood framed, then having a pallet of cement would make sense, for mortar to lay brick.

But what I don't understand is why make mining so difficult? Especially if they're going to put cobble/cement pallets everywhere? Having two fairly equitable routes, sure, options are good. But why make one so much harder, especially when that one has been a major activity for a long time, and is one of the few productive things to do at night, in a game where the devs push "time management"

Well, it may not always make sense but those abundant stockpiles in places like the Shamway are - I assume anyway - for the non-miners and for supplemental usages. Instead of mining being the ONLY way to get resources, you can scavenge from POIs. The reason for harder mining, again derived from playing an absolute ton of A19 runs in testing, is to balance it out. In all other alphas, one could easily have concrete bases by the first horde night etc. Now they made that to be more of a specialized thing and there's the resources from the POIs. There are a ton of houses and construction sites, barns out there that have them in them, not just the builder poi and hardware stores/shamway. If you really want to make crazy structures or need more, you should be able to spec into mining, which then, you can mine for a long time with steel tools/get a lot of resources fast. Early-mid game = scavenge, mid-endgame=mine/scavenge.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Edit: thanks for the pic @AtomicUs5000 , that's damn funny. Every bag weighs at least 90 pounds so that much would crush the house below, lol (but yeah, I know, 'realism' heh heh)

Looks like 20+ cement pallets so maybe a thousand+? So with a Mixer, and 1000 Stone & 1000 Sand then you'd get enough concrete mix for 100 blocks, or 50 reinforced-concrete blocks. Pretty good haul.

I have to see if I can find it again. I'm curious if they changed it because I pointed this out quite some time ago.
I might be better off going through the POIs one at a time in the editor until I do.
Anyway, yeah... it was essentially the source of mats for my base. It came up several times through the trader and I just made sure to grab it all each time.

By the way, I must say that while it was funny and I did make use of those materials during that game, it quickly diminished the amount of fun I was having.
Some people hate mining, especially when there is a stamina struggle involved... but when it's replaced by the game just handing things to you like this, you kinda learn to appreciate it more. I was able to focus more on other things, other things that a lot of people would consider more fun than mining... but in the end, I was left feeling empty and unsatisfied with my accomplishments. 

 

[FileMachete]

Solid points as usual @meganoth, @Jugginator. Could be I'm a self-victim of "old think".

Or maybe just remembering when getting a forge wasn't a day one thing.

And finding early game nights just damn boring without having a mine to start stocking materials.

(sigh)

I should probably stop taking what MM says so literally, it's giving me serious whiplash, heh.

MM-> hate pointless grinding. Me-> what the heck is a19 early mining then?

MM-> don't like overly complicated mechanics. Me-> err, what are all the food/drink buffs, candies, etc, etc... even RL isn't this complicated

And MM recently answered a question I asked him about his thoughts on having/using reloadable ammo magazines for firearms in a game, he said, "Not something I'd want to play."

Anyway.. rather than open up the can of worms of Augers costing stamina in the near future (and MM pulled the realism card himself on that one), along with more gas than a bulldozer would consume, or why the engines we salvage from a car even fit into an auger (or 6 into a small home generator, and there only provide 50 Watts 0_o which is two small light bulbs).

I'll just leave it with; there are quick ways to balance down amounts of Shale/Nit/Coal/Iron harvested by stone axes. If that's by chance the major concern. The Pallets remove the Forge as a step to getting Concrete Mix, but the Mixer is still required, so that's an easy target for gating Concrete Mix early game, and wouldn't impact making Iron Ingots, iron arrowheads, etc in the forge. Just seems, to me, that early game mining filled a useful spot, and if it's returns wound up being OP'd then there seem to be other ways to address that, while still supporting the activity itself.

P.s. not intending to beat up on MM. He certainly is allowed to change his mind, rethink designs, etc., and certainly doesn't owe us explanations along the way.

Edit: and forgot to say thanks again for the mature replies and counter points!

 

[Reckis]

Personally I think that the pallets of cobblestone and cement are placeholders, they dont currently have the models for the things that are actually going to be there. They are putting them in locations where you would expect to find pallets of stuff, but not necessarily cobble or cement, until the assets that will be there in gold are completed. Perhaps we will see pallets of materials that are more appropriate to the poi in a later alpha or come gold. With the way some people @%$*#! about new models being added to the game (as opposed to other changes they want to see), it is no wonder.

 

[FA_Q2]

For me I think it was done to flush out the perk system more and make each tree more unique in its approach.  If you do not delve into strength then mining becomes tedious and pointless.  If you do then it is a massive source of mats.  

The only problem I have is that strength and int seem to me to be far more valuable than the other trees.  This change makes str that much more valuable.