PC console updates rethink - sign petition

[meganoth]

It says "to regain control" this was after telltales closure, this was what they said in reference to the future, if they intended to partner back with IG they should have said that not this, this implies that they (TFP) were going to continue to support the console version. 

"regain control" is about the property and publishing rights on console for 7d2d. I have never got the slightest hint that TFP would ever do any console work themselves.

For example, before they could have commissioned any console developer (either IG or someone else) to continue the work on the version that IG had partly finished, they needed the rights to those sources. They couldn't just take the work of IG and give it to someone else if they don't own them. They also needed the publishing rights for console and rights to the already published game so they could publish an update to that game. But there never was a need for TFP to do the porting themselves.

 

[Ralco]

"regain control" is about the property and publishing rights on console for 7d2d. I have never got the slightest hint that TFP would ever do any console work themselves.

For example, before they could have commissioned any console developer (either IG or someone else) to continue the work on the version that IG had partly finished, they needed the rights to those sources. They couldn't just take the work of IG and give it to someone else if they don't own them. They also needed the publishing rights for console and rights to the already published game so they could publish an update to that game. But there never was a need for TFP to do the porting themselves.

They never didnt have the console rights, they say as much themselves. They terminated their agreement as soon as telltale went under, they made the statement in the quote I shared that they wanted those rights back to continue supporting the console version. Not to maybe eventually someday release another game. Now suddenly the current gen cant handle updates when telltale never had an issue getting us updates. If we take everything they have said since the whole issue started they have never had a clear plan nor a clear statement.

 

[meganoth]

They never didnt have the console rights, they say as much themselves. They terminated their agreement as soon as telltale went under, they made the statement in the quote I shared that they wanted those rights back to continue supporting the console version. Not to maybe eventually someday release another game. Now suddenly the current gen cant handle updates when telltale never had an issue getting us updates. If we take everything they have said since the whole issue started they have never had a clear plan nor a clear statement.

This "terminating the agreement" was always something I wanted to know more about. Because normally one party in a contract can't usually just say "stop". If both agree to terminate there is no problem. But for one side to be able to do it needs either a clause in the contract that allows that OR that the other party of the contract violated the contract.

My theory is that TFP thought the bankrupty would automatically violate the contract and they sued for that or tried to negotiate with that in mind. But they failed in this and therefore had to buy back the rights at the auction instead. 

And yes, I don't expect them to have had a clear plan at the outset. They are no lawyers and thought regaining the rights would be much easier, they probably had no detailed knowledge of the stuff IG was programming, they had no financial details of what Telltale was paying IG for the porting and no details of other costs. They might have had some info on the earnings on console as they probably got some percentage of the earnings, but thats it.

 

[Ralco]

This "terminating the agreement" was always something I wanted to know more about. Because normally one party in a contract can't usually just say "stop". If both agree to terminate there is no problem. But for one side to be able to do it needs either a clause in the contract that allows that OR that the other party of the contract violated the contract.

My theory is that TFP thought the bankrupty would automatically violate the contract and they sued for that or tried to negotiate with that in mind. But they failed in this and therefore had to buy back the rights at the auction instead. 

And yes, I don't expect them to have had a clear plan at the outset. They are no lawyers and thought regaining the rights would be much easier, they probably had no detailed knowledge of the stuff IG was programming, they had no financial details of what Telltale was paying IG for the porting and no details of other costs. They might have had some info on the earnings on console as they probably got some percentage of the earnings, but thats it.

The rights weren't sold at auction, or if they were there was never any confirmed report of that. And all you have to do is Google telltales highest earning games, 7dtd is 2nd on that list, if tfp cant operate google that's on them, yes it's not a clear number but 4 million (new) copies sold isn't nothing, a player base of 15k-20k isnt nothing, they should not be thinking of selling us yet another port when they already proved they dont care about this one, at the end of the day their response boils down to "thanks for your money buy our crap again in 2 years" as if they have the capacity to actually go gold that quick. 20% of their development staff is already working on a new IP, they can split the dev team to work on a new game but not to fix the one they already sold. And yes they're pc devs but a one trick pony doesnt last long after the shows over. This current business model they're using isnt viable they cant keep enough players on pc to even make the game worth it, if 15k on the low end isnt enough then why do they work through the 8k months on pc? 

 

[meganoth]

The rights weren't sold at auction, or if they were there was never any confirmed report of that. And all you have to do is Google telltales highest earning games, 7dtd is 2nd on that list, if tfp cant operate google that's on them, yes it's not a clear number but 4 million (new) copies sold isn't nothing, a player base of 15k-20k isnt nothing, they should not be thinking of selling us yet another port when they already proved they dont care about this one, at the end of the day their response boils down to "thanks for your money buy our crap again in 2 years" as if they have the capacity to actually go gold that quick. 20% of their development staff is already working on a new IP, they can split the dev team to work on a new game but not to fix the one they already sold. And yes they're pc devs but a one trick pony doesnt last long after the shows over. This current business model they're using isnt viable they cant keep enough players on pc to even make the game worth it, if 15k on the low end isnt enough then why do they work through the 8k months on pc? 

I did say they probably know what the earnings were. So what? For a clear picture you need earnings and costs. And then you need to make projections what your future costs and earnings are when you go with some plan.

I know lots of PC developers whose business model is quite viable even without console.

The 20% that work on a new IP? Never heard of that. All the developers I know from their forum activity seem still involved in 7D2D.

 

[Ralco]

I did say they probably know what the earnings were. So what? For a clear picture you need earnings and costs. And then you need to make projections what your future costs and earnings are when you go with some plan.

I know lots of PC developers whose business model is quite viable even without console.

The 20% that work on a new IP? Never heard of that. All the developers I know from their forum activity seem still involved in 7D2D.

This is specifically a 7dtd forum, naturally the devs here are working on 7dtd and they didnt technically say 20% is working on the new game just that 80% are currently working on 7dtd. Also most companies factor in cost before saying a game earned X amount. That would be silly otherwise. 

 

[meganoth]

This is specifically a 7dtd forum, naturally the devs here are working on 7dtd and they didnt technically say 20% is working on the new game just that 80% are currently working on 7dtd. Also most companies factor in cost before saying a game earned X amount. That would be silly otherwise. 

Sorry, english is not my first language. But my dictionary tells me the word "earnings" is used to mean revenue as well as profit. To be clear, I meant revenue when I said earnings.

And I don't see how TFP could get an accurate picture of profits or costs by just looking at the 4 million copies sold or some list with 7D2D being Nr.2 in profits. 

Most game companies neither publish revenue nor profit of their games. 

 

[Ralco]

Sorry, english is not my first language. But my dictionary tells me the word "earnings" is used to mean revenue as well as profit. And I don't see how TFP could get an accurate picture from the costs Telltale has to play by just looking at the 4 million copies sold or some list with 7D2D being Nr.2. 

Most game companies neither publish revenue nor profit of their games. 

Oh okay so typically when we say "earnings" in English it means money earned after initial cost is regained, it's used almost interchangeably with profit in that regard, so when I say it was their second highest earner it made the second most money after the initial investment was recouped. This is a tricky word because you do have some companies who try to say " it earned x-millions of dollars" when they actually lost 50 million. You run I to this issue alot in retail where the company tries to pretend they're profiting while actually losing money.

 

[Ralco]

No. The site is correct and you are not. This is actually an issue that TFP will hopefully be able to resolve. The reason that TellTale is listed as the publishers is because they are the publisher of that version in the stores. No subsequent version was ever published and TFP are not console publishers. Getting the rights to their game does not make them publishers. It does allow them to license their IP out to a new publisher in the future if they want to bring the full PC version to the next gen consoles.

In the future, they will not be publishing the next console game. They will partner with a console publisher as they did with Telltale in order to make it all happen. TFP is a PC game studio period. They have not been, are not now, and will not be the publishers of the console version of 7 Days to Die. Since it was always Telltale that dealt with Microsoft and Sony stores, TFP will have to make contact and work through making the changes.

An update specifically on this front, the microsoft store at least has an updated listing with tfp as the publisher, what this means exactly is unknown just thought I'd pass on this tidbit

 

[jyd85224]

Wow... I'm with Jade!

Mods threatening to close the forum Again, I have been playing and supporting this game since the beginning, Sylen has been rude since 2016, nothing new. 

I love that it's said where do they get the money for updates, then a few posts later... they will lower the price when it's sales slow down...  So still making money? The fact that we are still talking shows interest, intrest mean new sales. I'm sure the 30 I spent years ago is long used up, but they still have PC sales and console sales providing revenue today. Put out a 10 dollar DLC with new stuff and bug fixes, is what I want, but anything is better then nothing and that is we have now. If you refuse to do anything there needs to be disclaimer saying you get half the PC world and your hours of work can be rest to original blocks.

 

[Roland]

tfp as the publisher

Wow. I don’t know what to make of that. I’ll have to ask. That is interesting. 

 

[alden666]

I think a major problem for the Fun Pimps' position is that they are not even trying anymore at the present to update the console version.

The mods here say that the console versions cannot be updated anymore past alpha 16, but how do they even know this? They don't. Even we, those who want the console updated, don't. The Fun Pimps should just contact another game company which does console ports to see if it can or cannot be done, and that if it can be done (partially or fully), find out and tell us how much funding would it need and be transparent of the details of the discussion so we can eliminate any speculation from both sides of the argument if it can be technically and fiscally done.

What's pissing me off is that the company seem to want to just stop trying, sit on their hands for two or so years until the PC version is finished, and then do something after all that. What we want is for them to make at least an effort to do update the game.

 

[Ralco]

Wow. I don’t know what to make of that. I’ll have to ask. That is interesting. 

I checked on it not a week ago and dont remember if it was like that so this might be a recent change or I just missed it.

 

[SylenThunder]

I think a major problem for the Fun Pimps' position is that they are not even trying anymore at the present to update the console version.

The mods here say that the console versions cannot be updated anymore past alpha 16, but how do they even know this? They don't. Even we, those who want the console updated, don't. The Fun Pimps should just contact another game company which does console ports to see if it can or cannot be done, and that if it can be done (partially or fully), find out and tell us how much funding would it need and be transparent of the details of the discussion so we can eliminate any speculation from both sides of the argument if it can be technically and fiscally done.

What's pissing me off is that the company seem to want to just stop trying, sit on their hands for two or so years until the PC version is finished, and then do something after all that. What we want is for them to make at least an effort to do update the game.

We know because we've gone from a16 to a17. The entire way worlds are managed changed, which would require a full wipe of the world. Progression was completely re-worked, so you characters would get wiped. Because the old save data is no longer compatible with the new system.

This alone means that Sony and Microsoft will not allow it. Since TellTale billed the game as complete, they are unable to push an update that would depreciate current save data and force a wipe. If TellTale had properly listed the game as a Alpha port, then this wouldn't be an issue.

That's not even getting into the bits where your console hardware doesn't meet the gameplay specs on newer versions though. Your hardware will struggle greatly to maintain a playable FPS without severe stuttering and freezes. I cover this in detail in the Sitcky.

 

[Nef]

We know because we've gone from a16 to a17. The entire way worlds are managed changed, which would require a full wipe of the world. Progression was completely re-worked, so you characters would get wiped. Because the old save data is no longer compatible with the new system.

This alone means that Sony and Microsoft will not allow it. Since TellTale billed the game as complete, they are unable to push an update that would depreciate current save data and force a wipe. If TellTale had properly listed the game as a Alpha port, then this wouldn't be an issue.

That's not even getting into the bits where your console hardware doesn't meet the gameplay specs on newer versions though. Your hardware will struggle greatly to maintain a playable FPS without severe stuttering and freezes. I cover this in detail in the Sitcky.

I see someone on Reddit is quoting you, lol. Two people arguing about the port. Lotta people just don't understand it actually can't run on the hardware. The hardware's the issue, not the game's code. Even after gold optimizations the last gen still wouldn't be able to handle the new engine and stuff. It barely handled previous alphas, and I don't know if I count "25fps on medium graphics with one base" as "handling it." 

"Which is kinda pathetic since it is just a Unity game. What are they doing wrong with their code if it can't run on modern gen systems."

"It has nothing to do with their code, it's the hardware itself. It's the same reason why Space Engineers on PC has 16 to 124 player servers, but on Xbox, it's only capable of 2 player co-op, 4 if you use split screen on two Xbox One X's, the souped up version of the console. This also took them 7 years to achieve.

The hardware simply isn't capable of handling an entire dynamic world. It simply doesn't have enough RAM or a CPU to keep up. 8GB is the absolute bare minimum to run this game, on top of that, Microsoft uses an archaic offshoot of FAT32 (2001) for its modern memory in the Xbox, which is a huge reason for all the MD5 errors still present on that system. That file allocation system is just not capable of running 7 Days.

"But CoD runs at 60FPS on Ultra on Xbox!" Yes, and CoD is a game that is 99% static, with the only things being computed are player models moving, and some particle effects from explosions and stuff. Deformation are just scripted animations, like a car exploding and being replaced with a dead car model. (hitscan is hitscan, no projectile calculations like Battlefield)

Games lik 7 Days, SE, are dynamic, real-time, physics calculations, going on, at all times. The game is making sure the entire world is doing what it needs to be doing at any given time, even that dirt block below your feet. It's also not spaghetti code. This ain't no Yandere Simulator if else party."

(This goes on for paragraphs and paragraphs, but at the end they added your quote about saves cause the person was arguing if the dev was competent the saves would work.)

 

[alden666]

We know because we've gone from a16 to a17. The entire way worlds are managed changed, which would require a full wipe of the world. Progression was completely re-worked, so you characters would get wiped. Because the old save data is no longer compatible with the new system.

This alone means that Sony and Microsoft will not allow it. Since TellTale billed the game as complete, they are unable to push an update that would depreciate current save data and force a wipe. If TellTale had properly listed the game as a Alpha port, then this wouldn't be an issue.

That's not even getting into the bits where your console hardware doesn't meet the gameplay specs on newer versions though. Your hardware will struggle greatly to maintain a playable FPS without severe stuttering and freezes. I cover this in detail in the Sitcky.

I don't know why the issue with old saves not being compatible is being brought up now. Let's take a look at the PS4 updates; Version 1.14 brought 50+ new items, new block types, new recipe, farming improvements, chemistry station, skill update.  Version 1.16 introduced traders for the first time as well as major changes to the Navezgane map through new POIs. Version 1.17 made changes to the perk system, removing some. All these major changes basically "broke" old saves and if you wanted to experience the changes, you need to create a news save. So, why is this being used as an argument now to not update the game?

On the issue of whether the consoles can handle A16 or 17 changes: The next update to the console was close to getting released before Telltale folded up, indicating that the console can indeed handle more of the things that are present in the newer PC version. What those things are, we do not know. Maybe the console can handle only a handful of them, the addition of the turrets perhaps, maybe the new weapons, maybe the new vehicles, maybe electric system. These things seem technically reasonable enough to be patched to the console version. Can it handle the newer textures and the other newer technical aspects -- you're saying no, some have doubts about what you are saying and think it is possible. So, why can't the company call a few of the game porters in the industry to make an assessment? I'll tell you why -- because they already adopted a defeatist attitude. What's the harm in contacting some of those companies to make an assessment if they really want to make things right?

You know the old saying that goes something like if a person do not want to do something, he/she can find an unlimited number of excuses not to do it. And that when a person really wants to do something, he/she will find a way to do it in full or partially. What is happening is exactly that. The Fun Pimps simply do not want to do anything at this point.

I see someone on Reddit is quoting you, lol. Two people arguing about the port. Lotta people just don't understand it actually can't run on the hardware. The hardware's the issue, not the game's code. Even after gold optimizations the last gen still wouldn't be able to handle the new engine and stuff. It barely handled previous alphas, and I don't know if I count "25fps on medium graphics with one base" as "handling it." 

"Which is kinda pathetic since it is just a Unity game. What are they doing wrong with their code if it can't run on modern gen systems."

"It has nothing to do with their code, it's the hardware itself. It's the same reason why Space Engineers on PC has 16 to 124 player servers, but on Xbox, it's only capable of 2 player co-op, 4 if you use split screen on two Xbox One X's, the souped up version of the console. This also took them 7 years to achieve.

The hardware simply isn't capable of handling an entire dynamic world. It simply doesn't have enough RAM or a CPU to keep up. 8GB is the absolute bare minimum to run this game, on top of that, Microsoft uses an archaic offshoot of FAT32 (2001) for its modern memory in the Xbox, which is a huge reason for all the MD5 errors still present on that system. That file allocation system is just not capable of running 7 Days.

"But CoD runs at 60FPS on Ultra on Xbox!" Yes, and CoD is a game that is 99% static, with the only things being computed are player models moving, and some particle effects from explosions and stuff. Deformation are just scripted animations, like a car exploding and being replaced with a dead car model. (hitscan is hitscan, no projectile calculations like Battlefield)

Games lik 7 Days, SE, are dynamic, real-time, physics calculations, going on, at all times. The game is making sure the entire world is doing what it needs to be doing at any given time, even that dirt block below your feet. It's also not spaghetti code. This ain't no Yandere Simulator if else party."

(This goes on for paragraphs and paragraphs, but at the end they added your quote about saves cause the person was arguing if the dev was competent the saves would work.)

Like I said, I don't understand why the issue of older saves not being compatible has become an issue now when it wasn't in the past. Previous patches on the consoles required players who want to experience the major changes to create a new save. So, why is this being brought up just now if Sony and MS do not allow these kinds of things?

 

[Laz Man]

I don't know why the issue with old saves not being compatible is being brought up now. Let's take a look at the PS4 updates; Version 1.14 brought 50+ new items, new block types, new recipe, farming improvements, chemistry station, skill update.  Version 1.16 introduced traders for the first time as well as major changes to the Navezgane map through new POIs. Version 1.17 made changes to the perk system, removing some. All these major changes basically "broke" old saves and if you wanted to experience the changes, you need to create a news save. So, why is this being used as an argument now to not update the game?

On the issue of whether the consoles can handle A16 or 17 changes: The next update to the console was close to getting released before Telltale folded up, indicating that the console can indeed handle more of the things that are present in the newer PC version. What those things are, we do not know. Maybe the console can handle only a handful of them, the addition of the turrets perhaps, maybe the new weapons, maybe the new vehicles, maybe electric system. These things seem technically reasonable enough to be patched to the console version. Can it handle the newer textures and the other newer technical aspects -- you're saying no, some have doubts about what you are saying and think it is possible. So, why can't the company call a few of the game porters in the industry to make an assessment? I'll tell you why -- because they already adopted a defeatist attitude. What's the harm in contacting some of those companies to make an assessment if they really want to make things right?

You know the old saying that goes something like if a person do not want to do something, he/she can find an unlimited number of excuses not to do it. And that when a person really wants to do something, he/she will find a way to do it in full or partially. What is happening is exactly that. The Fun Pimps simply do not want to do anything at this point.

Like I said, I don't understand why the issue of older saves not being compatible has become an issue now when it wasn't in the past. Previous patches on the consoles required players who want to experience the major changes to create a new save. So, why is this being brought up just now if Sony and MS do not allow these kinds of things?

Just a guess, I think there is a difference between breaking a save versus starting a new one to experience added new contact.  I dont own the console version so I dont have first hand knowledge of losing a save because of an update.

 

[Nef]

I don't know why the issue with old saves not being compatible is being brought up now. Let's take a look at the PS4 updates; Version 1.14 brought 50+ new items, new block types, new recipe, farming improvements, chemistry station, skill update.  Version 1.16 introduced traders for the first time as well as major changes to the Navezgane map through new POIs. Version 1.17 made changes to the perk system, removing some. All these major changes basically "broke" old saves and if you wanted to experience the changes, you need to create a news save. So, why is this being used as an argument now to not update the game?

On the issue of whether the consoles can handle A16 or 17 changes: The next update to the console was close to getting released before Telltale folded up, indicating that the console can indeed handle more of the things that are present in the newer PC version. What those things are, we do not know. Maybe the console can handle only a handful of them, the addition of the turrets perhaps, maybe the new weapons, maybe the new vehicles, maybe electric system. These things seem technically reasonable enough to be patched to the console version. Can it handle the newer textures and the other newer technical aspects -- you're saying no, some have doubts about what you are saying and think it is possible. So, why can't the company call a few of the game porters in the industry to make an assessment? I'll tell you why -- because they already adopted a defeatist attitude. What's the harm in contacting some of those companies to make an assessment if they really want to make things right?

You know the old saying that goes something like if a person do not want to do something, he/she can find an unlimited number of excuses not to do it. And that when a person really wants to do something, he/she will find a way to do it in full or partially. What is happening is exactly that. The Fun Pimps simply do not want to do anything at this point.

Like I said, I don't understand why the issue of older saves not being compatible has become an issue now when it wasn't in the past. Previous patches on the consoles required players who want to experience the major changes to create a new save. So, why is this being brought up just now if Sony and MS do not allow these kinds of things?

Talk about timing. Someone else said it for me to another person. 



In regards to what they said, like a PoI that no longer exists.

 

[SylenThunder]

I don't know why the issue with old saves not being compatible is being brought up now. Let's take a look at the PS4 updates; Version 1.14 brought 50+ new items, new block types, new recipe, farming improvements, chemistry station, skill update.  Version 1.16 introduced traders for the first time as well as major changes to the Navezgane map through new POIs. Version 1.17 made changes to the perk system, removing some. All these major changes basically "broke" old saves and if you wanted to experience the changes, you need to create a news save. So, why is this being used as an argument now to not update the game?

These were just additions, not a complete re-structure.  The way blocks are managed and listed in both the core files, and in the saved game data is completely different from a16 to a17. So much so that TFP even made a conversion tool so that we could transform custom prefabs from the older version to be compatible to the new version.

The same goes with the progression data. The whole system was re-worked in a16, and then again in a17 even further.

For the console you could get block and world updates for a15 and 16 without having to implement the progression changes. Then your old saves are still fully functional, but in order to see any new content, you will need to start a new save.  Starting with a17 the entire core system that these things ride on is changed, and the Unity version was updated. This change results in all previous saves being 100% incompatible with the client itself, and added mechanics brings the base hardware requirement beyond what the console is capable of.

And it's not that we're just using this now. I've been telling you folk this very same thing for years, you just don't want to listen. It's like you can't face reality because it will break your little bubble.

 

[alden666]

For the console you could get block and world updates for a15 and 16 without having to implement the progression changes. Then your old saves are still fully functional, but in order to see any new content, you will need to start a new save.  Starting with a17 the entire core system that these things ride on is changed, and the Unity version was updated. This change results in all previous saves being 100% incompatible with the client itself, and added mechanics brings the base hardware requirement beyond what the console is capable of.

If this is true, then they should bring the full features over from these version updates then. If A16 is the furthest that the console version can go, I can accept that. I am not an unreasonable person (although I still prefer if they would have a game porter make an assessment and tell us the findings if it is true that his is the furthest they can go.)

IIRC, the major patches in console did render outdated multiplayer saves unplayable. Sony and Microsoft's rules were already being violated before in the past.