PC Open Letter to TFP's...

[Demandred1957]

TBH I have more of a problem with someone running away on a vehicle all the time with permadeath active than I do normally.  Why even choose permadeath if you're just going to cheese anyways?  Kinda removes all meaning from permadeath if you can start doing stuff like that.  Might as well spawn in items, turn off the AI when you need to, use godmode, etc while you're at it.  If gas was limited and so you had to sacrifice alot of a vital resource to drive the night safely it'd be different, but gas is essentially infinite so those escapes in vehicle are effectively free and infinite as well.

IMO the only reason to cheese or console when using permadeath is if you run into a glitch that would cause a death or significant loss that isn't your fault.  Now time for me to get back to running my XCOM ironman run with cheat trainer active!

 Permadeath is as close to really dying as you are going to get. So you are telling me, that in a life or death situation, that you are not going to use every available option to keep yourself alive?? That literally makes zero sense.

And note that I never once said drive the night away, and gas isnt unlimited.

The 4x4 is a gas hog, and unless you go to the desert to get shale, it can be a challenge to keep ahead of it.

But even so, it's MORE immersive to use it for a escape plan to keep yourself "alive" than to make a stand and die for no good reason.

I would rather be alive and judged a coward, than to make a stand and die..

Like I said, until you try playing permadeath style, you have no basis for calling other peoples options to stay alive "cheese" EVEN IF they are not playing that way.

Maybe they put their heart and soul into playing as immersive as they could, and they really "feel" it when they die.

It's not about the "slight XP penalty" or any other excuses I've heard to justify just dying and accepting it.

I think the players that are using everything they possibly can to stay alive, are the only ones "really" playing the game.

 

[Ralathar44]

 Permadeath is as close to really dying as you are going to get. So you are telling me, that in a life or death situation, that you are not going to use every available option to keep yourself alive?? That literally makes zero sense.

Let's not go into realism, there are a ton of things you use to stay alive in game that are the anti-thesis of realism.  It has nothing to do with realism.
 

And note that I never once said drive the night away, and gas isnt unlimited.

The 4x4 is a gas hog, and unless you go to the desert to get shale, it can be a challenge to keep ahead of it.

If you're at the point you're driving a 4x4 then you should have an active shale mine already.  But even without shale quests respawning cars at quest POIs provide you plenty of gas and the longer a game goes on the more solar you'll have.

 

[meganoth]

"oh wow, i'm dead and lost some xp"...SMH.. like I said, some of us are playing on permadeath, so there is no "oh wow" It's "holy crap...40 hrs worth of work gone" which is plenty of horror imo. Until you try playing it that way, you shouldn't be so disparaging of other peoples "safety valves"..

In fact, Permadeath could be another notch on the difficulty slider, where you just wake up at the start fresh again, instead of having the additional pain of having to erase your save file yourself.

But with that setting, no cheesy anti cheese things like the vulture mob. I can deal with Demo's and tons off cops etc, because I stand a chance against them if I play well, but a god mode punishment when my in game life is "truly" on the line is just too much for me to swallow.

I mentioned a few times I talk about default vanilla game. If someone makes up his own rules or changes important config options like zombie block damage then a lot of things change. Increase zombie block damage and fighting on the street becomes the best strategy against the horde. Turn zombie block damage down and you might be completely safe in a steel cube for horde night. Play permadeath and the "walk over mines unharmed"-book becomes the most important book of all.

7D2D default has no permadeath.

By the way, I know you will be modding the game because of this, great. But in this thread people mentioned other ways to have a safety net. For example by having a backup mini base or a one-time-use cleared POI. Or the craft base if it is separate from the horde base as a sturdy backup. I would assume all of those options would also give you the breather you mentioned. Why are they so unacceptable to you?

 Permadeath is as close to really dying as you are going to get. So you are telling me, that in a life or death situation, that you are not going to use every available option to keep yourself alive?? That literally makes zero sense.

And note that I never once said drive the night away, and gas isnt unlimited.

The 4x4 is a gas hog, and unless you go to the desert to get shale, it can be a challenge to keep ahead of it.

But even so, it's MORE immersive to use it for a escape plan to keep yourself "alive" than to make a stand and die for no good reason.

I would rather be alive and judged a coward, than to make a stand and die..

Like I said, until you try playing permadeath style, you have no basis for calling other peoples options to stay alive "cheese" EVEN IF they are not playing that way.

Maybe they put their heart and soul into playing as immersive as they could, and they really "feel" it when they die.

It's not about the "slight XP penalty" or any other excuses I've heard to justify just dying and accepting it.

I think the players that are using everything they possibly can to stay alive, are the only ones "really" playing the game.

If we talk about what makes sense and using everything they possibly can to stay alive, a real survivor in the world of 7D2D A18 would never ever build a base and hole up in it when he could just drive through the whole night in perfect safety instead. It is not about being a coward, no sensible person chooses the option of a dangerous fight when he gains nothing from the fight and driving around is just 10 times safer. 

 

[Demandred1957]

By the way, I know you will be modding the game because of this, great. But in this thread people mentioned other ways to have a safety net. For example by having a backup mini base or a one-time-use cleared POI. Or the craft base if it is separate from the horde base as a sturdy backup. I would assume all of those options would also give you the breather you mentioned. Why are they so unacceptable to you?

Because unless it's right next door how you gonna get to it?

Unless you spec into a running build, and if thats the case, why even have a vehicle?

Yeah, yeah, I know coffee etc, But why are you and the pimps so opposed to the go to solution in fantasy horror movies when your life is REALLY in danger (vs just the all the time in danger) in a fantasy horror game?

Why does the vehicle I worked hard and spec'd into got to be taken away? I see no difference between the vehicles and the god mode guns you get.

Like really.. Whats the odds of you finding (or being able to make) a M-60?? Or the ammo to use in it?

I am a machinist irl, and if I had all the materials and tooling I "might" be able to make one in a month or two, but there we are..using a op tool given to us.

We should only have access to a club, spear, bow and arrows if you are really worried about god mode.. 

By taking away that tactic, as others have said it forces you to play a certain way, and only that way. (variations of a tower).

The whole "God Mode" thing sounds like a straw-man to me.

 

[meganoth]

Because unless it's right next door how you gonna get to it?

Unless you spec into a running build, and if thats the case, why even have a vehicle?

Yeah, yeah, I know coffee etc, But why are you and the pimps so opposed to the go to solution in fantasy horror movies when your life is REALLY in danger (vs just the all the time in danger) in a fantasy horror game?

Why does the vehicle I worked hard and spec'd into got to be taken away? I see no difference between the vehicles and the god mode guns you get.

Like really.. Whats the odds of you finding (or being able to make) a M-60?? Or the ammo to use in it?

I am a machinist irl, and if I had all the materials and tooling I "might" be able to make one in a month or two, but there we are..using a op tool given to us.

We should only have access to a club, spear, bow and arrows if you are really worried about god mode.. 

By taking away that tactic, as others have said it forces you to play a certain way, and only that way. (variations of a tower).

The whole "God Mode" thing sounds like a straw-man to me.

But why not next door? 80% of my horde bases were all inside or at the outskirts of a town. Nobody forces you to build away from a town.

And even with heavy armor you can run quite a distance and keep the zombies at a distance as long as you don't run out of ammo. I've seen a video of Madmole where he runs around outside the base for 2 hours of the horde night, with a mix of shooting and even some melee, in heavy armor. In that time he could as well have reached the next town. There is also the possibility to make tunnels, bridges or small pillars to help you along the way or get your stamina back up if it really is a big distance.

I've seen a lot of horror movies. Whenever someone tries to drive away in a car in a horror movie, 9 times out of 10 the car doesn't start, or the driver doesn't find the keys, or the car ends up hitting a tree after 200 meters. And naturally phones never work. Tip: Watch "The Cabin in the Woods" (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1259521) from Josh Whedon, one of the best movies to make fun of the teen horror movie conventions besides "Scream".

Guns are not god-mode. They are very powerful, but so are glowie zombies in close quarters or a demo that was triggered. Guns break in the worst moments if you forget to repair them. The magazine is always empty when a zombie is standing directly before you

Sure, 7D2D could just have basic zombies and club, spear and bow. But then there would be no progression for the player and likewise no stronger zombies. Obviously not the idea TFP had for the game.

Whats the odds of finding an M60? If you ask "... in reality", that depends on your ability to find deserted army camps. But reality doesn't matter. In 7D2D you find M60s. That is the reality of 7D2D that is different to the real reality in many ways.

 

[Demandred1957]

I've seen a lot of horror movies. Whenever someone tries to drive away in a car in a horror movie, 9 times out of 10 the car doesn't start, or the driver doesn't find the keys, or the car ends up hitting a tree after 200 meters. And naturally phones never work. Tip: Watch "The Cabin in the Woods" (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1259521) from Josh Whedon, one of the best movies to make fun of the teen horror movie conventions besides "Scream".

Guns are not god-mode. They are very powerful, but so are glowie zombies in close quarters or a demo that was triggered. Guns break in the worst moments if you forget to repair them. The magazine is always empty when a zombie is standing directly before you

Sure, 7D2D could just have basic zombies and club, spear and bow. But then there would be no progression for the player and likewise no stronger zombies. Obviously not the idea TFP had for the game.

Guns and vehicles are the same to me. So if you run out of ammo, and got a glowing one in your face, why not be able to bail? That's progression after all, because I had to progress to be able to make the vehicles and guns both..

So if guns are not god mode, then neither are vehicles. Both are powerful tools, that you should be able to use as you will.

And because of the lag, you ARE kinda forced to build away from a town. That pawn shop build of mine showed that quite well, because the game would start dropping fps when I was looking at it and the cabinet shop together. Then stack zombies on top of that, and you got a problem. I havent tried to turn sli off yet, but may for the next horde just to see if it helps, but I kinda doubt it.

And why not next door? because I don't want my house getting rekt during the horde, and I don't want screamers from the heat map wrecking the base while i'm making stuff.. I don't build in the next town, but far enough away that doesn't happen.

 

[Laz Man]

Guns and vehicles are the same to me. So if you run out of ammo, and got a glowing one in your face, why not be able to bail? That's progression after all, because I had to progress to be able to make the vehicles and guns both..

So if guns are not god mode, then neither are vehicles. Both are powerful tools, that you should be able to use as you will.

And because of the lag, you ARE kinda forced to build away from a town. That pawn shop build of mine showed that quite well, because the game would start dropping fps when I was looking at it and the cabinet shop together. Then stack zombies on top of that, and you got a problem. I havent tried to turn sli off yet, but may for the next horde just to see if it helps, but I kinda doubt it.

And why not next door? because I don't want my house getting rekt during the horde, and I don't want screamers from the heat map wrecking the base while i'm making stuff.. I don't build in the next town, but far enough away that doesn't happen.

I can get behind the idea of using a vehicle as a weapon but for gameplay reasons it shouldnt be over powered.  I also dont think vehicles should be the best weapon despite realism concerns. My 2 cents.

 

[Demandred1957]

I can get behind the idea of using a vehicle as a weapon but for gameplay reasons it shouldnt be over powered.  I also dont think vehicles should be the best weapon despite realism concerns. My 2 cents.

The thing is...how many people actually drive around to avoid the horde all the time? I bet it's a tiny percentage of the total players. As far as ACTUALLY using them as weapons, they suuuuck. I have ran over a wolf 6-7 times at full speed and not killed it.

So all they are really is a point to point transport and rolling storage.

But you still have to progress, spec into, and gather resources to build them. They are not a exploit. Take for example, the classic floating base.. been plenty of videos about that exploit. still not patched as far as i know.

in fact now people are cheesing the zoms by putting plates across a trench, that goes around a block of land.. almost no resources to build it, and it works as of A19.. Look up Primate on youtube.

No sense talking about using vehicles to avoid the horde, when they are doing their built in purpose, as designed.

Your bases are not supposed to float, and let zoms fall through around the edges thus avoiding the horde without spending ANY resources. That is CLEARLY a exploit.

same with the plates across a trench trick.

If you have to think about a way to trick the zoms etc, thats a exploit.

Getting in the vehicle you earned, and running them down is not..

Using something in the way it's supposed to be used isn't a exploit, and that's as clear as I can make it.

If someone that's more eloquent want's to explain it better, be my guest.

 

[Laz Man]

The thing is...how many people actually drive around to avoid the horde all the time? I bet it's a tiny percentage of the total players. As far as ACTUALLY using them as weapons, they suuuuck. I have ran over a wolf 6-7 times at full speed and not killed it.

So all they are really is a point to point transport and rolling storage.

But you still have to progress, spec into, and gather resources to build them. They are not a exploit. Take for example, the classic floating base.. been plenty of videos about that exploit. still not patched as far as i know.

in fact now people are cheesing the zoms by putting plates across a trench, that goes around a block of land.. almost no resources to build it, and it works as of A19.. Look up Primate on youtube.

No sense talking about using vehicles to avoid the horde, when they are doing their built in purpose, as designed.

Your bases are not supposed to float, and let zoms fall through around the edges thus avoiding the horde without spending ANY resources. That is CLEARLY a exploit.

same with the plates across a trench trick.

If you have to think about a way to trick the zoms etc, thats a exploit.

Getting in the vehicle you earned, and running them down is not..

Using something in the way it's supposed to be used isn't a exploit, and that's as clear as I can make it.

If someone that's more eloquent want's to explain it better, be my guest.

Yes, I am aware of the floating base exploit/strategy/whatever you call it and what's your point?

Why not fix that instead?  If I had to guess it's because it's a more complex problem or they dont have a fix for it yet.  Plate/sheet blocks are used in many POIs and making them unstackable will probably cause more problems then it solves.

Have you seen the A19 dev stream that faatal/shawn attended?  He explained well why certain things are changed vs others.  For example, the arrowslit / forcefield exploit is confirmed but the fix he had in mind to address it would have cause the game to run slower which is a no no so the exploit will remain for now.

 

[Raestloz]

Attack? I was just making sure we are on the same page about a basic rule of game design

Then I apologize. The language used seemed like an attempt at sarcasm

In games for adults the concept could work as well, not every game is a horror game after all. But 7D2D **is** a horror game! I could even imagine horror games with safety valves, but then the horror would have to be much more graphic to need such a thing. "Oh wow, I'm dead and lost some XP" Do we really need a safety valve for that?

It seems that you're saying the penalty of dying is already so small, why even bother running away? Personally this seems like it should've been backwards: the penalty should be higher, so there's a legitimate reason trying to run. After all, once you've warmed to the idea "eh dead or no it's no big deal, just a small xp loss", dying doesn't look so scary anymore, which kind of defeats the point of making people scared of dying.

To me, in an effective horror genre people should not be scared of the death itself, rather they should be scared at the prospect of dying. This works in many media because they don't get a second chance: once they die that's it. Of course, I'm not saying permadeath should be the default, but getting killed is like getting hit by a jumpscare: once you've realized there's no actual danger in it, it stops being actually scary and feels like a very cheap shot

Meanwhile, if the penalty of dying is higher, now you have every reason to make use of everything to its fullest potential. One such thing is the 4x4

Now, I'm not saying that you should be able to drive 4x4 all blood moon and be safe come 04:00, but I do think that preventing the player from getting away from the horde at all should not be the way to handle it. Instead, incentive should be given for the player to return and face the horde again, such that the 4x4 is a temporary relief instead of a shelter. What that incentive is, I don't know, it could be that the horde will lose interest and attempt to attack the base itself, it could be that you'll get a debuff if you're too far from your bedroll during blood moon horde. I'm not really good at the whole balance thing, but I hope you get the idea

 

[Feycat]

I can get behind the idea of using a vehicle as a weapon but for gameplay reasons it shouldnt be over powered. 

I feel like folks who are pro using the vehicle as a weapon have never hit a deer

 

[Raestloz]

I've never been able to kill anything using any vehicle. I was actually quite disappointed that the car has this spiky grills and practically does 0 damage

 

[Laz Man]

I've never been able to kill anything using any vehicle. I was actually quite disappointed that the car has this spiky grills and practically does 0 damage

Hopefully when vehicle mods come in it can become a thing again.

 

[Raestloz]

Hopefully when vehicle mods come in it can become a thing again.

Hopefully they can add a load of zombies in the streets like in Gravestown of Diersville so I can load up my car with spikes and just drive through a sea of zombies. I don't even mind if they don't give xp or drop loots, it just sounds like pure fun, heck maybe even while being chased by bandits

although maybe that would make it too mad max-like

 

[Solomon]

I thought they fixed the passing through stuff bug, I haven't seen that in awhile. And yes it is a bug not a design choice. Also how is default of 8 max alive an impossible mob? And there are still a lot of valid strategies for base building, I'm generally just lazy with a base during new alphas because I'd rather check out the new POIs.

Sorry dude, it was an example of bad design choices from another game. This is strictly not related in any way to 7DTD but just as an example.

 

[Demandred1957]

Yes, I am aware of the floating base exploit/strategy/whatever you call it and what's your point?

My point is, one thing is being used in a way it was never meant to be used period, and the other is now all "oh, we don't like you using that like you use it at any other time because.."

Vehicles are meant to be used as vehicles..

Plates etc are not meant to be used the way they are being used.

I feel like folks who are pro using the vehicle as a weapon have never hit a deer

Depends on the deer, but I know what you're saying..

I hit one with my 1941 chevy master deluxe doing about 50mph..

I got a good look at it cartwheeling through the air before it landed in the opposite road ditch. Wasn't even edible, because of all the bone splinters.

Hit another with my mazda miata, and it spun around a couple of times, got up, snorted at me, and jumped over a 8' tall fence..

As far as in game, they basically do 0 damage..

It seems that you're saying the penalty of dying is already so small, why even bother running away? Personally this seems like it should've been backwards: the penalty should be higher, so there's a legitimate reason trying to run. After all, once you've warmed to the idea "eh dead or no it's no big deal, just a small xp loss", dying doesn't look so scary anymore, which kind of defeats the point of making people scared of dying.

To me, in an effective horror genre people should not be scared of the death itself, rather they should be scared at the prospect of dying. This works in many media because they don't get a second chance: once they die that's it. Of course, I'm not saying permadeath should be the default, but getting killed is like getting hit by a jumpscare: once you've realized there's no actual danger in it, it stops being actually scary and feels like a very cheap shot

yeah, that's sums it up.

 

[meganoth]

Then I apologize. The language used seemed like an attempt at sarcasm

It seems that you're saying the penalty of dying is already so small, why even bother running away? Personally this seems like it should've been backwards: the penalty should be higher, so there's a legitimate reason trying to run. After all, once you've warmed to the idea "eh dead or no it's no big deal, just a small xp loss", dying doesn't look so scary anymore, which kind of defeats the point of making people scared of dying.

To me, in an effective horror genre people should not be scared of the death itself, rather they should be scared at the prospect of dying. This works in many media because they don't get a second chance: once they die that's it. Of course, I'm not saying permadeath should be the default, but getting killed is like getting hit by a jumpscare: once you've realized there's no actual danger in it, it stops being actually scary and feels like a very cheap shot

Meanwhile, if the penalty of dying is higher, now you have every reason to make use of everything to its fullest potential. One such thing is the 4x4

Now, I'm not saying that you should be able to drive 4x4 all blood moon and be safe come 04:00, but I do think that preventing the player from getting away from the horde at all should not be the way to handle it. Instead, incentive should be given for the player to return and face the horde again, such that the 4x4 is a temporary relief instead of a shelter. What that incentive is, I don't know, it could be that the horde will lose interest and attempt to attack the base itself, it could be that you'll get a debuff if you're too far from your bedroll during blood moon horde. I'm not really good at the whole balance thing, but I hope you get the idea

The dying penalty is always a balancing act. 7D2D had already cycled through different death penalties and there were always people claiming it was a death loop for newbies and people claiming it was inconsequential. The current form might be the last iteration because it has a clear advantage: Since the xp penalty is capped at 1 whole level you can't get into a death loop AND your gamestage will not rise when you are constantly dying, giving you the chance to recover. Overall it is relatively benign.

Now the second "penalty" of a death is the psy@%$*#!gical effect of realising you just died and zombies are eating you. This naturally varies with the individual and has a wide range. And probably goes down the more often you are dieing in the game. Now if the psy@%$*#!gical effect of dying is very strong for someone (and he can't stand it), playing a horror game might not be the best idea. For all other players the combined effect of death penalties is a moment of realizing failure, anger at having made a mistake (or projecting that anger on the game) and hopefully a determination to not do the same mistake next time.

What I'm saying is that the death here is a negative signal to the player just like a chest full of goodies is a positive signal to the player, and games need both. And the default game is balanced so that it isn't game over (except if you choose to play permadeath) but in sum a reasonable penalty that most players of a horror game should be able to accept.

Now with the 4x4 we are back at the beginning. I can understand if people think the current vulture attack is too strong or should have a delay, aka needs more balancing. Sure, I even suggested one way myself. But simply having it like it was in A18 is devaluing horde night as it was a penalty-less escape from any consequences of your actions or mistakes.  

 

[RipClaw]

Now with the 4x4 we are back at the beginning. I can understand if people think the current vulture attack is too strong or should have a delay, aka needs more balancing. Sure, I even suggested one way myself. But simply having it like it was in A18 is devaluing horde night as it was a penalty-less escape from any consequences of your actions or mistakes.  

I had a funny situation there recently. I mentioned to a streamer that it's not so easy anymore to escape in a vehicle during the horde. He didn't know that until this moment.

At first he was very enthusiastic about it until he realized that this also affects him. He had to bail a couple of times after his base failed. Then his enthusiasm has noticeably decreased.
 

 

[Boidster]

I would think for anyone wanting a harsher death penalty, the "delete all" setting for DropOnDeath would work. Zombies carried away all your stuff and repackaged it into sealed crates.

 

[Jeraal]

I feel like folks who are pro using the vehicle as a weapon have never hit a deer

I have hit a deer. But, my truck didn't have spikes or a sweep specifically designed to destroy or sweep obstacles out of the way. When I first saw the 4x4, I thought "Cool, this should be great for taking out zeds".