PC Progression sucks

[Laz Man]

Loot is now tied to the gamestage, not the other way round.

Afaik XP rewards and gamestage values haven't been changed.

You may have leveled faster in previous versions, because finding an AK-47 on day 3 allows you to kill Zs faster and so get more XP in less time. Or an iron shovel early gives more XP in shorter time when digging out burried supplies. And of course quests are done faster if you just rush through the POIs with a pumpgun than if you have to do it with a spear, bow or even melee through it.

And maybe you have headed for leveling more in general.

I can't confirm what you are saying. Even in multiplayer the first bloodmoon for us did not contain cops or ferrals. Even the second one might have a low occurence of ferrals, but still no radiated. The earliest we usually see radiated was the third and that was already this way in A18. So if you insist that you "normally" had radiateds on your second bloodmoon, i'd assume you are rushing the game and are a power-leveler, aka min-maxer.

I think I read somewhere that bloodmoon calculation changed in that game difficulty doesnt increase party GS anymore.  Could be wrong and still need to verify tho.

 

[Jebediah]

Loot is tied to gamestage, which means that better loot is locked behind grinding.

To me it's extremely boring to know that i can't find anything good, or knowing that there won't be any special threat granting special rewards.

What's the point in looting now? Shouldn't you just get basic gear and grind xp?

Or is the game stage tied to looting/stockpiling stuff, making it even worse by forcing you into meaningless gameplay?

If not looting, especially safes or weapon boxes, until you reached a higher game stage is what you should do, that's just bad game design period.

Just putting top tier loot boxes everywhere and adjusting the loot to the player level/stage, i would argue is the most boring, immersion breaking and most lazy way of balancing this aspect of progression.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Just putting top tier loot boxes everywhere and adjusting the loot to the player level/stage, i would argue is the most boring, immersion breaking and most lazy way of balancing this aspect of progression.

That's how it is done currently. However i'd say, previously i've mostly gone from a lvl1 spear to an AK-47 or DBS lvl2 or similar. With the new system i'm happy if i find a lvl4 spear oder a lvl5 bow or a blunderbus, and i use them.

The problem is, like said repeatedly, the game currently has no mechanics to put better lootboxes behind tougher enemies. There is not even something like a "top tier" lootbox. The game doesn't know about good or bad lootboxes. E.g. a weapon bag has weapons in it. Previously with a high chance for ANY low level weapons and lower chance for ANY high end weapon. If you been lucky, you could have found a T6 M60 on Day 1 in a simple shootgun messiah crate in a garage where not even one single zombie spawned. Every type of lootbox drops the same stuff, no matter WHERE the lootbox is placed. The weapon bag in a garage has the same loot as the weapon bag on the roof of dishong tower. The game doesn't allow you to say "this single lootbox here should always drop high level weapons, because it is the lootroom of a reallly tough POI, and those lootbox should only spawn low level loot, because it is just in a garage".

Now with A19 the loot is tied at least to the gamestage. But it still does not matter where a lootbox is. Even on dishong tower roof on day 3 you will not get something better than a bow or maybe a blunderbus.

 

[RipClaw]

I think I read somewhere that bloodmoon calculation changed in that game difficulty doesnt increase party GS anymore.  Could be wrong and still need to verify tho.

The difficulty bonus for the Gamestage calculation is set to a fixed value of 1.2. This is equivalent to the difficulty bonus you had in A18 for Adventurer. For comparison, the difficulty bonus for Insane was 2.5and the bonus for Nomad was 1.5 in A18.

You can see this in the gamestages.xml file and also change it if you want to increase the gamestage progression. 

 

[Jebediah]

The game doesn't allow you to say "this single lootbox here should always drop high level weapons, because it is the lootroom of a reallly tough POI, and those lootbox should only spawn low level loot, because it is just in a garage".

Maybe im missing something, but what exactly is the problem with placing the same objects but with different loot tables in different POI's?!

Then again why does every common house need to have several ammunition and weapon lootboxes that aren't even locked?! You could just remove 90%-99% of those or replace them with something that drops bows, arrows or spears exclusively. You could also spawn better weapons in boxes that require e.g. steel tools or specific lockpicking skills, that require a certain game progression. 

In addition there are lots of different balancing options for example several ways of making high level items less powerful early and mid game.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Maybe im missing something, but what exactly is the problem with placing the same objects but with different loot tables in different POI's?!

There is no problem. It is just not implemented (yet). It CAN be implemented and what i got from some TFP members, they are already working on that (or at least something similar). But it is simply not yet possible.

or replace them with something that drops bows, arrows or spears exclusively.

There are not lootboxes that only drop stone-age items. You could do that, but you'll have to add completely new lootcrates that can be configured to just drop that.

And if e.g. with A20 the lootboxes are improved, all that changes would become obsolete again. Work wasted.

You could also spawn better weapons in boxes that require e.g. steel tools or specific lockpicking skills, that require a certain game progression. 

Yep, you COULD, but also no such mechanic is implemented yet.

In addition there are lots of different balancing options for example several ways of making high level items less powerful early and mid game.

It is already this way. What you are looking for are perks, that improve stuff, but you need to level to gain points you can put into those perks.

That there are weapon bags, ammunition chests, working stiff or shotgun messiah boxes in almost every POI is a result that TFP dungeonised almost every POI to or and make them trader-questable.

 

[Jebediah]

There is no problem. It is just not implemented (yet). It CAN be implemented and what i got from some TFP members, they are already working on that (or at least something similar). But it is simply not yet possible.

My point is that loot changing with game stage is bad game design and that the same results could be achieved in a much better way without much effort. Im not arguing to bring back the previous system or that changes won't require some work and time, or that it needs to change immediately.

If loot tied to game stage is just a temporary solution or subject to test this would be good to know. You can probably already find bad reviews mainly based on this change, that would be completely unnecessary. Without any information on that and while i don't see why they would waste time on this as a temporary solution, we have to assume that this change is ment to stay.

What is you point? You can't justify this by arguing that it works somehow, that it works better than before, or that other solutions would require some work and you might need to change a trader quest. It couldn't be more simple than adding and modifying existing stuff, like modifying stone tools to do zero damage to weapon safes. The actual work would be figuring out the perfect balancing for everything, but there is no way around that if your goal is a well balanced progression.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

What is you point?

I wrote the point at least a dozen times now. You still won't get it if i repeat it one more time.

That reminds of:

 

[RestInPieces]

I wrote the point at least a dozen times now. You still won't get it if i repeat it one more time.

-I don't like this change for [reasons].

-But that's just how things work now.

-Ok, but it could work differently.

-But this has not been implemented yet.

Sorry, but what *is* your point exactly?

This is why I've always said the exp modifier game option is a noob trap.

"In case you haven't already noticed the scaling counter-intuitiveness, here's an option." 

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Sorry, but what *is* your point exactly?

A system that allowes to resolves thoses issues is currently not implemented. Yes the current system is not the best, the previous was also not the best. To make it any better changes need to be made, but they are not done yet. So you can cry how much you want, it will take time to implement the required features.

All people agree that each crate need to have a specific loot table. That is simply not possible in A19. And it is not an easy quick change, that maybe made for the next experimental build. Maybe we see such a system in A20.

 

[Novamourne]

1. There is no progression through the game world. You have 8k by 8k map and there is little reason to explore it. You can just stick to Town with trader and are good for the rest of the game essentially.
   
2. Perk system is stiched together in a weird manner. Differentiating skills into atribute trees is way too restrictive. 
   
3. Loot is tied to gamestage, which means that better loot is locked behind grinding.
   
4. Rare loot is not gained by challenging gameplay but by...you guessed it grinding
   

I agree with your first point, but I'm not sure that its necessarily a bad thing. With the way that it is, it makes more areas viable for basing on. That's good for server populations. Also, I don't think it's as bad as you make it out. You can deplete an area or make it much less worth doing than going somewhere new.

On your second point, I couldn't disagree more. I think the perk system is as near to perfection as it ever has been. Your argument makes it sound like you want to be able to fully spec into one talent without committing to the tree and while I can understand that feeling I do think it defeats the purpose of having what is the equivalent to classes, and that does seem to be the point of the perk system. I think the game would be infinitely less interesting if you didn't have to commit to a tree.

For your third point, I don't see the problem here. Gamestage IS what brings the challenging game play. Zombies get harder the longer you survive, the higher your level. It's grinding, yes, but you can't convince me that a T5 quest/poi isn't more challenging than a T3 and you'd be lying to yourself if you tried to convince yourself of the same.

And on your final point, again I couldn't disagree more. You're asking for a guaranteed loot quality for certain things and that would be way worse than "random" loot. Game stage governs a lot of these things now. You can make an argument that it should scale better to offer more difficulty faster but just by surviving the game gets harder and by extension, everything you do gets harder including your grind.

 

[RestInPieces]

A system that allowes to resolves thoses issues is currently not implemented. Yes the current system is not the best, the previous was also not the best. To make it any better changes need to be made, but they are not done yet. So you can cry how much you want, it will take time to implement the required features.

All people agree that each crate need to have a specific loot table. That is simply not possible in A19.

So, essentially you just want others to stop asking for something different, because that "something" hasn't been implemented yet, which is the reason people are asking for something different in the first place.  

And it is not an easy quick change, that maybe made for the next experimental build. Maybe we see such a system in A20.

Is that an educated guess? Enlighten us.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

So, essentially you just want others to stop asking for something different, because that "something" hasn't been implemented yet, which is the reason people are asking for something different in the first place.  

No, but what people want to have different always turns out the same, and there have been such discussions with the same "result" at least 10 times, within the last few days. It simply becomes boring.

Is that an educated guess? Enlighten us.

Ask Gazz or Fataal. One of them commented some of those discussions...

 

[Jebediah]

I wrote the point at least a dozen times now. You still won't get it if i repeat it one more time.

You repeat saying that a proper solution is "not possible" right now while you actually mean that it would just require some work. -> Irrelevant statement.

Then again when it's just a temporal solution and they are working on proper solution already, why isn't there any information on that?

 

[meganoth]

You repeat saying that a proper solution is "not possible" right now while you actually mean that it would just require some work. -> Irrelevant statement.

Then again when it's just a temporal solution and they are working on proper solution already, why isn't there any information on that?

Liesel already said "what i got from some TFP members, they are already working on that". Which is nearly all the information we have. Roland mentioned zones with different levels of radiation and there is talk about biomes having their own danger setting, especially wasteland being more dangerous.

But TFP tends to not announce what they are working on, only what they have already implemented and is not in danger of being cancled again. I'm absolutely sure none of this will come to A19, if that's what you are thinking. This is stuff for A20 and you will probably hear details about it very late this year.

 

[RestInPieces]

Liesel already said "what i got from some TFP members, they are already working on that". Which is nearly all the information we have. Roland mentioned zones with different levels of radiation and there is talk about biomes having their own danger setting, especially wasteland being more dangerous.

But TFP tends to not announce what they are working on, only what they have already implemented and is not in danger of being cancled again. I'm absolutely sure none of this will come to A19, if that's what you are thinking. This is stuff for A20 and you will probably hear details about it very late this year.

Meganoth, they have been hinting at this for years -- is there any quote from TFP that states their willingness to do that (loot-wise as well)? 

Because the latest changes reflect the exact opposite.

 

[meganoth]

Meganoth, they have been hinting about this for years -- is there any quote from TFP that states their willingness to do that (loot-wise as well)? 

Because the latest changes reflect the exact opposite.

1) It isn't the opposite. The current changes were done to extend the stone age. Leveled loot was always in the game, they just made the higher loot levels impossible instead of really improbable because (they said) that never worked to satisfaction.

2) There is the quote from Madmole that RWG features will be a team effort for A20, I assume that not only road fixing but also features like radiation zones or biome-dependant loot should be part of that package. And there is Rolands statement and I seem to remember a developer saying that at least leveled biomes are on the current feature list. I would say the chance this is one of the features of A20 is about the same as legendary weapons.

 

[Ttocs]

Been playing a19 same as 17 and 18. Single player and 2 points per level. Making the rule that the 2nd point goes toward QoL rather than making me stronger. I know its not vanilla so not sure if its relevant but I havnt looked back since I started doing it. The wait for points is just too slow for me personally on vanilla. 

Not had a problem with the early tools and weapons, have actually enjoyed using the blunder for once as i usually skip over it.

 

[RestInPieces]

1) Opposite in the sense that if they actually want to add zoned loot, both lower and higher levels of loot should be probable and I fail to see how this change serves anything at all towards that goal. Even in the case they want to increase zone GS at, say, TX POIs, they will obviously also have to decrease or cap zone GS everywhere else anyway, because as the player GS rises else they will again end up getting the same loot. In other words I don't think the 18->19 change indicates a willingness for leveled zones in the slightest.

[SIZE=1.4rem]And from my experience until now, it's not that they only extended the stone age (which is good in my book), but also made lower loot levels improbable, which creates its own set of problems, part of which are being discussed in that crafting thread.[/SIZE]

2) Been hearing that for a long time -- hope Roland's statement is fresh and that MM will include gameplay features and not just RWG features.

 

[meganoth]

1) Opposite in the sense that if they actually want to add zoned loot, both lower and higher levels of loot should be probable and I fail to see how this change serves anything at all towards that goal. Even in the case they want to increase zone GS at, say, TX POIs, they will obviously also have to decrease or cap zone GS everywhere else anyway, because as the player GS rises else they will again end up getting the same loot. In other words I don't think the 18->19 change indicates a willingness for leveled zones in the slightest.

[SIZE=1.4rem]And from my experience until now, it's not that they only extended the stone age (which is good in my book), but also made lower loot levels improbable, which creates its own set of problems, part of which are being discussed in that crafting thread.[/SIZE]

2) Been hearing that for a long time -- hope Roland's statement is fresh and that MM will include gameplay features and not just RWG features.

1) I never said the 19 changes indicate a willingness for leveled zones. They are orthogonal.

Don't understand where you see the problem. Lets say a slightly more dangerous area or biome just adds a constant value (for example 10) to loot gamestage. A toon on his first day would find maybe quality 4 stone spears instead of quality 1 stone spears. On day 5 his normal gamestage might be 15 and in a dangerous area he would be in a higher loot tier (which begins at 20), so he would already find pistols and iron spears.

All this needs to work is new data in the RWG that designates zones of difficulties and a few values to expose this to XML.  In this scenario where do you see toons getting the same loot in normal and in dangerous areas? To be clear, I consider a q4 spear to be better loot than a q1 spear.

2) Rolands statement was a few days ago