PC Progression sucks

[Onarr]

This is my opinion. Progression in this game sucks. My main gripes are

1. There is no progression through the game world. You have 8k by 8k map and there is little reason to explore it. You can just stick to Town with trader and are good for the rest of the game essentially.
   
2. Perk system is stiched together in a weird manner. Differentiating skills into atribute trees is way too restrictive. 
   
3. Loot is tied to gamestage, which means that better loot is locked behind grinding.
   
4. Rare loot is not gained by challenging gameplay but by...you guessed it grinding
   

I feel that something needs to change. Here are examples how:

1. You start at forrest, where PoIs are very scattered, resources are very rare. You are forced to use stone tools and weapons for a while. As you explore, specific PoIs will have equipment that you can get. Mine will contain pickaxe, iron axe can be found at lumber mill, you can get some basic seeds at store in small town etc. You slowly acquire supplies and your first vehicle stage two - exploring mountain snow biome.
   Here you start encountering agressive wild life like bears and wolves. For this reason, former inhabitans carried variety of guns, which you can get here. Ammo however is still quite scarce, so you need to save every bullet, as you will need it in stage three - Desert.
   The mountains tend to withold much of the clouds, so little humidity gets to the other side. That created a desolate area, where you start encountering Duke's men. Tough Hardened warriors used to living in unhospitable place here in desert. The firearms come in handy. You need to learn how to survive in this inhospitable place. Water is much harder to come by, you cannot travel outside between 10:00 and 16:00 as the sun will fry you alive. Good thing is, that there are not many zombies here, so you need to mostly worry just about the bandits. From hitting their outposts you start getting some sweet automatic weapons, plenty of ammo, tools, advanced mods and most importantly - rad suit. And damn will you need it for the last stage - the wasteland. A small nuke, that landed on a reserch center in the middle of a large city left much of it in ruins. As you get closer and closer the radiation increases and mutated zombies appear. Tough sons of @%$*#!es for sure. The goal is to get to the crater and explore the secret underground part of the research center, that survived the explosion.
   
   Over the time spent in those biomes, you get better and better vehicles, that make it easier to get back to previous biomes to gather specific resources
   Each biome contains specific trader, that guides you through the PoIs in the area. For an item to appear in traders stock and start appearing in loot, you first need to find it in a specific PoI.
   You are forced to explore, because every 7th day horde is stronger and stronger, and you can find better stuff only as you delve deeper into the map
   
2. Keep the perks, remove the stat prerequisite. Gate it by lvl or finding a book. For example, if you want to get reall awesome at trading, you need to either find or buy book from trader and also invest a perk point.
   
3. Loot will be tied to specific PoIs
   
4. Better loot is locked behind challenging obstacles
   

Do you guys think this game needs some change in regards to progression or not? If so what kind?

 

[Mahnogard]

There is no progression through the game world. You have 8k by 8k map and there is little reason to explore it. You can just stick to Town with trader and are good for the rest of the game essentially.

This has not been my experience. Especially now that in A19, that trader will eventually send me to another trader and so on and so forth. I explore on my own regardless, but having the quests gives me an additional incentive (ie, I can set off in a given direction for 1km and know that there's something to find there, and get paid to do it) and the trade route quests gives me new purchase options and a new "hub" to operate from should I choose to hang out for a while. 

Loot is tied to gamestage, which means that better loot is locked behind grinding.

Now that I've played A19 for long enough, this is really only an early issue. Unless you are a chronic starter-overer (which I am, so I get it), living the stone life is a temporary thing. Would I have done it this way? Probably not. But unless and until they have something in place to refine loot progression beyond GS-gating, I think it's the best compromise. If you feel that it's taking too long, you have the option to increase the XP rate, which will make your hordes more exciting sooner too!  Play around with the XP rates until it feels like playing instead of grinding (a very subjective thing), just be ready for those higher-gamestage zombies to turn up much sooner.

Keep the perks, remove the stat prerequisite. Gate it by lvl or finding a book.

Please no. I experienced level gating. I experienced caliper gating (praying to RNG gets old fast). I don't want to go back. While there are some things I would tweak here and there if it were up to me, I'm actually pretty darn happy with the perk system right now, and I like how the books supplement that in a way that's very valuable but not so essential that I feel incomplete if I don't get X book.

All that said, as the game moves toward completion, more content is going to be added that may give you what you seek, though not necessarily the way you're envisioning it. Not all of us need an explicit reason to travel about and check out the map, but for those who need the extra incentive, I think you'll get more of that in the future. (And anything that requires me to hang out in the Wasteland will be done once to say I did, and then never again. LOL)

 

[Liesel Weppen]

You are forced to explore, because every 7th day horde is stronger and stronger, and you can find better stuff only as you delve deeper into the map

I did a playthrough like what you explained. The game doesn't force you, but you can choose to do so. Now in A19 you can also use the next-trader-quests as a guide for where to go.

I'd appreciate specific POIs having more specific loot (and even different difficulty/gamestage), but such a mechanic is currently not implemented in the game. It's atm simply not possible to do this.

But some points to playing like that:

Because every horde becomes stronger and stronger it becomes more difficult as you can't build huge defense bases on each new spot. Either you build just very lightweight or take over POIs. It's already ressource expensive to build new forges, workbenches, chemstations, etc. every time in you new spot. If the game is still to easy for you, don't build own crafting stuff, just rely on what the trader offers you or what working ones you find in POIs. If there is no working chemstation? Deal with it. If there are not 10 forges like you are used to have in your selfbuilt comfort base, look how your ammunition becomes low because you can't spamcraft bullet casings and tips.

And you don't have a central place where you can hold you stuff in dozens of storage boxes. Once you move on, you have to deceide what to take with you and what you leave behind, even if you travel forth and back 3 times on your move.

The game doesn't force you to do so, but you can do so. For me it was a quite interesting playthrough, but i don't want to be forced to play like that everytime. I also enjoy choosing the place myself and build a huge comfy base, dedicated to defend against the horde (but still not cheesing). 

 

[ElCabong]

You are obviously oriented on the survival factor of the game. I get more fun out of exploring. Exploring is its own reward for me. I would not want to spend more time than I am harvesting food or looking for shelter.

I believe they are planning on human raiders at some future release. They're working on the AI.

 

[guardianangelmp]

This is my opinion. Progression in this game sucks. My main gripes are

1. There is no progression through the game world. You have 8k by 8k map and there is little reason to explore it. You can just stick to Town with trader and are good for the rest of the game essentially.
   
2. Perk system is stiched together in a weird manner. Differentiating skills into atribute trees is way too restrictive. 
   
3. Loot is tied to gamestage, which means that better loot is locked behind grinding.
   
4. Rare loot is not gained by challenging gameplay but by...you guessed it grinding
   

1) only place to get a reliable source of gas is the desert from oil shale.  Only place aloe (thing needed for medical bandages) grows is the desert. Having multiple traders to go to in order to sell loot and find the item you want is a major benefit. Finding multiple t5 factories to loot is a major boon.

These are all huge reasons to explore and make thriving in the game much easier.

2) TFP have gone through many iterations of skill progression in the game (learn by doing, looted schematics, perk points, combo of perk points and schematics).  While I personally liked the LBD way (never going to come back, I know), the current itiration is probably the best.

You don't need to put points into everything since you can loot a lot of schematics and do fine without perking for the item (explosives, work stations, vehicles, cooking recipes, etc).

3) This is the one where I think you're way off. You advance game stage by leveling and you level by doing nearly anything (mining, upgrading blocks, chopping trees, killing zombies), so you advance game stage by exploring, gathering building materials, and building your base......what the whole game is about.

4) this is the one point I agree about.

Unique items (named items) need to be introduced into the game that are obtained by completing high tier quests and t6 items should be craftable again.

It seems you are looking for story driven gameplay and progression (single player RPG style), and while TFP have expressed a plan/desire to expand on the first five personal quests and the story of the Duke, this is a sandbox survival game, not a single player RPG.

 

[Roland]

Grinding usually means you have identified the most efficient way to earn xp and are then repetitively doing only that activity in order to progress as quickly as possible to get “the good stuff” as early as possible. 
 

That is one approach. You can also do a variety of activities that are tied to daily personal objectives and completely unrelated to leveling up like it’s a race. You also move along the progression arc albeit a bit more slowly but without the feeling of grinding at all. You’re just....playing the game—exploring, mining, harvesting, building, etc and as you do all these activities you earn xp and level up without just repetitively doing the one thing that nets the most xp in the shortest possible time and getting bored with that. 
 

If you enjoy grinding, that’s one thing and I would never tell you to stop. But since you’re complaining about grinding, I’m happy to present you with an alternative way to play. You’ll end up at the same place but your play through will be extended by a few game weeks most likely. 

 

[Guest]

I think you're getting hung up on the word "grind" Roland. I don't grind like you describe, and I agree with OP's point : it doesn't really matter what you do or where you go with the current risk vs. reward balance.  You mentioned in another thread that the current loot progression isn't final and that different gamestage/loot modifiers for different POIs and the reintroduction of radiated zones are in the works, so you have to admit that OP has a point about the current loot/progression system. I wish TFP were a little clearer in communicating when new systems are just the basework for what is to come. Now it's just "we've got a new loot system, you'll love it" and sure enough people like playing with blunderbusses, but for at least some of us this feels like a lateral move in quality at best.

Thoughts on the other replies (though I'm not OP): it's fine if you just like exploring for the heck of it, but it would be nice if there was more in-game incentive to do so. I think OP's example of progression is a little too linear for a game like this, but I think it would be nice if biomes and location choice really mattered (again?). In my current game on pregen01, I found five traders in the spread out forest I spawned in. I simply spend my time questing between them, clearing new POIs when I see them and collecting resources for the big horde base I'm building. In 35 days of this, I have had no in-game reason to go look for a desert, wasteland or any specific type of POI to serve my needs, or it must have been kitchens on day one. I'll go and take a look just for the new visuals, but I'd love it if there was actually something special to do or find there. Shale is nice, but kind of unnecessary in my SP experience. I hope this gets fleshed out in the future.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

I wish TFP were a little clearer in communicating when new systems are just the basework for what is to come.

But if the POIs get different loot and difficulty levels for each POI, the current stone-age-system is more or less obsolete. The current system was implemented, because the other possibility is not yet possible. So imho the current system is no basework. Combining both would be even worse.

If i decide to loot a shotgun messiah never the less it adds 100 to your current gamestage, because that's the only place i can get better weapons, i took the decission risk vs reward. If i decide to do that early and still can't find better weapons because the stone-age-mechanic still looks me to stone tools, it's quite pointless.

In 35 days of this, I have had no in-game reason to go look for a desert, wasteland or any specific type of POI to serve my needs, or it must have been kitchens on day one. I'll go and take a look just for the new visuals, but I'd love it if there was actually something special to do or find there. Shale is nice, but kind of unnecessary in my SP experience. I hope this gets fleshed out in the future.

It's the same like the POIs. Besids some ressources are more common in different biomes (afaik) and oilshale is even limited to the desert, there are only small differences except visuals. I haven't tried it but i read that now the snow biome cases you to freeze and that lowers your food even faster.... while people complain that the food drain is to heavy now, even in just a forest. Also the lumberjeck zombies spawn there, which are way more difficult for low leveled players.  Burnt forest and wasteland have random vultures that will hunt you. Wasteland additionally has mines laying around.

Imho more differences in the difficulty would be nice, but in case of ressources it's pretty fine. I don't want to be forced to permanently move around, just because there would be coal only in the snow biome and nitrate only in the forest and lead only in the burnt forest. That would just end up people building their bases on/near biome borders.

If you want something that "forces" you to explore the world, imho something like in darkness falls should be implemented. Some special and unique POIs, placed in specific biomes each, guranted to have exactly one of them on every map. Maybe hidden POIs, like just a fountain in the wild. Or some hidden entrance from a normal looking residential. Special trader quests point you to them. Maybe not directly, but just gives hints where to look. Or you find random notes as loot that point you to those places. And there you get keycards, you need to access the next level POI.

 

[Roland]

I’m happy to consider a different definition of grinding if those who used it want to refine their points. But in reading the posts in this thread and using that context for the label they are using I feel I’m right in my interpretation. But if I’m wrong, I’m happy to listen to what they are talking about when they say “grinding”

I agree that there exists a sameness to looting everywhere across the map especially during the primitive stage. We know that will eventually be fixed and I have no beef with anyone expressing frustration about the current state while we are waiting. 
 

But I consider that to be a separate issue to that of feeling like you have to grind in order to get farther along in the progression. 
 

The current progression arc has a weakness in that what you get from all containers everywhere is very similar and that is the game’s fault. But the process by which a player acts to get their own stats up is a choice and if a player continues to act in a way that they don’t even enjoy—that’s the player’s fault. Especially when the game fully supports playing in a grinding manner vs a non-grinding manner. (Providing people are using the term to mean the same thing)

 

[icehot]

I’m happy to consider a different definition of grinding if those who used it want to refine their points. But in reading the posts in this thread and using that context for the label they are using I feel I’m right in my interpretation. But if I’m wrong, I’m happy to listen to what they are talking about when they say “grinding”

I agree that there exists a sameness to looting everywhere across the map especially during the primitive stage. We know that will eventually be fixed and I have no beef with anyone expressing frustration about the current state while we are waiting. 
 

But I consider that to be a separate issue to that of feeling like you have to grind in order to get farther along in the progression. 
 

The current progression arc has a weakness in that what you get from all containers everywhere is very similar and that is the game’s fault. But the process by which a player acts to get their own stats up is a choice and if a player continues to act in a way that they don’t even enjoy—that’s the player’s fault. Especially when the game fully supports playing in a grinding manner vs a non-grinding manner. (Providing people are using the term to mean the same thing)

I've read quite a few people saying about the grind of levelling and XP gain etc, and it does frustrate me to no end that so many people see it as a race to get to level 300 for some strange reason.  So to that end, have you guys considered just removing all indications of level progression from the game?  Remove the purple bar above the toolbelt, remove the pop ups that tell you how much XP you're getting.  Then people will have no choice but to just play the game, and hope at some point they level up.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

 So to that end, have you guys considered just removing all indications of level progression from the game?  Remove the purple bar above the toolbelt, remove the pop ups that tell you how much XP you're getting.  Then people will have no choice but to just play the game, and hope at some point they level up.

And no levelups, no perks? Not showing the current level in the player stats, not showing gamestage in the grouptab?

Doesn't matter, that people that want to race will figure out or even look up in the xmls and still go the most valuable way, even if the game doesn't show it directly.

And even in mind of these people, there should be a progression, but no matter how you implement progression, they want it different. At least if they have again figured out the most efficient way to go.

And why does it frustrate you they do powerleveling? Do they interfere your playthroughs?

However the xp-bar and xp gain should be removable by mods, if you want to have that. For a complete different experience you might try roland's 0-XP mod. But i guess it won't make you any hapier, because other players still not use them?

 

[icehot]

And no levelups, no perks? Not showing the current level in the player stats, not showing gamestage in the grouptab?

Doesn't matter, that people that want to race will figure out or even look up in the xmls and still go the most valuable way, even if the game doesn't show it directly.

And even in mind of these people, there should be a progression, but no matter how you implement progression, they want it different. At least if they have again figured out the most efficient way to go.

And why does it frustrate you they do powerleveling? Do they interfere your playthroughs?

However the xp-bar and xp gain should be removable by mods, if you want to have that. For a complete different experience you might try roland's 0-XP mod. But i guess it won't make you any hapier, because other players still not use them?

Yes still perks and levelling up (and yes no harm in seeing which level you are, which is just your health above 100 most of the time), just you can't see how much XP you gain, and how far off you are from the next level.  If people really want to force it, sure they can check the XML's etc, but for most people they wouldn't bother, and it would stop it being such a focus, that they would end up just playing the game, and doing stuff for the sake of "living in a zombie apocalypse" rather than a levelling up simulator.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

If people really want to force it, sure they can check the XML's etc, but for most people they wouldn't bother, and it would stop it being such a focus, that they would end up just playing the game, and doing stuff for the sake of "living in a zombie apocalypse" rather than a levelling up simulator.

No, they want to level as fast as possible and they will do that. Why should they care for the XP-bar? You don't level any faster if you pay atention to it, nor do you level slower by ignoring it?

They also don't search for the Zs that give most XP, they simply look for any zombie and try to kill it as fast as possible, as that brings them closer to the next level up. Or how to rush through POIs to complete a mission as fast as possible, and so one. Not showing the XP would not change anything.

Iirc there was no such XP-bar in A17/16? People did "speedrun" anyway.

So what is your problem? Other people rushing the game, or you seeing the XP bar yourself what makes you somewhat to want to rush too?

 

[icehot]

No, they want to level as fast as possible and they will do that. Why should they care for the XP-bar? You don't level any faster if you pay atention to it, nor do you level slower by ignoring it?

They also don't search for the Zs that give most XP, they simply look for any zombie and try to kill it as fast as possible, as that brings them closer to the next level up. Or how to rush through POIs to complete a mission as fast as possible, and so one. Not showing the XP would not change anything.

Iirc there was no such XP-bar in A17/16? People did "speedrun" anyway.

Then that's not what Roland was talking about, which was what my reply was in answer to.  I'm talking about the grinding aspect, specifically to level up as fast as possible, so that the focus on XP is muted somewhat (not entirely taken away but the focus of it is shifted).  I also try to be as efficient as I can, but not for levelling reasons, but to keep the action in the game going, I'm not going to sit around in a quest POI room for hours on end just to artificially slow things down, but I am killing zombies whenever I see them, as they're either in the way, or smashing something I don't want them to, or threatening my life in someway etc.  The levelling then is just a side effect of playing like that.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Then that's not what Roland was talking about, which was what my reply was in answer to. 

Removing just the XP visuals doesn't change what roland is talking about. What roland is talking about needs a completely different system. And that's also why roland made the 0-xp mod. That is a system that achieves what roland is talking about.

 

[Roland]

Dammit Liesel...now I suppose I need to go and start checking to make sure it still works for A19...

Icehot, you have it right but the difference is that I don't care that people speedrun the game and to do so they choose to repetitively grind the same "best for xp" activity for their first few days in order to boost their level up. I just don't want to have to read them complaining about their own self-sabotaging choice. The game allows for both types of play and that is the way it should be and there are lots of people who like playing the grind game and getting super powerful quickly and outpacing the difficulty curve of the game and they never complain and they have fun and I am happy for them.

But to grind when you hate grinding and to race to endgame by day 4 and then hate how the game feels boring and pointless and then come here to talk about how the game forces you to do it when it is clearly a choice by the player and there are thousands of other players who are clearly not being compelled to play that way as proof that there are alternatives....well....THAT simply warrants education.

So I'm not calling for changes to the game to prevent anyone from grinding or speedrunning the game. I'm just sharing that the game doesn't have to be played that way and that the developers aren't really trying to balance the game for that type of playstyle even if they do leave it open to be played in that manner.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Dammit Liesel...now I suppose I need to go and start checking to make sure it still works for A19...

Haha *nelson*

 I just don't want to have to read them complaining about their own self-sabotaging choice.

That's it.

I don't really care for the XP or levels. I prefer doing what i like to do. If i'm searching for a claw hammer i go into a working stiff tools shop, even if it would be more efficient to do a quest. And if i need eggs, i run around searching bird nests. And so on.

Oh and i even forgot: The digging for burried supplies also gives lot of xp. And you will need the clay sooner or later anyway.

 

[Bashtiks]

The game allows for both types of play and that is the way it should be and there are lots of people who like playing the grind game and getting super powerful quickly and outpacing the difficulty curve of the game and they never complain and they have fun and I am happy for them.

Key word ''should be'' but its not ..

Thats why I dont like this new ''loot gating'' .. I enjoy playing with shotgun from day 1, but now I am forced to grind my way to lvl 50ish or smth to start getting parts for it or buy it from trader ..

I enjoy ''powerleveling'' If I am able to be fully geared from day ,1 I have no problems with it and I am able to enjoy the game for quite some time, quite often longer then some craybabys who asking for long & slow grinding but in the end getting tired and leaves the game.

at some point I dont understand all those who wailing about other ppl taking easy or faster ''route''  .. so what if someone is building a cheesebase/skipping poi going straight to the loot/exploiting smth ?? it hurts someone feelings??

I love the open world games that gives a freedom of choice and ability to play either way u want.

 And whats the goal of playing games?? Well at least for me its having fun

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Key word ''should be'' but its not ..

That's your personal opinion. That is your good right.

But what concludes you to the point that the game should be exactly like you want it to be? If there are thousands of players that like it different?

Don't get me wrong, the new loot system has disadvantages i also don't like, but imho it's better than before.

I enjoy ''powerleveling'' If I am able to be fully geared from day ,1 I have no problems with it and I am able to enjoy the game for quite some time, quite often longer then some craybabys who asking for long & slow grinding but in the end getting tired and leaves the game.

And i'm the complete oposite. I absolutely dislike finding weapons on day 1 that make you overpowered from the start. And what i even more dislike is that this is just based on pure luck. That is not a battle royale, that is done in 50 minutes. If you find a shotgun on day one and also ammunition, that's completely overpowered and takes away all the fun.

at some point I dont understand all those who wailing about other ppl taking easy or faster ''route''  .. so what if someone is building a cheesebase/skipping poi going straight to the loot/exploiting smth ?? it hurts someone feelings??

I don't care about cheesing or exploiting. Who wants to do that, should be able to do that. But if i find a shotgun day 1 in a no-threat poi i start over, because that makes the game far to easy. I'd be fine if there is chance to get a shotgun on day one if you choose to encounter a military camp at day 1 and survive it. But from a random POI just because there was a shotgun messiah crate or a weapon bag in an absolute noob-POI?

I love the open world games that gives a freedom of choice and ability to play either way u want.

Most open world games have risk vs reward. You can get good stuff early but it's risky. 7d2d is currently lacking such a system. In A18 you could get overpowered gear early with no risk, if you've been lucky you could have just found a AK47 in a box in a garage where not even one zombie spawned. In A19 you can't. I also dislike the aspect, that the system makes it absolutely impossible, but there was no risk anyway. It was just luck. And that is absolute boring and random.

So the final question is: Why should the game be like you prefer it, but like I dislike? Are you any better than me?

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

Key word ''should be'' but its not ..

Thats why I dont like this new ''loot gating'' .. I enjoy playing with shotgun from day 1, but now I am forced to grind my way to lvl 50ish or smth to start getting parts for it or buy it from trader ..

I enjoy ''powerleveling'' If I am able to be fully geared from day ,1 I have no problems with it and I am able to enjoy the game for quite some time, quite often longer then some craybabys who asking for long & slow grinding but in the end getting tired and leaves the game.

at some point I dont understand all those who wailing about other ppl taking easy or faster ''route''  .. so what if someone is building a cheesebase/skipping poi going straight to the loot/exploiting smth ?? it hurts someone feelings??

I love the open world games that gives a freedom of choice and ability to play either way u want.

 And whats the goal of playing games?? Well at least for me its having fun

The blunderbuss is good substitute early game. It's really powerful and you can keep using it to one-shot zombies well into mid-game. The double barrel has a chance to start dropping around gamestage (GS) 10. The double-barrel is also extremely powerful. I was one-shotting cops with a blue or purple DB  on the Day 21 horde. The pump shotgun has a chance to drop starting around GS 49. If you really must have a pump shot gun early you can add it to your starting equipment or use the creative menu or if you don't want to start with it you can rush the Boomstick perk to 4 and scrap all of the double-barrels you find.