PC Demolisher balance

[paladylan]

By all means, discuss away. It's still in alpha and isn't a complete product. They obviously are already adding in some new zombies in A19. You're expecting this game to be "perfect" now. It's not a complete package. It's like you're trying to say the book sucks after reading three pages of a book that hasn't been finished writing. Your discussion of how it is unfun, unfair, or damaging is based upon an incomplete game. Get over it and tweak it for now. You could have already changed the demolisher to make it more fun, fair, or less damaging in the time it took you to respond to my post.

I am not expecting it to be a perfect game. When did I ever mention the quality of the game? Is a game in progress not allowed to have their game given feedback in order to possibly help with it going in a direction that is healthier for the game? Would you rather no one discuss balance and have the game be released with flaws that could have been discussed and ironed out in the alpha stages where changes are more likely to be added? It would make sense to give MORE feedback during the stage of rapid development and change, in order to make sure the correct changes are being applied, and that progress is being made. You seem to think this is a case of whining or that its a major problem I've made 10 threads on, hyperbolizing my argument.

 

[Ti2xGr]

"Should we not discuss gameplay mechanics and features that we deem unfun, unfair, or damaging to the game?"

It's in ALPHA. It is a work in progress. Just imagine about 2-3 years from now when they have all the weapons, zombies, vehicles, and such in the game.....Oh wait. It's not done yet and we are discussing the balance of a game where at least 1/3 of the content hasn't been included yet. Yes, I think it's a case of whining. Just tweak the demolisher to make it what you want or pause and stop playing until it becomes the game they are trying to create....or, just keep "discussing" how out of balance it is...for now, I guess.

 

[paladylan]

"Should we not discuss gameplay mechanics and features that we deem unfun, unfair, or damaging to the game?"

It's in ALPHA. It is a work in progress. Just imagine about 2-3 years from now when they have all the weapons, zombies, vehicles, and such in the game.....Oh wait. It's not done yet and we are discussing the balance of a game where at least 1/3 of the content hasn't been included yet. Yes, I think it's a case of whining. Just tweak the demolisher to make it what you want or pause and stop playing until it becomes the game they are trying to create....or, just keep "discussing" how out of balance it is...for now, I guess.

Is a game in progress not allowed to have their game given feedback in order to possibly help with it going in a direction that is healthier for the game? Would you rather no one discuss balance and have the game be released with flaws that could have been discussed and ironed out in the alpha stages where changes are more likely to be added, so that these problems aren't brought to light and people have to install mods when the game is released to make it more balanced? It would make sense to give MORE feedback during the stage of rapid development and change, in order to make sure the correct changes are being applied, and that progress is being made.

You seem to miss the point that even though something is infact in progress, it can still have feedback. These alpha updates are given to give us new content to keep the game fresh, and allow for a greater pool of feedback. If a chef is making the dish incorrectly and using wrong ingredients, should you correct him, or is it a work in progress and you should let him ruin the dish?

 

[Ti2xGr]

So, we discuss the entire book's balance based upon the three chapters that are finished, knowing the book isn't finished and we don't even have all the characters in the book yet. How do you expect to give opinions of the future weapons and features and how they balance to one of the newest characters in the game...without knowing or experiencing the new weapons first? Don't you get it? They're not adding a bit here and there. They are still in development. We're discussing the balance of the Demolisher, without knowing what weapons and future defenses will be in the game to combat them. It's a waste of a conversation, unless you think they are done with development and just making final tweaks. Since we know there will be at least an Alpha 20 (at least rumored), current balancing would technically throw off the power of the demolisher to the finished product. I love the discussion, but it's just for entertainment at this point. 

 

[Xtrakicking]

"Should we not discuss gameplay mechanics and features that we deem unfun, unfair, or damaging to the game?"

It's in ALPHA. It is a work in progress. Just imagine about 2-3 years from now when they have all the weapons, zombies, vehicles, and such in the game.....Oh wait. It's not done yet and we are discussing the balance of a game where at least 1/3 of the content hasn't been included yet. Yes, I think it's a case of whining. Just tweak the demolisher to make it what you want or pause and stop playing until it becomes the game they are trying to create....or, just keep "discussing" how out of balance it is...for now, I guess.

Dude, the fact that it's an alpha is 100% irrelevant. Feedback is always needed, early access or not.

 

[paladylan]

So, we discuss the entire book's balance based upon the three chapters that are finished, knowing the book isn't finished and we don't even have all the characters in the book yet. How do you expect to give opinions of the future weapons and features and how they balance to one of the newest characters in the game...without knowing or experiencing the new weapons first? Don't you get it? They're not adding a bit here and there. They are still in development. We're discussing the balance of the Demolisher, without knowing what weapons and future defenses will be in the game to combat them. It's a waste of a conversation, unless you think they are done with development and just making final tweaks. Since we know there will be at least an Alpha 20 (at least rumored), current balancing would technically throw off the power of the demolisher to the finished product. I love the discussion, but it's just for entertainment at this point. 

This isnt the same as reading a book where it is fluid and flows together continuously. The game is given in checkpoints(Alpha #s), and as of this "checkpoint", there is little counterplay for the demolisher, and it limits other aspects of the game. It would be logical to give them feedback on what is wrong in the current state of the game. They might not have had any plans for the demolisher to counter it, or maybe they don't realize its an issue. It would be logical to give them feedback incase they do not realize this mistake, rather than silently modding it and rolling the dice hoping they fix it in the next "checkpoint"(which would be apha 19). My guess as to why its so powerful is because it made it through limited playtesting without an issue, so they would not be aware of the problem unless it was brought to their attention. Never once did I mention it being a finished product, almost finished, or that they were adding little content and approaching the publishing of their game. This is how it works in every other game that is in development, even AAA games like Dota 2 see balance discussions and suggestions to improve the experience, should everyone sit with their tail between their legs because its in progress and use that as an excuse to not suggest things and hope they fix it on their own without player feedback?

 

[Ti2xGr]

Dude, the fact that it's an alpha is 100% irrelevant. Feedback is always needed, early access or not.

It's really hard to give feedback on a product that hasn't been built. I can give feedback on an Ikea table, but wouldn't it be nice if we had all the pieces of the table manufactured first before we complain about the finished product. 

1. We don't have all the zombies created yet or have a clue what they look/act like. 

2. We don't have all the weapons/defenses created yet and don't have a clue what they are. 

What's the point? You're trying to give advice to the developers on what we don't know or even have a clue about. Are you an insider? Do you know what their whole finished game is going to be? If so, please share with me how this demolisher is unbalanced to "insert new weapon/defense here". 

 

[Xtrakicking]

It's really hard to give feedback on a product that hasn't been built. I can give feedback on an Ikea table, but wouldn't it be nice if we had all the pieces of the table manufactured first before we complain about the finished product. 

1. We don't have all the zombies created yet or have a clue what they look/act like. 

2. We don't have all the weapons/defenses created yet and don't have a clue what they are. 

What's the point? You're trying to give advice to the developers on what we don't know or even have a clue about. Are you an insider? Do you know what their whole finished game is going to be? If so, please share with me how this demolisher is unbalanced to "insert new weapon/defense here". 

No, it's really not. We've been doing it for 7 years straight, and guess what, the devs have found it very useful, trust me. This game has undergone many design, gameplay and balance changes, not just based on the devs experience, but also on players experience. We had a very heated argument recently in the Dev diary where Madmole mentioned that all the feedback they receive, specifically from new players, is very important for them, because at this point it's hard for them to judge their game as a new player would judge it.

So yes, feedback is very important, even if it's an alpha game.

 

[Ti2xGr]

Alright. I fully agree. It's a very important thing to give feedback. Yes, you're right. I'll step out of this important conversation and continue playing a well balanced (for now) game, because I took a few personal minutes to change some numbers to temporarily balance what we currently have, knowing that what is coming down the pipe will eventually be a finished product. When Alpha 19 comes out this summer, I'll play that revision, and re-tweak as needed while you continue to discuss what Alpha20 should be.  

 

[Xtrakicking]

Alright. I fully agree. It's a very important thing to give feedback. Yes, you're right. I'll step out of this important conversation and continue playing a well balanced (for now) game, because I took a few personal minutes to change some numbers to temporarily balance what we currently have, knowing that what is coming down the pipe will eventually be a finished product. When Alpha 19 comes out this summer, I'll play that revision, and re-tweak as needed while you continue to discuss what Alpha20 should be.  

Cool! We'll be here giving the devs helpful feedback for the development. Cheers!

(Just for the record, I have my files modded too. Even so, I still give feedback on what I think the game could do better.)

 

[paladylan]

Cool! We'll be here giving the devs helpful feedback for the development. Cheers!

(Just for the record, I have my files modded too. Even so, I still give feedback on what I think the game could do better.)

Exactly, Im not sure why giving feedback on an unfinished product where they value testing and player feedback is considered nonsensical, as opposed to silently modding the game and not giving devs feedback. Its one thing to whine and do nothing, but hes modding the game because he realizes there is an imbalance, and while modding is a temporary fix, not telling the devs about the problem you encountered is certain for a lack of change on the topic at hand. As a previously stated analogy, you would interrupt a chef if they were making a dish incorrectly, and suggest how to properly make it, even though its in progress, as opposed to sitting idly and letting him ruin the dish while you make it correctly on your own.

+1

 

[Liesel Weppen]

There is no whining going on, I am not complaining about the zombie in a subjective way, because at normal settings the demo completely limits late game possibilities on multiple aspects, it's poor game design.

You don't notice that you apply your playstyle, do you? Demos limit base building, yes.

Your solution is like playing an FPS where a gun does almost no damage, and your proposition is "just mod it and play", why should it be that way in the first place?

Your solution is, that obviously you think 7D2D is a tower defense and the demos brake this pure tower defense gameplay.... But 7d2d is not a pure tower defense, nor a pure FPS. But you want to change the game like you personally would prefer it. Did you even take into account that some people WANT to play rogue like, so after some time they reach a point where surviving ist NOT possible anymore?

They way you are complaining is the pure definition of SUBJECTIVE.

Should we not discuss gameplay mechanics and features that we deem unfun, unfair, or damaging to the game so mods are not required to have a fun experience? If we do not point out these problems, then they will never be fixed. There is a difference between constructive analysis and feedback and whining

And like always those discussion end up at "i like to play this way, so change this in that way" and "but i like to play different, so change it in the exact opposite way". You reached that point already some posts ago. Average intelligent people conclude: There is no game mechanic possible, that suits every playstyle best. Less intelligent people still think, "every possible playstyle" is like they play the game and still discussing how to make them game without mods best for "every" player.

Besides the already thousands of threads that complained about the demolishers. Repeating it over and over doesn't help, i'm sure TFP noticed that many people don't like the demos. Your personal WHINING is not required anymore. Your analysis is not constructive, but highly subjective. Even less construcitve because you just WHINE and haven't made a single suggestion on how it could be made better.

 

[paladylan]

You don't notice that you apply your playstyle, do you? Demos limit base building, yes.

Your solution is, that obviously you think 7D2D is a tower defense and the demos brake this pure tower defense gameplay.... But 7d2d is not a pure tower defense, nor a pure FPS. But you want to change the game like you personally would prefer it.

They way you are complaining is the pure definition of SUBJECTIVE.

And like always those discussion end up at "i like to play this way, so change this in that way" and "but i like to play different, so change it in the exact opposite way". You reached that point already some posts ago. Average intelligent people conclude: There is no game mechanic possible, that suits every playstyle best. Less intelligent people still think, "every possible playstyle" is like they play the game and still discussing how to make them game without mods best for "every" player.

Besides the already thousands of threads that complained about the demolishers. Repeating it over and over doesn't help, i'm sure TFP noticed that many people don't like the demos. Your personal WHINING is not required anymore. Your analysis is not constructive, but highly subjective. Even less construcitve because you just WHINE and haven't made a single suggestion on how it could be made better.

I love that you needed to strawman  my entire argument as me trying to play 7d2d as a "tower defense game", its quite laughable. I dont even know where to start with your post because it jumps to so many conclusions and clearly emits a bias. Building a base is a selling point of the game, and a core mechanic as to why it is a unique survival game. Ah yes, lets just completely make one way of playing absolutely trash, and then say its complaining, excellent deduction! With the demo zombie, they severely LIMIT this mechanic for ANYONE who wants to build a base, and makes most of the end game items completely useless, like the turrets that will set off the demo zombie. Do you think its good game design to severely limit creativity in one of the main selling points of the game, and make a whole category of items(electricity/traps) handicapped? But im sure you think that means the entire game is a tower defense game, right?  Also, I don't know where you got "I like to play this waay, so change it", as I previously stated, why make a category of late game completely obsolete? Its a poor game design choice. I'm not saying that every playstyle needs to be perfect, but LATE GAME ITEMS should be an option for the LATE GAME. Im not asking to use primitive bows in late game, these are late game items that currently serve little purpose because of one zombie. Also, my suggestion was rather to not nerf the stats of the zombie, but to change the concept of the zombie in some way. I'm not whining, I didn't complain about how "OMG THIS ZOMBIE SUCKS REMOVE IT NOW!!!!". All you did was @%$*#! at my post and call it "whining", while trying to be demeaning with throwing insults like "less intelligent players"(lol, ironic) around.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

You understood absolutely nothing from my post. *ignore*

Keep on WHINING.

 

[Hollowprime]

The worst thing is they have a detonator on top of them as if someone put it on them and set them free.

This concept looks like it was made out of a fantasy rpg game like borderlands instead of a survival game like fallout.

I'd much rather have a fully armored mutated soldier that occasionally shoots with his rifle, or is holding a huge club of rebar frame with concrete on it. Hell I'd be even ok if they were on fire , had a melting effect on iron bases and would summon hordes periodically.

Literally anything that what the demolishers currently represent.

 

[Sakurambo]

With the demo zombie, they severely LIMIT this mechanic for ANYONE who wants to build a base, and makes most of the end game items completely useless, like the turrets that will set off the demo zombie

like i posted before if the turrets are pointing at their back they didn't set them off

it's really an aspect of the game that requires you to adapt while you progress on the game: at first you can use simple defense like spikes and barbed wire, later on you had to change your tactics and move on to more advanced defences sistem, like electric fences and dart traps or turrets

 

[Hollowprime]

like i posted before if the turrets are pointing at their back they didn't set them off

it's really an aspect of the game that requires you to adapt while you progress on the game: at first you can use simple defense like spikes and barbed wire, later on you had to change your tactics and move on to more advanced defences sistem, like electric fences and dart traps or turrets

how do you make turrets target their back ? The zombies are coming for you facing your direction. You place the turrets facing your direction. I don't remember being able to rotate turrets so that you can drop them midair from the back of the zombies. Also blade traps set them off.

Edit: What about turrets? Do you hide them underneath facing you upwards so they can shoot zombies on their backs?

 

[Sakurambo]

i was talking about shotgun turrets and smg turrets, paladylan was talking about late game defences, not junk turrets

 

[meganoth]

My group had built a horde base with a large staircase (3 blocks wide) coming up to our level, with a platform half way up and turrets behind). It was something like this (P = platform, T = turrets).

       T

>>> P <<<

       V

       V

[upper level]

There were 4 shotgun turrets there. I didn't see much of it as I was running around at ground level (I was shotgun guy), but judging by the low damage on the stairs demos generally did not get activated by the turrets. Probably most were activated or even killed before reaching the platform, so I'm not 100% sure about my conclusion. But I'd say there is a good chance that design did work quite well against demos.

------------------------------------

I'm also sure that TFP wants to hear feedback of all kinds (this is one of the two main reasons to do EA in the first place).

Everyone is free to **discuss** this subject, but (and this is me speaking as a moderator now) please keep it civil

 

[blugold1]

I didn’t read all of the comments, but you just need to rethink your base designs to accommodate the demolishers.  With the exception of vultures, this base will literally take care of the whole blood moon for you.  And it only uses 4 electric fence posts, 4 trip wires, and 8 dart traps. 
 

Day 130 Blood Moon: