To mod or not to mod - lessons learned

[pApA^LeGBa]

Don´t rely on spikes, kill most of them yourself and kill them fast so you can get more kills (This ofc is only later in game when they come all night, no matter how many you kill). And you will get a lot of XP add the learning elixir and you can gain 3-4 levels in a hordenight (16 Z´s) Also traps do give XP. Only the spikes don´t. You need to perk it tough. 

 

[canadianbluebeer]

Pretty much any game,  once you play with mods, if you remove them, start over.

(unless you made the mod yourself, and know exactly what it did, and whether you can continue or not)

I made the magazine bigger on the M60, and gave the compound crossbow 3 shots, currently.

I use other mods for larger bags/containers.

I do need to redo stack sizes, 1000 may seem like a lot until later in the game and you have a box full of mixer, or darts for the traps.

(how many containers to hold 90,000 darts?  that fills up 60 traps ONCE. need reloads. umm)

(which btw, can handle a bloodmoon at GS500+ 64 zeds, insane, all by itself.  zed block dmg down to 25, to negate 10+ zeds being in 1 block banging on another)

(also, the demo zombie still needs balancing.  ok, if left at 8 max, not much of an issue, at 64 well... the traps will get him) 

 

[Laz Man]

My mod removes XP from the game. You gain skill points simply by surviving a full day (60 minutes) regardless of what activities you decide to do. If you die the timer resets so you if don't stay alive you won't gain skillpoints. The problem is that without XP there is zero reason to confront the horde. What I want to do at some point is award skillpoints for killing a certain number of enemies during the bloodmoon event or something like it so that there is an incentive to actually fight. In my mod, running away and avoiding will net you exactly the same number of skillpoints as confronting and fighting. That's the issue.

BTW....afaik the hooks for OnHordeNightStart and OnHordeNightEnd are still not connected.....

I can think of a quest mod for this if you like...

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Don´t rely on spikes, kill most of them yourself and kill them fast so you can get more kills (This ofc is only later in game when they come all night, no matter how many you kill). And you will get a lot of XP add the learning elixir and you can gain 3-4 levels in a hordenight (16 Z´s) Also traps do give XP. Only the spikes don´t. You need to perk it tough. 

I do not only rely on spikes, but for me it doesn't make that much sense to build a base and then shot them all/most manually. I also play coop-multiplayer only and usually one player skills into traps, but the trap-xp are not shared. So yes, of course you get XP through bloodmoons, but that for me is not a that big advantage that makes me "need" bloodmoons. If i want to level fast, i go into a big POI and usually get also a load of XP.

 

[Ornias]

If you afk-skip bloodmoon anyway, because you see no reason to really fight a bloodmoon, why don't you (both) then completely turn off bloodmoon?

If it's the bloodmoon that makes you need to build a afk-safe bloodmoon (cheese) base, bloodmoon still has a reason....

I'm really ambivalent about bloodmoon. On the one hand it's useless, it doesn't drop loot, it doesn't give a solid amount of XP since you only get XP if you kill the Zs yourself but not if they killed by spikes or traps, basically it's only a bulletsink. On the other hand, preparing for the next bloodmoon is the only real task i have left. Without bloodmoon i usually reach a point with sustainable supplies in week 3 or 4. If not prepare for bloodmoon there wouldn't be any pressure on doing anything.

I like to build.  I like the zombies. However as a solo player it makes sense to me to make a cheese base so I can focus on other things. 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Liesel Weppen Ahh yeah, sadly i know that problem with not shared trap XP well enough. You could let everyone place traps, but then it´s only for very late in game, when everyone has enough skillpoints to spend for that. 

@Ornias That´s a lot of effort for a cheesy base. Wow. We do have one too for the evenings where we don´t feel like fighting them, but it´s waaay smaller. Then non cheese base isn´t even that big.

But to be back on topic: If the bloodmoon has no reward what so ever, isn´t it logical to cheese them as much as you can? Why waste ressources for nothing? I guess you can´t just turn it into a quest with a reward if you survive it or kill a certain amount of them?  

 

[Boidster]

My mod removes XP from the game. You gain skill points simply by surviving a full day (60 minutes) regardless of what activities you decide to do. If you die the timer resets so you if don't stay alive you won't gain skillpoints. The problem is that without XP there is zero reason to confront the horde. What I want to do at some point is award skillpoints for killing a certain number of enemies during the bloodmoon event or something like it so that there is an incentive to actually fight. In my mod, running away and avoiding will net you exactly the same number of skillpoints as confronting and fighting. That's the issue.

Is there a way to give skill double skill points (or more) after surviving the bloodmoon? I guess that's what your comment about the missing API hooks was about. Your mod sounds very much like my wish for how the game worked. I may try it. It ties in with my overall "there is no cheese" philosophy - survival is the entire point. If you survive, you win (or at least you earn skill points). Beyond that, do whatchya like.

If you can find a way to make survival of the bloodmoon (considerably) more important/valuable than surviving a regular day, you'll have the game sorted proper, IMO. I will switch to your mod and never look back.

I guess one other change would really make it complete - the horde should never give up. It can start at 2200 on horde night, but it should only end when all scheduled zombie spawns are completed. Run away on your motorcycle? No problem, I can totally understand. But the horde will still spawn in, wherever you are. And it would require despawning unkilled horders and respawning them at the player's current location. Basically turn horde night into a "kill 200 zombies" quest that cannot be dropped or ignored. Easier said than done.

 

[Ornias]

@Liesel Weppen Ahh yeah, sadly i know that problem with not shared trap XP well enough. You could let everyone place traps, but then it´s only for very late in game, when everyone has enough skillpoints to spend for that. 

@Ornias That´s a lot of effort for a cheesy base. Wow. We do have one too for the evenings where we don´t feel like fighting them, but it´s waaay smaller. Then non cheese base isn´t even that big.

But to be back on topic: If the bloodmoon has no reward what so ever, isn´t it logical to cheese them as much as you can? Why waste ressources for nothing? I guess you can´t just turn it into a quest with a reward if you survive it or kill a certain amount of them?  

My farm is on the back ledge though. This is my permanent base. I go strength and motherlode/block damage to begin to gather resources. Roland's mod makes it easier to focus on tasks I actually want to do instead of just farming XP. Like I said, l love the building in this game, but not the insane block damage that requires constant maintenance. These modified drop bases solve both problems/joys.

 

[Roland]

If you afk-skip bloodmoon anyway, because you see no reason to really fight a bloodmoon, why don't you (both) then completely turn off bloodmoon?

If it's the bloodmoon that makes you need to build a afk-safe bloodmoon (cheese) base, bloodmoon still has a reason....

I'm really ambivalent about bloodmoon. On the one hand it's useless, it doesn't drop loot, it doesn't give a solid amount of XP since you only get XP if you kill the Zs yourself but not if they killed by spikes or traps. On the other hand, preparing for the next bloodmoon is the only real task i have left. Without bloodmoon i usually reach a point with sustainable supplies in week 3 or 4. If not prepare for bloodmoon there wouldn't be any pressure on doing anything.

Speaking as a player I have no problem turning off blood moon. It’s a legit option. As a modder, however, I would like to add in incentives for participating in it rather than tell people to just turn it off. 

 

[SnowDog1942]

Speaking as a player I have no problem turning off blood moon. It’s a legit option. As a modder, however, I would like to add in incentives for participating in it rather than tell people to just turn it off. 

For a real man... that incentive is perma-death and the adrenelin rush that comes with trying not to die. 

don't need gimmick rewards, the reward is not dying and living another day

 

[Survager]

My own mod has balance problems. There is zero reason to participate in the blood moon horde other than just for the fun of it. I hope to someday set up a reward system for blood moon but until it is possible to do so there is that drawback. 

Roland. I have an idea to solve the problem of your mod. The game has starting quests that are issued automatically. Also in the game there are triggers of the beginning of the horde and the end of the horde. I'm not sure that this can be done in XML, but what do you think about issuing automatic quests for survival on the night of the horde?

The first quest can be issued as the eighth base quest. The remaining quests give out at the end of the horde night.

For example, the 8th base quest: Survive the first night of the horde.
The next quest is issued after the end of the horde night: to survive the next horde night.

These quests quests should have a type, something like: kill 3 chicken from a nail gun. They have no points on the map, and they have a trigger to complete the quest.

If the quest is completed, it must be returned to the merchant. Etc. I did not understand in detail how this can be done. This is just an idea that can push you to solve your problem.

 

[Roland]

@Orsey This was also my idea but the triggers at start of horde and end of horde are not hooked up yet. I’m waiting for that to happen and then I will attempt to create an automatic horde night quest— or at the minimum wait for someone more gifted than I to do it and then adapt that for my own project. 

For a real man... that incentive is perma-death and the adrenelin rush that comes with trying not to die. 

don't need gimmick rewards, the reward is not dying and living another day

True...but the peasants need something to distract them from the facts of their peasantry

 

[Tin]

@Orsey This was also my idea but the triggers at start of horde and end of horde are not hooked up yet. I’m waiting for that to happen and then I will attempt to create an automatic horde night quest— or at the minimum wait for someone more gifted than I to do it and then adapt that for my own project. 

True...but the peasants need something to distract them from the facts of their peasantry

Dunno but <requirement name="IsBloodMoon" operation="GTE" value="1"/> works so you could adjust zombie drops, loot quality... lots of stuff.

Not even going to suggest this for the vanilla game because they new meta would be to "prepare" access to untouched containers, then during BM you would run around clicking the loot button and "open" as many of them as you can.

Gazz gave you a solution to your dilemma about knowing if the blood moon is in effect or not.

 

[Laz Man]

Is there a way to give skill double skill points (or more) after surviving the bloodmoon? I guess that's what your comment about the missing API hooks was about. Your mod sounds very much like my wish for how the game worked. I may try it. It ties in with my overall "there is no cheese" philosophy - survival is the entire point. If you survive, you win (or at least you earn skill points). Beyond that, do whatchya like.

If you can find a way to make survival of the bloodmoon (considerably) more important/valuable than surviving a regular day, you'll have the game sorted proper, IMO. I will switch to your mod and never look back.

I guess one other change would really make it complete - the horde should never give up. It can start at 2200 on horde night, but it should only end when all scheduled zombie spawns are completed. Run away on your motorcycle? No problem, I can totally understand. But the horde will still spawn in, wherever you are. And it would require despawning unkilled horders and respawning them at the player's current location. Basically turn horde night into a "kill 200 zombies" quest that cannot be dropped or ignored. Easier said than done.

I can probably make that happen... I'll see if I can slot some time for it as I think it's a great idea instead of trying to cook up more more penalties for players who skip out on blood moons...

For a real man... that incentive is perma-death and the adrenelin rush that comes with trying not to die. 

don't need gimmick rewards, the reward is not dying and living another day

For SP sure, I'm with you.  But on MP players it's a different story.  I think blood moon incentives are better then penalities.

Dunno but <requirement name="IsBloodMoon" operation="GTE" value="1"/> works so you could adjust zombie drops, loot quality... lots of stuff.

Not even going to suggest this for the vanilla game because they new meta would be to "prepare" access to untouched containers, then during BM you would run around clicking the loot button and "open" as many of them as you can.

Does that requirement only work on loot or does it also work in the quests.xml?

 

[Roland]

Gazz gave you a solution to your dilemma about knowing if the blood moon is in effect or not.

Yes, I read that and it gave me food for thought. I could increase the loot drop rate during bloodmoon to something like 20%.
 

Laz also gave me an idea for a workaround to doing the quest. Maybe both would be good. 
 

in any case I guess I’m out of excuses to keep procrastinating. Sometimes the collaborative spirit of this community is TOO good...lol. 

 

[Ti2xGr]

I was a mod hold-out. We've been slowly adding mods (I think we're up to 27 now) over the last year. I focus on one area of the game at a time and tweak the mods to keep them within balance. Example - we have two food mods that add new recipes. After testing them locally (before adding to our server), we added them and I spent a week adjusting the levels of health, etc. that each recipe gives, what ingredients it takes to make them, etc. so they fit within the "vanilla" feel of the game. I went through a few weapons modlets and after looking at them, took out over half of the weapons that seemed way OP for the game and only added ones that were within "reason" and nerfed their power/rarity to make them fit better. We did this with all sorts of modlets along the way. I think we still have balanced gameplay. However, the advantage for us is that we are now passing day 300 and still have things to unlock, have enemies that are difficult enough to make it still challenging, even at our high levels, and have a reason to continue playing. It is helped me to be more comfortable just editing the Server XML's directly. We have a wide variety of animals, tons of zombies of varying levels of difficulty, tons of vehicles to choose from and some rare loot opportunities. Instead of adding a ton of loot drops, I just adjusted how quickly they disappear, just adding a few more in-game hours so bloodmoon isn't littered with bags of junk, but also not lacking either. We have lots of new lighting, decorations, boats, guns, larger stack sizes, and added recipes for things like sewing kits and other things that users were complaining about. We have our next map ready to release with wider roads, compopack 43, and slightly adjusted terrain and fully random biomes that bring new life to the map, before the users even discover half the secrets that we have in store for them.

Mind you - There were a few days of XML editing where I accidentally went over the 30K stack size limit, accidentally made an item too rare, or messed up a recipe. Overall though, we are having an absolute blast and would not go back. 

 

[Boidster]

I can probably make that happen... I'll see if I can slot some time for it as I think it's a great idea instead of trying to cook up more more penalties for players who skip out on blood moons...

Your "The Man" score would be as many as four tens if you did.

I focus on one area of the game at a time and tweak the mods to keep them within balance.

We moved the dogs in the CreaturePack modlet from 'hostile' to 'neutral'. Why would I want to go killing Beagles or Pugs?!? I need to figure out how to make them neutral to us, but hostile to zombies. I want doggo combat support roaming the forests!

 

[Laz Man]

Your "The Man" score would be as many as four tens if you did.

We moved the dogs in the CreaturePack modlet from 'hostile' to 'neutral'. Why would I want to go killing Beagles or Pugs?!? I need to figure out how to make them neutral to us, but hostile to zombies. I want doggo combat support roaming the forests!

Kids about to nap, lets see how much damage I can do lol....

 

[Ti2xGr]

Your "The Man" score would be as many as four tens if you did.

We moved the dogs in the CreaturePack modlet from 'hostile' to 'neutral'. Why would I want to go killing Beagles or Pugs?!? I need to figure out how to make them neutral to us, but hostile to zombies. I want doggo combat support roaming the forests!

I think everything you need is in the entityclasses.xml. They have both the timid and aggressive animal attacks and such. Modify to make them timid, not attack entityplayer and adjust range to see/attack. 

 

[Boidster]

I think everything you need is in the entityclasses.xml. They have both the timid and aggressive animal attacks and such. Modify to make them timid, not attack entityplayer and adjust range to see/attack. 

Yeah I was nosing around in there. There is interplay between tags, faction, class, IsEnemyEntity, and the AITasks that I need to figure out. I can just Leeroy Jenkins my way through it or go read/watch a tutorial since a hundred people at least in these forums already have it down pat.