PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[stallionsden]

Double devils advocate, maybe they aren't dead, they just quit moving and making noise from loss of blood. Yeah you got XP, but who says its kill xp? Maybe its a plausible victory over that zed xp.

IMO if we were debating a magic virus that brings people back from the dead or a transitory state from death to a new zombie like semi functional state, they would still probably need blood circulating to keep rigor mortis from setting in, which makes a corpse still and limbs difficult to bend. In that sense perhaps bleeding out would incapacitate a zombie. Perhaps they have a very slow heart beat so they are colder but still sort of function. With a very slow heart rate, etc they might not need as much oxygen either or be able to survive for hours underwater making them seem undead.

At any rate a virus could do some very weird stuff at a cellular level and cause an organism to function differently that what we perceive as possible. Its best not to get caught up in those details because most lack an imagination sufficient to suspend disbelief.  I like some things to be vague because those with imagination can make it fun and whatever they want. That is why we have a lot of options to make the zombie sim "feel" how you want it to without us being heavy handed and tied down to lore.

i think people are wanting a basis of the zombies.

like at the moment the game play has more a bit of this a bit of that a bit more of that over there. confusing and weird. WE have a bit of twd, a bit of space invaders, a bit of magic, a bit of yadda yadda yadda. this is a zombie game but to some the "lore" of it states many other aspects that are outside the realm of zombies and more so some "zombies" are just normal people some of us have to deal with every day stupid and brain dead lol.

As for bleeding it is weird as people have said that you can cut a arm off etc and they bleed out, yet you can blow limbs off and they keep going. as well as some of these "zs" already have large craters of damage to the body which would lead to a loss of blood leading to death but still keep going, the afforementioned cutting off limbs to blowing off limbs counteracts and confuses that argument.

And to the person who mentioned killing a zombie with a sledgehammer by hitting their foot.. well some people have brains in their big toe so that answers that one lol

 

 

[Xtrakicking]

Yeah, when you're talking in universe fiction that isn't based on staunch realism you can basically lore your way around almost anything.  I don't have a problem with many different explanations of how things could work.  I don't have a problem with folks applying realism, but cherry picking what realism you want to apply and what is ok is super subjective and so it's always a losing argument.  One that has been a talked about and openly mocked for decades in video games forums back even in the days of 56k .

Coming up with theories on a certain mystery presented in a story is one thing. Trying to cover up clear plotholes, goofs and contradictions through random explanations is another. In these circumstances, it's not cherry picking, it's just that my disbelief is not suspended.

Edit: Just to add to my comment, I don't understand why it's hard to grasp that even in fiction there has to be some limits to some things. Movies and books are examples of this. Otherwise, like you said, you can basically "lore your way around anything". Deus Ex Machina, in other words.

 

[Ralathar44]

Coming up with theories on a certain mystery presented in a story is one thing. Trying to cover up clear plotholes, goofs and contradictions through random explanations is another. In these circumstances, it's not cherry picking, it's just that my disbelief is not suspended.

A plothole is just something that is not explained, not necessarily something that is wrong.  Most things people consider plotholes can be explained with in universe lore, but the lack of an explanation =/= something not being possible.  People often limit their own creativity when trying to explain things and their possibility space is confined to a tiny box of pre-conceived ideas of how things "should" work. 

The game doesn't properly explain everything, this is something Madmole just sated because they don't have the story of everything built out and finalized just yet.  They've focused on the gameplay, and that's wise because otherwise you constantly have to retcon your story to deal with new mechanical changes.  There are not even any plotholes because there is no plot .

Once they have a story and full fledged lore written out people can knock themselves out on criticizing it.  But with it non-existent this is like complaining about how bad someone's kid is before the kid is even born.

 

[Blake_]

Double devils advocate, maybe they aren't dead, they just quit moving and making noise from loss of blood. Yeah you got XP, but who says its kill xp? Maybe its a plausible victory over that zed xp.

IMO if we were debating a magic virus that brings people back from the dead or a transitory state from death to a new zombie like semi functional state, they would still probably need blood circulating to keep rigor mortis from setting in, which makes a corpse still and limbs difficult to bend. In that sense perhaps bleeding out would incapacitate a zombie. Perhaps they have a very slow heart beat so they are colder but still sort of function. With a very slow heart rate, etc they might not need as much oxygen either or be able to survive for hours underwater making them seem undead.

At any rate a virus could do some very weird stuff at a cellular level and cause an organism to function differently that what we perceive as possible. Its best not to get caught up in those details because most lack an imagination sufficient to suspend disbelief.  I like some things to be vague because those with imagination can make it fun and whatever they want. That is why we have a lot of options to make the zombie sim "feel" how you want it to without us being heavy handed and tied down to lore.

Madmole. I said it once, I repeat it again. We don't get xp from inducing  bleed on Zds in a18.4 b4. Yes with fire. Not with bleeding. Can you please check it again? It seems you guys intend for it to happen.

Edit: It seems I was only partiatly correct. Barbed wire mod-induced bleeding does not give xp. Blade weapons do. Just found out. Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[Ralathar44]

Madmole. I said it once, I repeat it again. We don't get xp from inducing  bleed on Zds in a18.4 b4. Yes with fire. Not with bleeding. Can you please check it again? It seems you guys intend for it to happen.

Someone already showed you a video where it clearly shows you do get exp for bleeding kills.  I see no reason why we would get exp beyond just the kill. 

 

[Blake_]

Just now, Ralathar44 said:

Someone already showed you a video where it clearly shows you do get exp for bleeding kills.  You are incorrect.

Oh I see. Then it is only the barbed wire mod that I just checked. Rendering it useless. It is indeed an issue. Sorry for that and thanks

 

[Xtrakicking]

A plothole is just something that is not explained, not necessarily something that is wrong.  Most things people consider plotholes can be explained with in universe lore, but the lack of an explanation =/= something not being possible.  People often limit their own creativity when trying to explain things and their possibility space is confined to a tiny box of pre-conceived ideas of how things "should" work. 

The game doesn't properly explain everything, this is something Madmole just sated because they don't have the story of everything built out and finalized just yet.  They've focused on the gameplay, and that's wise because otherwise you constantly have to retcon your story to deal with new mechanical changes.  There are not even any plotholes because there is no plot .

Once they have a story and full fledged lore written out people can knock themselves out on criticizing it.  But with it non-existent this is like complaining about how bad someone's kid is before the kid is even born.

Actually, a plothole is indeed something that's wrong. The definition of plothole is: "In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is an inconsistency in the narrative or character development of a book, film, television show, etc."

That being said, I get that the lore of the game isn't finalized. Madmole already said that details will fall into place eventually, and with that I'm content. Even so, as of A18, these inconsisencies are present, so I give feedback on it.

 

[Ralathar44]

Actually, a plothole is indeed something that's wrong. The definition of plothole is: "In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is an inconsistency in the narrative or character development of a book, film, television show, etc."

That being said, I get that the lore of the game isn't finalized. Madmole already said that details will fall into place eventually, and with that I'm content. Even so, as of A18, these inconsisencies are present, so I give feedback on it.

Right that's the literal textbook definition of plothole, but as I mentioned people don't use plothole that way.  IE Common Parlance.  Anything that doesn't seem to make sense to someone becomes a plothole regardless of whether it is or not.  Which is why you're trying to apply plotholes to game mechanics in a game without story or lore when that's not how plotholes work.

There are not inconsistencies in the zombie lore right now because there is no zombie lore right now to have inconsistencies in.  The lore has not attempted to explain how zombies work or how to kill them or etc because it doesn't exist.  WE made up our own ideas based on how the game plays.  But the game is not mechanics as a story or mechanics as a metaphor or anything like that.  It's just a video game ass video game right now.  Until they put an official lore/story to the game it does not have plotholes by definition.  You can't have inconsistencies in the narrative or character development if no narrative or character development exists.

You have created your own headcannon lore/story just like we all have.  Those headcannon ideas can have plot holes of course, but those are fan creations and not official story/narrative/lore.

 

[Scyris]

Oh man, let's not even begin with the headshots only dilemma...

...

But yeah, headshots should be the only way to kill zombies. Lol

That depends, cutting the head off a zombie off doesn't kill it entirely, the head is still alive, you just pretty much disabled it as the rest of the body can't function without the head. Smashing a zombies foot while not killing it, would disable it somewhat so its much less of a threat. The zombie may not be "dead" but if its rendered pretty much harmless you could say it is. That can explain why torso blows work in 7dtd, you destroy enough of the bones and such that it just can't move its limbs much anymore if at all. in Z-nation the virus mutates to a point headshots do not kill zombies anymore, you have to pretty much completly crush the brain to kill them.

 

[Quantum Blue]

Wrong can be relative.  Maybe it's wrong for you, maybe it's not wrong for TFP.  It would seem that not all plot holes are considered wrong by everyone:

https://screencraft.org/2018/03/09/do-you-know-the-five-different-types-of-plot-holes/

And instead of wrong, how about 'does it matter'?  This link would seem to support MadMole's earlier post about it not mattering.  (And it does seem like he/TFP should be able to make that decision.)

https://medium.com/@ChristopherMJones/why-plot-holes-matter-and-why-they-sometimes-dont-eefa882f5e30

And, finally, replace 'Movies' with 'Video Games'...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9HivyjAKlc

 

[stallionsden]

Right that's the literal textbook definition of plothole, but as I mentioned people don't use plothole that way.  IE Common Parlance.  Anything that doesn't seem to make sense to someone becomes a plothole regardless of whether it is or not.  Which is why you're trying to apply plotholes to game mechanics in a game without story or lore when that's not how plotholes work.

There are not inconsistencies in the zombie lore right now because there is no zombie lore right now to have inconsistencies in.  The lore has not attempted to explain how zombies work or how to kill them or etc because it doesn't exist.  WE made up our own ideas based on how the game plays.  But the game is not mechanics as a story or mechanics as a metaphor or anything like that.  It's just a video game ass video game right now.  Until they put an official lore/story to the game it does not have plotholes by definition.  You can't have inconsistencies in the narrative or character development if no narrative or character development exists.

You have created your own headcannon lore/story just like we all have.  Those headcannon ideas can have plot holes of course, but those are fan creations and not official story/narrative/lore.

But when multiple people are saying the lore is all over the place and the def of a z is all over the place and that there is no specific def of a z and what tfp see as a z definately it leads to confusion to the whole and questions of this type come into play.

None of it is bagging tfp or anything. it is asking for clarity as to what type a z genre are they going for. as is the game adds as an example multiple games in one. we have sci fi, we have futuristic, we have alien, we have medieval, we have stone age, we have fantasy. so trying to work out why zs bleed out slicing and dicing, but continue when you remove limbs with a weapon like a gun it facilitates a what question.

That depends, cutting the head off a zombie off doesn't kill it entirely, the head is still alive, you just pretty much disabled it as the rest of the body can't function without the head. Smashing a zombies foot while not killing it, would disable it somewhat so its much less of a threat. The zombie may not be "dead" but if its rendered pretty much harmless you could say it is. That can explain why torso blows work in 7dtd, you destroy enough of the bones and such that it just can't move its limbs much anymore if at all. in Z-nation the virus mutates to a point headshots do not kill zombies anymore, you have to pretty much completly crush the brain to kill them.

headshotting a z are completely different to decapitating a z.

both are completely different and seperate to each other.

 

 

[Scyris]

But when multiple people are saying the lore is all over the place and the def of a z is all over the place and that there is no specific def of a z and what tfp see as a z definately it leads to confusion to the whole and questions of this type come into play.

None of it is bagging tfp or anything. it is asking for clarity as to what type a z genre are they going for. as is the game adds as an example multiple games in one. we have sci fi, we have futuristic, we have alien, we have medieval, we have stone age, we have fantasy. so trying to work out why zs bleed out slicing and dicing, but continue when you remove limbs with a weapon like a gun it facilitates a what question.

headshotting a z are completely different to decapitating a z.

both are completely different and seperate to each other.

 

Not entirely, both render a zombie effectivly harmless.

 

[stallionsden]

Fascinating.  'All plot holes are wrong.'  Wrong can be relative.  Maybe it's wrong for you, maybe it's not wrong for TFP.  It would seem that not all plot holes are considered wrong by everyone:

https://screencraft.org/2018/03/09/do-you-know-the-five-different-types-of-plot-holes/

And instead of wrong, how about 'does it matter'?  This link would seem to support MadMole's earlier post about it not mattering.  (And it does seem like he should be able to make that decision.)

https://medium.com/@ChristopherMJones/why-plot-holes-matter-and-why-they-sometimes-dont-eefa882f5e30

And, finally, replace 'Movies' with 'Video Games'...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9HivyjAKlc

remembering that is that opinion of that person whom wrote it. Who could be completely wrong, so the first there again applies

Not entirely, both render a zombie effectivly harmless.

wrong a headshot completely nullifies a zombie attacking. Decapitating a zombie only makes it not be able to chase you but if one were to go in its vicinity or another player used it it can still make you turn into a zombie.

 

[Xtrakicking]

You can't have inconsistencies in the narrative or character development if no narrative or character development exists.

[SIZE=1.4rem]Except there IS a narrative, to some extent. Just by playing the game, a story begins to unfold. You're a survivor in Arizona, in the year 2034, after a third world war, and in a zombie apocalypse caused by an unknown virus. Just with this small synopsis, some rules are already set. In other words, even if the devs haven't explicitly established all and every piece of the lore, this doesn't mean there can't be inconsistencies with what we already have. Following your logic, we could argue that seeing trees grow wings and fly out into the sky during horde night would be acceptable and not inconsistent or illogical at all, because there is no lore (exaggerated example, but you get my point).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1.4rem]At any rate, I think it's best to leave it here.[/SIZE]

 

[XCOUNTRY]

Hey I just tested this and can confirm, bleeding kills with barb-wire mod installed do not give XP. (I'll put this in the bug report section)

 

[unholyjoe]

snipped-

And, finally, replace 'Movies' with 'Video Games'...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9HivyjAKlc

i dont generally watch youtube links in forums because so many things i dont want to see. i loved this one tho.

Hey I just tested this and can confirm, bleeding kills with barb-wire mod installed do not give XP. (I'll put this in the bug report section)

hmmm which is greater 6 or 1/2 doz.... 

Spoiler

it doesnt matter

 

[Ralathar44]

None of it is bagging tfp or anything. it is asking for clarity as to what type a z genre are they going for. as is the game adds as an example multiple games in one. we have sci fi, we have futuristic, we have alien, we have medieval, we have stone age, we have fantasy. so trying to work out why zs bleed out slicing and dicing, but continue when you remove limbs with a weapon like a gun it facilitates a what question.

Why do they have to be aiming at any type of zombie genre?  It's a survival game not a book or movie.  The same way Minecraft didn't have any lore for years and years until story mode.  And indeed why would they have to choose an existing genre of zombies?  Why couldn't they have their own unique variant of zombies?  You don't need to know their life stories or biologies or anything, build/kill/survive, that's the game.  Until such point they add lore and story anyways.  Also, what you mentioned are settings, not genres.  Sci Fi is the only genre you mentioned, the rest are settings or time periods.

As far as to why limbs don't cause bleeding when blown off?  First you need to explain how a 9mm round can explode an arm like you hit the arm with a small grenade.  Bullets don't work like that.  If we were REALLY concerned about accuracy you wouldn't be able to blow off an arm with anything smaller than a 50 cal.  Similarly clubs, sledgehammers, knives, spear stabs, stun batons, etc would not blow off an arm.   If the bleeding needs to be accurate and we're going to that level of nuance then it needs to be consistent, after all we are complaining about consistency right?

 

[Xtrakicking]

And, finally, replace 'Movies' with 'Video Games'...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9HivyjAKlc

My response to that video would be the most liked comment on it.

 

[quyxkh]

[SIZE=1.4rem]Following your logic, we could argue that seeing trees grow wings and fly out into the sky during horde night would be acceptable and not inconsistent or ilogical at all,[/SIZE]

Depends on what you've been eating. Look at all the happy creatures dancing on the lawn.

 

[Ralathar44]

[SIZE=1.4rem]Following your logic, we could argue that seeing trees grow wings and fly out into the sky during horde night would be acceptable and not inconsistent or illogical at all, because there is no lore (exaggerated example, but you get my point).[/SIZE]

Perfect example of not explained but not necessarily illogical but rather you living in a limited creative space. 

Explanation requiring no new lore at all but instead just a well designed graphic model:  The tree swoops down to attack you with it's claws.  That's right claws.  When it gets close you notice that the thing you thought was a tree was actually a camouflaged zombie with an appearance similar to a wight underneath the exterior camouflage and the exposed inner sections you couldn't see when it was stationary softly glow with radiation.  The game has told you nothing but it appears that some of the zombies exposed to radiation have evolved to "mimic" other objects.  After surviving the encounter I let out a nervous laugh, my friend laughed too, the door laughed, we shot the door.

Nature actually does this kind of stuff all the time.  I'd imagine a walking stick bug looked rather illogical to the first person who saw a stick move and thought it was possessed .